Great Leader Usage: Richthoffen

[Eklektikos]

The good news is that tonight's turn chat produced a Great Leader. The bad news is that we still don't have a clear decision made as to what it should be used for. This needs to be remedied by Sunday's Turn Chat.

Our options are as follows:

• Create an Army
• Rush the Sistine Chapel
• Rush Leonardo's Workshop
• Rush the Forbidden Palace
• Rush build a new Palace to relocate our existing capital

So to what end should the Red Baron turn his talents and, just as importantly, where?

Please discuss

 

[Chieftess]

I'm really torn between sistine and FP. On the one hand, we need lots of culture (and hapiness). On the other hand, we could really use the Japanese lands...

 

[Stuck_as_a_Mac]

LEO!!!
And regarding spots: I nominate Octavianum as the location. Not just for my egos sake, but for location, closeness and existing buildings.
*Pulls up Octavianum*
Octavainum. Size 7, to be size 8 in one turn. Will become our largest city. Home to one wonder all ready, The much loved (and used) Great Library.
When courthouse is complete in 12-15 turns, will have over 10 shields in production.
This city, with the adition of Leos, could put it in the top 5 of Cities. Now wouldnt that be great?
As governor of Rhineland, I urge you, Mr President, to not only build Leonardo Da Vinci's Workshop for Fanatika, but to put it in Octavianum

 

[Grandmaster]

I'm torn dow the middle between Leonardo and Michaelangelo. As a military-minded civ, the ability to upgrade at half price would be helpful (soon enough we'll be upgrading Pikes to Muskets and Knights to Cavalry.) However, the SC would differently add something our rather culture-barren landscape, and not to mention the happiness factor.... your call. I'd be happy either way.

 

[Veera Anlai]

Not being a warhawk, I much prefer the Sistine Chapel. Who doesn't like pictures of famous biblical figures in the nude?

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Veera Anlai
Not being a warhawk, I much prefer the Sistine Chapel. Who doesn't like pictures of famous biblical figures in the nude?

How about we paint a picture of the penguin in all his glory on the ceiling of Leonardo's workshop?

I think we'd benefit more from Leo's. The Sistine Chapel is great but I don't us building cathedrals everywhere. I'd love to move the capital instantly to give us a better production base but we'll soon be facing the problem of upgrading spearmen to musketmen. I say we rush Leo's in any city that Richtoffen can reach next turn - since he can't reach any cities now.

 

[GenMarshall]

Rush build the Leonardo's Workshop with the Red Baron

 

[Shaitan]

Forbidden Palace. This will increase our production and income by over 40%. Yes, we could build it by ourselves but realistically that is not going to happen. We need the Forbidden Palace and we need it pronto.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Shaitan
Forbidden Palace. This will increase our production and income by over 40%. Yes, we could build it by ourselves but realistically that is not going to happen. We need the Forbidden Palace and we need it pronto.

Yes, building the forbidden palace quickly and in any city we like would give us a huge, immediate benefit over the other civs. It would allow us to expand our culture through easy construction of cultural buildings, allow some of the commerce from distant cities to line our coffers, increase our production of military units throughout our empire, and just generally make all of our lands produce more efficiently.

Leonardo's workshop would be nice, but with a territory as large as ours is going to be, the cost of upgrading units is not going to kill our economy, especially once our western cities start actually sending their tax money to the capital due to the construction of the forbidden palace..

The Sistine Chapel is honestly my favorite wonder, and its power is not to be underestimated. However, until we have constructed a forbidden palace, only a few of our cities are going to have the production necessary to build a cathedral in any reasonable amount of time.

I think my opinion is clear.

 

[Plexus]

Sistine! 'nuff said

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

I would like to see the Forbidden Palace. I would recommend building it in a former Japanese city. The fertle lands in that vicinity will quickly become powerful cities with the boost from the FP.

 

[Cyc]

OK, after looking at the save and after reading everyone's opinion of what we should do as far as the next Great Leader, I have come up with a plan. Tell me what you think...

This plan we eventually put the Sistine Chapel and the Forbidden Palace in Bremershaven and the new Palace in Kyoto. The reasons I've used these two cities is because they are large and pwerful and 16-17 Tiles apart, which is pretty good. 15 Tiles is optimum for me in my games. Also both these cities are surrounded by 7 cities each. I considered Octavinium, but the Great library is pretty much dead weight now and doesn't increase in Cultural value or even count as a Wonder. OK...

First, send the Great Leader to Bremershaven 4 turns. By this time, the Knight being built in Bremer will be done and we can start on the Sistine Chapel, which will be rushed on turn #5 with the Great Leader. We then start the forbidden Palace in Bremer on the next turn, which will be complete in 20 turns. This is a grand total of 25 turns, in which time we need to achieve a new Great Leader. With that new GL we will hurry the new Palace in Kyoto.

This plan will give us a very strong production AND Cultural base for the Nation. It will take a little time and a little luck, but I think it's the way to go. BTW, this plan would have to be used with a continuing war effort against Japan to eliminate their growing Cultural threat on our Western cities. Once they are reduced to a non-threat status, the war would not be a prime factor.

 

[roadcage]

Leo's would be a disaster. Since you already have the Great Library and are a Scientific Militaristic Civ, it would trigger your Golden Age. Which would be a waste because of your little bitty cities.

 

[naervod]

I think we should do Sistine or FP. I am so torn. I think both have benefits and disadvantages. I am leaning towards the FP because it acts as a second capital, which we need for our ever expanding nation.

 

[Furry Spatula]

I'd say sistine. We can always build a FP if other nations have them. With Sistine we can't. And if i remember correctly, sistine doesn't expire. So if we can stave off culture flipping then go with sistine.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

I haven't looked at the save yet but if things are going as planned, then we have more Elite units at Japan's doorstep waiting to be elevated. I say we should send the leader to Kyoto and build the FP right now. Time is of the essence and we should roll the Leader dice while they are hot. Plus, we get the production and commerce benefit immediately.

