GR18-AWM Genocide Variant vs 30 Civs.

[Mumpulus]

@M60A3TTS: I don't think we explicitly agreed on using or not using ICS. At one point, some towns were settled close because of the pressure, and then some more were founded close to fill some small gaps. I think we all agree that it isn't pretty. Maybe next time, Greebley will add a rule not to do it. As it stands now, I think it has made things only very slightly easier. So I agree the game is tainted (a bit), but I still think it will be a feat if we pull it off.

@Emp. Killyouall: The walls don't cost us anything in upkeep, so there's definitely no hurry. I like to only sell them at some specific time when the little extra cash can make a big difference. E.g. if we would have to run negative gpt to get a tech a crucial turn earlier and lacked the gold reserve to do so. Think of it as a second gold reserve, that you don't touch until really necessary.

@Own: In my opinion, the first part of the game was more difficult because of the many civs we met. Now, it's difficult because of the bad lands we have. We're especially hurting for commerce. I think we only have 3 or 4 cities with commerce multiplier buildings in them, because in the other cities it's just not worth it. If we would have had just one nice long river, I think we would have been tech leaders by now. Something I forget to mention in the log: the Sumerians have just started Sistines. The land shape is also not helping, and our front line will only grow in the near future I fear. Add to that the mountains and the jungle ... well, you get the picture.

 

[markh]

Hi own,

It is tougher than the AWE game as we have had a not so beautiful start and what is much more important the number of early met civs. We are well in the Medieval era and have not killed a single AI. Expanding is very difficult and that is what matters in AW. The genocide effect has not really been a matter. We would have not kept towns as we are not about to kill an AI, so flips would have been quite likely. Maybe the slaves would have been nice as costfree workers, but that is not an important matter with such a "small" empire (in relation to our previous games). If this would have been AWE the game would have been over already.

 

[Mumpulus]

If this would have been AWE the game would have been over already.

That reminds me of another observation I wanted to make but forgot earlier: the fact that this is a monarch game clearly shows, and we should constantly keep it in mind. What I mean to say is: do not overestimate enemy strength, we can take a calculated risk here and there. I tried this at one point with the settler stack toward Bingol and got bitten, but there have been instances where it has payed off to be bold (whereas on emperor or DG, it would have been overextending). There's no feeling of imminent collapse here. No knight stacks yet and all that...

 

[markh]

I wouldn't underestimate the Monarch AI in terms of unit numbers. What you say is right for the AIs we are already fighting as we just see freshly produced units, but we have not heard of any AI being killed, so the other unmet AIs built up their armies for centuries. I think we will soon see a rush of Russian units. We now get their fastmovers, but I would expect a decent stack of slow movers soon. IIRC in our first AWM on such a map the AIs we met later on had quite large stacks. Stacks that would easily kill us in our current situation.

 

[Greebley]

Actually I have no problem with ICS. In the very earliest versions of civ III it was an exploit, but hasn't been for a long time - now it is a fairly poor strategy that only has 2 benefits - higher unit support and distance 2. Distance 2 is actually nice on the front line in that units can get between one city and the next and still attack. So its a trade-off like everything else in the game. I use it when the situation calls for it.

I have played in other SG's that have been worse than this with cities stuffed in every possible location that isn't next to another city for unit support. That is what I would call ICS (well actually even that isn't true ICS where you specifically make a grid of cities at distance 2 for max density, but its close enough to be called it). This is just a game with some locations with distances less than 3.

In any case I got it. I will probably only be able to play a few turns.

 

[Mumpulus]

Markh, we've already seen quite some Russian units, and only three knights so far. I hope you're wrong about this, because combined with the Hittites they could cause trouble. Let's say that with the information I got from my last set, I'm 80% sure that their initial rush is at its high point, or even past it.

As far as unmet civs goes, I'm sure you're right. But we're bound to be better prepared for that by the time we meet them (knock on wood).

 

[vmxa]

We ran into trouble before any of the new variant rules came into play. It is the map that is causing the grief for now. The rules will make coming back take longer, mainly no slaves and no captured towns.

Having about 9 civs so soon and so close, is what made it rough. We never got much of an expansion, because we were being sieged. Normally you have more time and the fewer civs, lets you recover after the first wave.

No recovery here as another civ turned up and with now 10 civ sending in units, they do not have to be able to replace them real fast.

This has kept us from getting into the Middle Ages. We could have had some MDI armies and pikes on defense. Spears cannot do it now with MDI and Knights.

 

[Greebley]

I meant to mention that I disagree about skipping chivalry. Having knight Armies a hundred turns earlier than Cavalry is well worth the short time it takes to research a single tech. Also Knights all can be upgraded for only 30 gold which is also well worth it. We will have a much larger cav force by researching Chivalry than we would going straight for it due to upgrades. We essentially start building pre-Cavs upon getting Chivalry instead of waiting for Mil Tradition by upgrading.

I would research Feudalism, Monarchy, revolt, Chivalry. Getting Monotheism makes it even more attactive.

 

[choxorn]

Also Knights all can be upgraded for only 30 gold.

lurker's comment: Yeah, but it costs 120 gold to upgrade a Horse to a Knight. It costs 150 gold to upgrade a Horse to a Cav, not much more. Though I agree, Knights may be useful in the short term.

 

[ThERat]

Yeah, but it costs 120 gold to upgrade a Horse to a Knight. It costs 150 gold to upgrade a Horse to a Cav, not much more. Though I agree, Knights may be useful in the short term.

