GR22 - AWDG vs 30 Civs (try 2 of ?)

[ThERat]

I think I have the honor to be the one who lost us the game

barricades are nice but when they make the enemy go after your capital...



Too many units..and we have too few, we are swarmed by everyone at all fronts...Maybe someone wants to try and play from the las save by vmxa...maybe you can do better than me

 

[ThERat]

For the record

Pre-Turn
the turn is obviously no done as many workers are threatened
cut a forest and move mace army out towards Canterbury, either we expand or we die
start a barricade at Yax, we need to cut off our hinterland
army at Yax takes out swiss merc and immortal
take out 1 more immortal, mace and pike, now we have sealed the northern passage

IT no attack as there are too many empty cities. Dutch go for Qiurigua

1. 410AD
finish the barricades between Yax and Quirigua, move army into that city as there are too many dutch units
clear and bombard some units in the north taking out a merc
dye army takes out 2 maces next to Bonampak, defeat 2 more but at the cost of a mace
two mercs go down at Quirigua

can't attack more as we would expose units

IT well, disaster strikes as Dutch go after our capital and easily defeat 4 units there, they even attack one barricade taking out a pike
At Bonampak the Babs take out 2 pikes and a JT...

 

[Greebley]

Ah well, we made a good run for the money.

This variant may not be winnable unless we have a more unified front line that we can push forward from and control. The only other alternative would be immediate attack and gain AI towns early, but again that means a more limited front so it may be the same thing.

Total lack of Lux also hurt, but was not the killer since we got the GLib.

So my feeling is that this one is at an end and that if we want to try again, we need the right kind of start.

Note that I also feel a good defensive UU is not the way to go. It is clear we cannot sit around and defend (Sumeria might be the only exception with its extremely cheap UU - you can use it offensively very early on to shut down an AI's workers).

 

[Matt_G]

Yes the right start will be critical.
I could roll a start for you guys if you like.
Check it out in the editor for you and make sure it's viable.
If you want me to do that, just let me know what conditions you would like the start to meet.
i.e. corner, maybe small initial front, iron and horsies, lux or 2, and of course what civ you want.
This way no one on the team would have spoiler info.
I have the biq file for this scenario so it wouldn't be a problem.

 

[vmxa]

It was a very near untenable situation, I would expect. Most of the time I knew that they could decide to come for a town and end it, but they choose to go for empty towns.

It would be rough no matter as long as we are going to face 5 or more civs and those civ do not go to war with anyone else.

We got most of the things we needed, but the numbers were daunting. Figure we only saw horses from England, it could have been worse as we had no means to kill them, without exposure other than an army.

More bombardment units would help, but how to get them and still have units to fight with, I do not know.

The traits were decent, Ind helped us get roads up and AG lets us grow and stave off starving when pressed. The JT was good for us as we did not have to research for spears and did not have to cover archers as the JT covered itself.

One additional value in Rome is the cheap barracks and starts with Alpha. The 30 shields Legion is just great as we get the attack and the pike rolled into one.

ThERat, no one lost the game, it just was not winnable. I got every break I could ask for with only one bad loss and it was still not enough. The HE and FP and a Dye up, but it did not matter as I could not get enough attackers, bombardment or defenders build, let alone expand.

I even whipped out two units and thought hard about adding in the settler to whip out another, but I decide that was just too desperate.

 

[vmxa]

I would add one thing about the land. Those mountains did not help us at all. The desert was no friend either. The mountains would have been of help to slow 2 or 3 move units, but we only saw 1 move units, in that direction.

So we gained no tactical help and it made it nearly impossible to attack incoming on mountains and hills. Worse, we could not get back inside, if we did and won, so we have to find time where no adjacent tiles allowed a counter attack.

Add to that the fact that you cannot work mountians due to lack of food and the time needed to improve them. Not that it matter as we could not keep them free to be worked.

We did get pretty far, given the forces bearing down.

 

[Northern Pike]

Yes, there were just too many enemy units around at the end, and even the most exact tactical play couldn't save us. No one needs to regret his decisions.

I wish we'd recognized the barricade-building power of our underemployed slaves in time to use it systematically, rather than as a desperate last resort. I'm not claiming that this would have saved the game, but we might have learned something, and I'm sorry that we left that bullet in the gun.

I don't think that we would have needed much better luck to start expanding in this game--just more early Leaders, above all, or perhaps fewer neighbours with early Golden Ages.

 

[TheOverseer714]

lurker's comment: Nice try guys, you did about as well as humanly possible. DG might just be the upper limit for this set-up, the AI just has so many advantages, and 30 opponents is just icing on the cake. Before giving up though, I would try 2 more tribes besides Rome. Persia has an early and powerful UU with good traits, and the Celts have the 2 move sword and also decent traits. Beyond that, geography has alot to do with things also, as Matt G pointed out. You might try an archipelago map, whch would limit the number of close neighbors that can walk troops in. Good luck, I know you guys can do it!