This may change once I look at the save, but I doubt it. BTW, what is the reasoning for the Palace flip-flop? I agree with the two cities chosen, but don't see the reason to move all of our government officials all the way across the country to Kyoto. Aesthetics, I know, but believability is important to me in Civ3. Those worried about a culture flip won't have to fret for long if we load Kyoto up with the works(library, temple etc.) upon completion of the FP.

 

[Cyc]

Well, I see your point DZ, and I'm not one for palace relocations either, but in this instance it may be the most beneficial way to go. We could definitely use the Sistine Chapel, as we are about to grow as a Nation, and will need the Chapel until the end of the game. We also need the FP, but the FP is not one of the longer Wonder builds, in fact it can be knocked out fairly quickly, as I explained above (25 turns). If this is built next to Bavaria on its own without the help of a GL, we can use future GL's for more important and expensive Wonders. You can get the GL to Kyoto in 2 turns and I can get the GL to Bremershave in 4 turns, so there's not much of a discrepancy as far a turns go. And as I said by relocating the Palace we would be better utilizing the corruption circumference aroung the Capital. Plus I believe Kyoto will be able to grow in size much larger than Bavaria. So, in a nut shell, I just see too many advantages in the relocation.

 

[Plexus]

I'm with the Kyoto palace relocation, as long as we still build sistine, or at least try to.

 

[eyrei]

My main argument against building the Sistine Chapel is that it provides no immediate benefit. As far as I know, we do not have a single cathedral.

On this level, we cannot count on being alive for any extended period of time, it is much, much harder to remain competitive than it is to stay alive. Remaining competitive requires that we have a gigantic empire, a huge military and massive amounts of commerce. To achieve this, we are going to have to conquer our neighbors, who have a large production bonus. It is not enough that we control a huge amount of land. That land must also produce shields and commerce for us to maintain the military superiority that we enjoy now. We will fall behind quickly if we build something other than the FP, and then are not lucky enough to get another great leader. I do not want to count on this occurring, and while the Sistine Chapel is a very powerful wonder, it is not worth the risk. Remember, we are a monarchy, and so we can use 3 units as police in each city. This can be achieved more quickly and cheaply than building cathedrals. And what will become of our military when all our production is aimed at cathedrals? 'God' is not going to defend us from our enemies.

We can move the capital if we wish later, when we are more certain of the extent and direction of our expansion. Right now, our western cities produce almost nothing, and we can rectify that very easily by using this leader to build the FP.

 

[FortyJ]

I've tried to sleep on this issue, hoping that a refreshed mind (as if...) would provide me the clear and obvious course of action for this opportunity. Unfortunately, I don't believe that there is a "perfect" and obvious course of action to take:

Army
We no longer need a victorious army as we have already accomplished this feat. Building an army of knights would be a nice thing to have, but considering the alternatives, I believe this would be a waste of potential for this leader.

Sistine Chapel
doubles the effects of Cathedrals (each one makes 6 people content), 6 culture per turn
A very nice option, but Eyrei makes a good point with respect to the likelihood of building cathedrals. However, I do see us building cathedrals in the center core of our empire. Those larger cities will need something more than three troops to keep the peace. Plus, a cathedral in some of our larger, centralized cities will allow us to put more troops on the front lines. Not to mention, the six culture per turn will help increase our overall culture which will help flip some of those pesky border cities to our side.

Leonardo's Workshop
1/2 price upgrades, 2 culture per turn, possible Golden Age
Yummy. As Domestic Leader of our militaristic nation, this appears to be a no-brainer at first. We will need to keep our troops up-to-date and the 1/2 price benefit of this wonder will make this task less daunting. However, there is a strong likelihood of this wonder triggering our Golden Age, which we may not be primed to take advantage of due to the rampant corruption and waste throughout the empire.

Forbidden Palace
second palace (reduced corruption), 2 culture per turn, cost=200
The reduction of waste and corruption is certainly a priority, but is rushing this small wonder really necessary? If we are committed to building the FP and moving the Palace to another region, then using the leader for the FP seems like a waste. On the other hand, if we rush the FP in a distant city, then it makes more sense.

Palace (relocate capitol)
reduces corruption/waste, 1 culture per turn, cost=100
Without a Forbidden Palace somewhere, rushing (or for that matter, building) a palace in another city would not really solve our corruption problems, hence a waste of our leader.

=====

I apologize for subjecting all of you to the wanderings of my mind, but I was hoping that by focusing on each option individually, one may rise to the top as the obvious choice.

I think that building an army or rushing the palace with this leader would be unwise. While we would likely benefit from either of these options, these benefits clearly pale in comparison to those bestowed upon us by the other available options.

While I hope that we can eventually get Leo's Workshop, I believe that the risk of triggering the Golden Age is too great considering our current situation. We should take steps to reduce our corruption and waste before entering into our Golden Age.

Finally, rushing the FP in Kyoto has appeal as well, assuming that we can capture the rest of the Japanese cities. Failure to do so would waste the anti-corruption benefits of the FP.

Therefore, I believe we should use the leader to rush the Sistene Chapel. I'd rather have JS Bachs, but my daddy always told me that beggars can't be choosers, so we'll take what we can get . True, much of the benefits will not be felt for some turns to come, but the overall culture benefits will assist us in our culture wars taking place in the southeast.

I would suggest not building it in Bremershaven, though. I would rather switch Bremershaven to a Forbidden Palace immediately and rush the Chapel in another town (perhaps New Falcon's Nest) so that we can start trying for another leader as soon as possible.