I have yet to see an AW game where cash was so plentiful to be able to upgrade horses. It's surely the worst choice. Knights might be slow builds, but it's better to have stronger and less units so as to reduce unit costs.
Knight armies are so much better than anything comparable at that tech stage. Their defense 3 makes them really viable defenses at times of crisis.

 

[vmxa]

The cost to upgrade horses is not important as none will be or nearly none. You cannot spare the cash. Knights, will be upgraded later though.

Knights are a better way as it will take to long to get to cavs and Knight armies are going to save the day.

We probably have not much more than 6 horses and they will be nice MP's for the rest of the game. It is not until you get to the point that you are razing towns and getting hundreds in gold that you can afford much in the way of upgrades.

The upgrades will all come slowing before that.

 

[Mumpulus]

Since we already have monotheism, the detour for chivalry isn't that big a deal, I agree. And I do concur that the better defense, higher speed and lowered unit support are very important. So I will gladly concede on this issue; it is clear that we'll have a team consensus on this.

But I still don't believe in the upgrade argument. Not because we won't have the money, but because we won't have the knights. The knights we build before MT will either die or end up in armies. Mump3 clearly showed that: I went over the turn logs and I think about 4 or 5 knights were upgraded. Actual prebuilds timed for MT gave us many more cavs than that, and in this game with the larger scale, that will be even more pronounced.

In any case, I fully agree on the tech path Greebley proposed.

 

[Greebley]

Its looking like my time to play will be too short to do anything, so I am going to go for a skip.

Roster:
Greebley - Out until 26th or 27th
NP - Can play the 20th - On Deck?
markh - Up
ThERat -
vxma
Mumpulus

I must say the shape of this continent is one of the hardest I have ever seen. There are no short lines anywhere.

It looks like we have only 2 1/2 civs to the south though, so I would try to expand that way. The current northern front is likely a good choke once we take out the Vikings, Ottomans and Dutch. There is likely a second northern front and the water to the east is an inland sea. Still it will be shorter than the current front with more land.

So expanding first south and then eastward around the sea, while keeping our northern front exactly as is seems easiest to me.

 

[markh]

I got it, but I have to finish another game today first. I can start this tomorrow.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

lurker's comment: @Own: it truly is the balance - no, the abundance - of both that keeps these guys together.

This makes me wish I wasn't into 2 jobs, an internship and a graduate degree so I'd have the time to take a stab here and there. The ottoman seem to have fairly good lands on plains with rivers, sugars, wheats (irrig is less worker-intensive than mines, too) and controlling the mountain ridge would be tactically good so that's where I'd look for the holy grail.

Will keep reading with envy

 

[Ansar]

Edit: Sorry Beorn.

 

[ThERat]

markh, any progress?

 

[markh]

I'll finish my set today. I will post later today.

 

[Mumpulus]

FYI: I will be away (for business, not vacation) from the 25th until the 1st.

 

[markh]

IBT : a gallic dies attacking Song of Joy, but almost kills the army
a gallic archer dies attacking an exposed sword, a Sumerian longbow kills the sword
another exposed sword is killed by another Sumerian longbow
an Otto MDI kills a spear in Witness Song

The Spanish and Vikings drop an archer and a sword at the preferred dropzones

1) 1295AD : We have 12 Otto MDIs threatening Witness Song standing on a mountain, will abandon the town as there is no way we can hold it
Gone Bananas is also a lost case with 4 possible MDI attacks and another Sumerian sword threatening the town
Song of Joy also does not look very promising, 1 gallic and several wounded gallics could attack, but I leave the town with a spear and a wounded sword as I count on Brennus to retreat the wounded gallics

raze Bingol and we get back three workers back with it

IBT : a gallic kills the spear in Some Song, the wounded gallics retreat, the wounded sword in Some Song defends against a Dutch archer and holds the town
3 gallics attack Medieawon and almost kill the army there

the Vikings drop another three units at the dropzone

The Carthaginians arrive with 10 swords and a Num near Westwall

2) 1300AD : just killing units whereever possible and shuffle units

IBT : Carthage moves 15 swords to Westwall, the Hittites add 3 MDIs and a longbow

2 new Viking swords and a Hittite pike are dropped at Paegam

3) 1305AD : get reinforcements to Song of Joy, so it looks a little more safe there
All the Otto MDIs came down from the mountain range towards our SW cities, a few are killed now
two armies are moved to Westwall to deal with the Carthaginian threat, our cats there don't do much, so it will be a slaughter in the next IBT

IBT : quite a number of gallics arrive from the North
the Otto MDIs move back into the mountains
The Carthage units do not attack Westwall, but bypass it NE and SW, COWARDS !!!!!!

The Vikings drop more units

4) 1310AD : do some cleaning and our entire empire is almost inruderfree

IBT : not so good. Gallics nearly overrun Pyongson. a single redlined sword holds the town
The Otto MDIs decide to come down from the mountains again

5) 1315AD : get a leader and we have another army

IBT : not much, we lose a sword defending a city
the Ottomans still don't know what to do with their MDIs and move them headlessly, easier for us kill them

6) 1320AD : another MGL, rush a market in Some Song
raze Izmit and get back some workers

Our North, Northwest is still under pressure. In the South we have another army now (still to be filled with two swords) and once we got rid of the remaining Otto MDIs we should be able to put some pressure on the Vikings and Ottomans.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/47099/GR18_AD1320.SAV