 

[vmxa]

Island maps would probably kill us in this configuration. I say that, because the one thing we must have is early leaders. We may get lucky, but then the second thing kicks in, that we have to conquest them.

That would be a ticking clock that I doubt could be beat. If we landed on a smaller continent, with maybe 3 others, then you can get those leaders, but I am not sure about the logistics of getting every island.

Continents maps can be done, but you could still end up with 6 civs next to and in the same boat we had.

 

[vmxa]

I wish we'd recognized the barricade-building power of our underemployed slaves in time to use it systematically, rather than as a desperate last resort. I'm not claiming that this would have saved the game, but we might have learned something, and I'm sorry that we left that bullet in the gun.

The barricade use would be helpful, if we could get them to attack some place. They just stop attacking once you had 2 pikes, one elite. At least till the very end and they had many units.

The 2's and 3's bypassed us, but I for one was not brave enough to try to entice them with a weaker setup. Once they bypassed us with stack of 5 to 12, it was too much.

We may have gotten some real use out of cades, if we switched back to only making pikes. Them we maybe could have gotten enough cades up to do some damage.

I am thinking that they either attack and take some losses or pass the ZoC and take some dings. Them we could finish them off. Not sure if any of that could be done though, let alone if it would work.

Otherwise we need to get out and raze towns, but it is going to be tough, with just jt armies that we had. By the time you had an MDI army, we were busier than a one handed paper hanger with a doze of the crabs.

I do think it can be done, but we need a few things to happen, so that means a lot of frogs have to kissed, before a princess is found.

The part I keep over looking is that even if we had gotten to this point with a bit better shape, we were about see Knights and Muskets from someone.

I do wonder if we had added in a workers and rushed a bunch more trebs in a size 1 town, if 10 more trebs would have made an impact. Tikal was the only place that had enough to matter. I just do not know.

 

[darski]

lurker's comment: Sorry guys! You gave it everything but some starts and plays are just tough.

 

[Northern Pike]

The barricade use would be helpful, if we could get them to attack some place. They just stop attacking once you had 2 pikes, one elite.

As I conceive of this strategy, we wouldn't try to get our enemies to attack barricades; rather, we'd exploit their reluctance to attack them to close off portions of the front. Then, in the ideal case, traffic jams would reduce our enemies' effective strength; they'd lose a lot of HP moving laterally through the barricades' zones of control; and we could provoke them into attacking armies in cities.

 

[Greebley]

On Matt's offer, what do you think we would need?

I was thinking a U shaped area no more than a screen across or a choke no more than that across. I think Iron and Horse would be important and at least 1 lux no more than a screen away.

Not sure on what civ. Mayans are the only one to use the Barracade structure. otherwise you really don't have sufficient workers, but they may not be the best for demigod.

vxma's suggestion of the Romans seems worth a try though, with close Iron and some kind of choke, it might be doable.

Would want a river if we could get it for more science and a decent food start.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[ThERat]

I like Matt's offer.

As said before, Rome can be powerful if iron is nearby. Going for BW -> IW before heading for masonry -> alpha -> writing and lit with the Glib should be doable.

As for the map, we should be on a big continent with 3-5 luxes and being located in a strategically fine position with some natural chokes and that sort of stuff. Once we have passed the initial stage and can continue to expand while battling it out should be fine.

Important is to set no barbs and maybe no SGL's?

 

[vmxa]

I am good with whatever you come up with, all we can do is see how it goes.

M60, did you do anything with the start you rolled?

NP it seems like it would do some good by either stopping them or forcing everyone to queue up. We probably would need 10 from just past Tikal around to Lag, giving at least the Dutch a lot farther to go or run the gauntlet.

Building them is no problem, but manning them could be, again we would have to keep making pikes with maybe one place doing MDI's.

Still in the end we need them to attack a town and die as we just did not have enough units to kill everyone.

 

[Matt_G]

I think I have just the map you guys need.
Perhaps a second opinion would be wise.

Is there anyone I could send the biq file to so they could look at it and render a second judgement?
Obviously it would need to be someone not playing and whose opinion you all trust.

 

[Northern Pike]

Good to hear.

Perhaps we could request a second opinion from someone who's played in these games but isn't on the team right now--Beorn, say, or Mumpulus?

 

[Mumpulus]

Sure, I'd gladly take a look. I'll PM with Matt.

 

[Northern Pike]

That's great--thanks a lot.

 

[Matt_G]

Mumpulus and I have agreed that this map will work.

Question now is this.
Do you want me to roll the start, or do you guys want the biq file and roll it yourselves?
If you want me to roll it, let me know which civ you want.
Also I would assume the following settings:
Demigod of course.
Wonder victory off.
Respawn off.
Culture flips on.
Sci Leaders...not sure.
Culture linked starts...not sure.

I can PM the start or the biq to Greebley once I hear which way you guys want it.