Great Leader Usage: Richthoffen

[Donovan Zoi]

@Cyc and FortyJ- but wouldn't it be nice to get that extra production now? Kyoto is going to be a powerhouse. With your plan, we get two palaces right next to each other with no plan for the Kyoto palace in the forseeable future - this leaves a corrupt West with no production for quite some time. Not to mention I have 3 Elite units sitting outside of Novgorod and some Elites around Tokyo. I really don't want them to attack unless they have the opportunity to produce another Great Leader. Build the FP in Kyoto now and I can have my units conquer the cities it will influence alot sooner, rather than have them mill about the city limits waiting to get noticed by some Japanese archer who sat on a horseshoe earlier that day.

My main reasons for FP in Kyoto:

1. We give Richthoffen a mission faster, my troops can level Japan faster. I don't want to waste my Elite attacks if he's still around.

2. Gives immediate production capability in the West, which will hasten our ability to counter cultural and military threats in that region. Imagine not having to rush-build knights in that area if Hammy acts up.

3. If we do this, I will get us Japan's surrounding cities(and will have the production to back that pledge); more attacks = more chances for another GL.

4. With a drop in corruption, Leonardo's may be considered as an option without fear of the Golden Age .

5. Two palaces so close together(Bavaria and Bremershaven) do not make sense without a plan for the palace in Kyoto. And the only way we will get a Palace in Kyoto is by production(slow going without the FP) or using another Great Leader(we don't want to do that, do we?). If we want to start production on a palace in Bremershaven, it should be THE PALACE. To me, getting to Japan two turns faster is more important than a few extra production turns for the palace - besides Bremershaven still needs an aqueduct.

Rambled on there a bit at the end, but someone please tell me why this SHOULDN'T be our plan?

 

[Shaitan]

Another plan is to take peace right now with the several Japanese cities that would give us. Immediately start the FP in Bremershaven and then use the Baron for the Palace in Kyoto as soon as the FP is done. This would be 17 to 18 turns to a new palace and FP, both placed for excellent coverage.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

@Shaitan - that also leaves 17-18 turns without possiblity of a new GL. And we have several Elite units at Japan's doorstep. I am in total agreement with our key city selections, but I can't find a long-term benefit of a Kyoto palace that would outweigh the short-term(and long-term) benefits of the FP there in two turns.

 

[Falcon02]

My question is... how far away from Invention and the other wonder techs at the moment? Depending on how long a wait I may support one of them or the FP.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

I believe that Kyoto is a excellent place for a Palace or FP.

I would recommend FP in Kyoto and do all the palace shuffling later based upon our direction of advance.

The production boost we can see from the FP will more than out earn the wonders on the table right now.

 

[Stuck_as_a_Mac]

I withdraw my Leo Proposal and I am now voicing support fo La Capella Sistena (dosent matter where, just do it)

 

[Cyc]

We'll have to call these the Whirlwind Wonder Debates. I think we're just going to have to throw a dart at the choices until we hit one winner.

 

[Civanator]

I am in favor of leo's, and also the sistine. With sistine, it can boost our culture, but with leo's, we can upgrade our army faster. Maybe have a vote for this?

 

[Shaitan]

The reduced corruption from the FP will do everything Leo's can do and much, much more. Sistine is worthless without cathedrals in the cities. We have only a handful of cities where it would be even remotely feasible to build a cathedral and absolutely zero where one is needed right now.

 

[Octavian X]

We will build cathedrals eventually, Shaitan. I must stress, WE WILL NOT REMAIN A MONARCHY FOREVER. A switch to the Republic in the future wuold be best. This switch requires the use of the Sistine Chapel to control war weariness. We must use our GL to build this this wonder, or at least Mr. Leonardo's House of Curiosities.

As for palace placement, personally, I would wait just a bit longer until we decided which culture we attack next. A more balanced placement of the Forbidden Palace at one end of our current empire, and the palace at the other, would be more desirable for the the reduction of corruption.

 

[eyrei]

It is quite possible to control war weariness and unhappiness in general without the Sistine Chapel. It's effect basically makes it so you don't have to worry about unhappiness at all in cities with a cathedral until sanitation. Setting a luxury rate of 10% will not kill us, and most of our offensive wars should be over by the time we are ready to switch to republic. And again, cathedrals our very expensive improvements to build for non-religious civs. It is going to be a very, very long time before we can build them in our more corrupt cities.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

For those of you who think that the Forbidden Palace is not an option because it is an inexpensive Small Wonder, here are some figures to think about:

Kyoto
production: 7(6 wasted) = 1
Commerce: 11(10 wasted) = 1

Note: These numbers don't reflect Kyoto's current status in the savegame. I put the entertainers in Kyoto to work to show how corruption would affect our potential usage of the land as the city grows.

Plexenburg
production: 7(6 wasted) = 1
Commerce: 7(6 wasted) = 1

Kells
production: 9(6 wasted) = 3
Commerce: 6(4 wasted) = 2


These stats won't change until we get some kind of Palace in the region. At the current production rate, a Palace will take 100 turns in Kyoto to complete. Even in Kells(still a bit close to home IMO), where the production is a whopping 3, we are still looking at 34 turns for building a Palace in the region. Richthoffen can put the FP in Kyoto in two turns! We can also add 20+ gold per turn upon completion of the FP.

Keep in mind that these numbers don't even include all the new cities we get from Japan, Tokyo and Nara being the most notable(we may have to let Japan keep Kagoshima for now...). And the sooner Richthoffen is used, the sooner I can use my Elite units to get us those cities....and maybe another leader.

Anyone who has read any of the previous Wonder discussions knows that I am a big fan of the Sistine Chapel. And I think we still have a shot at it once my Elite units are set loose again. But first, let's let Richty do his work in Kyoto so that another Leader may rise. Remember, we have the Heroic Epic and it still owes us big time.

 

[Shaitan]

I agree. Get the FP up now and get another GL. The FP is critical to the nation. The other wonders are not.

 

[FortyJ]

I suggest we poll this issue soon. As of this posting, not even 50 hours remain until the next turn chat.

We should consider these options for the poll (and any others that I may have missed or that someone would like to add):

• Construct the Forbidden Palace in Bremershaven
• Construct the Forbidden Palace in Kells
• Construct the Forbidden Palace in Kyoto
• Construct the Forbidden Palace in Octavinium
• Construct Leonardo's Workshop (in any non-border town/city)
• Construct the Sistene Chapel (in any non-border town/city)

Of course, feel free to edit/add/delete any option. However, please, Mr. President.... Please post a poll on this issue now, so that we can resolve this issue in time for the next turn chat.

 

[Shaitan]

Just make sure to note that the FP choices will be aggregated to determine if FP wins and then the individual line winner would be used to determine where the FP goes.

 

[FortyJ]

Shaitan
I think that would be fair.

But perhaps the best way would be to quick poll the issue in two separate polls. First to determine how to use this leader (ie, P, FP, SC, or LW) and second to determine where.

Either way, the clock is ticking and we need to resolve this issue. Too bad we don't have unaminous support for only one issue...

 

[Padma]

As Culture Minister, I really should weigh in on the side of Sistine's, but when I look at our civ as a whole, I have to agree that we need the FP more. Use the Baron to rush the FP (Kyoto does look good for this) and farm ourselves another GL to produce Sistine's.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Originally posted by Cyc
We'll have to call these the Whirlwind Wonder Debates. I think we're just going to have to throw a dart at the choices until we hit one winner.

Well, I think I have painted a big enough target....fire away!

(why are my fingers getting numb?)

 

[Donovan Zoi]

@FortyJ- please add Plexenburg to the list of considered site for the FP. It allow for reasonavle compromise between Kells and Kyoto.

 

[Octavian X]

If we are to build the FP, I would never place it in a far northern city like Kyoto. We should place it in a city more central, but along the western front. Kells and Octavinium would be the best choices IMHO.