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Great start, but i'm stuck nevertheless

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Zink, Aug 22, 2008.

  1. Bleys

    Bleys Deity

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    IMHO once players start using Warrior Rushes, they should move on to Monarch level. If you cant cut it at Monarch, at least have the decency to do your rushes with Axemen. Warrior rushing is pure cheese. You might as well play at Settler level and edit the terrain in the WB while your at it.
     
  2. Zink

    Zink Chieftain

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    It's prince not noble. But i might give it a go tomorrow after i tried Zanttu's advice. Building 4 warriors doesn't sound too time consuming for a test ;)
     
  3. gskyes

    gskyes Warlord

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    I gave it a go and I was able to finish them off in 1225BC. I'm sure many of the better players here could have done much better, but I didn't micromanage my chops or whips. I'm sure my build order wasn't optimal, either, but it got the job done... barely...

    Research order was Fishing -> Bronze Working -> Wheel.
    These are really the only necessary techs, but with the gems and clams at the capital, the tech pace was very fast.
    Next up was Animal Husbandry, after that it doesn't really matter. (I picked up Iron Working, Archery, Writing and some others before the axemen were done)

    Build order was workboat (I started a Fast Worker, but swapped in the workboat after Fishing was done) -> fast worker -> workboat -> settler (whipped once the city was size 5) -> barracks.

    My lone warrior scouted south to find Charlie then came back north, hitting woodsman II on the way. Then I sent him back to Charles to worker hunt. Sure enough, a worker appeared at his borders to mine a hill, and then it was mine. I made peace with him as soon as I could, because my only military at this point is still that warrior.

    I founded Bombay 1N of the copper, which already had a road to it, and used both workers to finish the mine as soon as possible. Then I chopped and whipped the hell out of my capital, building 7 axemen there while Bombay finished 1. That gave me a force of 8 axemen at his doorstep at 1525BC.



    First town was build on the copper like in your game, one axe died, and the second burned it (it was a pretty bad spot). The 6 remaining moved on to Aachen, which was guarded by 3 protective archers. This is not very good odds, and a better strategy would either be to bring more axemen or attack his capital directly. 4 axemen died there, 2 won their battles, and one of them was promoted to CRII the next turn to finish off the last defender. Once 2 of the remaining axemen had healed up, they went south and finished off his remaining city, losing another axeman in the process. 2 of my original 8 survived.



    As you can see, I just barely pulled this rush off, and a bad turn of the RNG could have ended it quick. I didn't get the barb swordsmen event like you did, but I think that might have helped since it would have been free promotions for my axemen. Stealing the worker was a big help and it slowed him down a lot, too. Declaring war on him might have put him in a defensive mood sooner, though, but I guess I won't know for sure.

    I'm sorry I didn't make a more detailed writeup of how I managed my builds in Delhi, but all I can say is to whip and chop as much as you can. I really didn't think about doing that until I was sacking his cities, but like I said before, it probably wasn't optimal anyway.

    With all that said, I really had some help. I knew exactly where the copper would be, and where he would settle, and a rush was planned from turn one. If this had been a normal game, I might not have rushed at all, and once I had scouted the island out, a decision to rush at that point probably would have been too late. I might have picked up a religion first (I probably could have anyway with how fast the tech rate was). Maybe a better way to handle this start would be to found a religion and spread it to Charlie and then play a friendly builder game until you had a very nice tech lead. I'm not sure how that would work, as the area around your capital isn't really that great and Charlie is going to take the rest pretty quickly. And if you do eliminate him early, then its an isolated game until optics, leaving you all alone with the barbs and no early religion.

    In summary, settle your second city next to the copper, then whip and chop as much as possible.
     
  4. Komunyst_Indian

    Komunyst_Indian Chieftain

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    your city makes me salivate
     
  5. huerfanista

    huerfanista Emperor

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    :lol: Give me a break. :p Consider it good practice for playing Incas on Monarch.
     
  6. Jerrymander

    Jerrymander Epistemologist

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    Warrior rush = complete ownage on any level below Prince.
     
  7. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Labeling tactics that don't involve cheating as "pure cheese" is a slippery slope. Virtually anything the human does to win on levels past noble comes from exploiting a weakness in the AI. If the player didn't do so, his chances of winning would be 1/x, with x being the total number of civs in that game. I'm sure you know what happens when you warrior rush w/o Inca on monarch+, but have you ever tried it on a human either? It works against weak players, but you're pretty much just asking to get yourself killed otherwise.

    More practically - the warrior rush can give a prince or below player a leg up to win at a difficulty he hasn't been able to - it is by no means an auto-win like you make out for people who are legitimately that level still.

    Anyway, if you don't want to warrior rush, consider another tactic that will work situationally at pretty much all levels but deity (which it may but I can't vouch for deity games): Metal-based choke. If there's only 1-2 nearby AIs you can pillaged their copper/horse and choke them with axes. Obviously you want the cover promo if aggressive since all the AI can make w/o strategic resources pre-feudalism is....archers and warriors. Fortify on a hill, don't let the AI work any improved tiles or access metal, and destroy them at your leisure later with catapults. This *will* put you back in tech however (you'll need about 5 axes camped near their capitol to deal with the eventual 12 archers it'll mass up), so use it with care and situationally- I tend to use it very often when stuck on a continent with 1-2 AIs (choke both)...anything else and one AI expands into being a big problem.

    Otherwise, just get the chopping, whipping, and tile micro down, build a 2nd copper city, and hit with 8-12 axes in the 1500-1000 BC range. That will usually badly cripple or destroy the AI outright, all the way up through emperor.
     
  8. Jerrymander

    Jerrymander Epistemologist

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    Hey, hey, cheese is good. I really enjoy it. :(
     
  9. huerfanista

    huerfanista Emperor

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    Hey, choking is pure cheese! As are worker stealing, whip overflow gold, AP wins, slavery, the financial trait, quechas (Incas get double-cheese ftw!) and cultural wins. I know, because I've read it on this forum. :lol: Short version of "cheese": don't try anything that makes the game fun and/or easy. Programming CIV was hard; playing it should be harder.:crazyeye:
     
  10. Bleys

    Bleys Deity

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    Sorry, I am not convinced. Warrior rushing the AI at levels below Monarch is lame. Play up, or allow the AI time to get to Archery (which it "beelines"), "knowing" you can pull off the Warrior Rush because the AI is handicapped so much at Prince and below is a long way from "as intended".

    But again, as with all my opinions on this game, they are mine, and everyone can play as they see fit. Reload battles and huts all you want, edit the WB as you wish, Warrior rush to your hearts content. Its your game, its not some MMORPG where doing stuff like that matters one bit in the overall scheme of things. But its my contention that relying on such "tactics" is more detrimental to advancing in actual skill. You get into the habit of Warrior rushing on Prince, you will find Monarch impossible.
    As I have stated in previous posts, I consider the "exploit <---------> legit tactic" question to be a sliding scale, and all the things you name fall somewhere in between the opposite ends of the spectrum. IMHO, Warrior Rushing at Prince and below is WAY closer to "Exploit" than "Tactic". But thats MY OPINION and I am most definitely entitled to it.
     
  11. huerfanista

    huerfanista Emperor

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    Undoubtedly. But you could have expressed that in a more civil manner. I enjoy reading your posts in the various threads (Monarchists, NC, etc) - you're obviously a more accomplished player than me. People play CIV for lots of different reasons, and the way they play - and the level thay play at - can vary a lot depending on their mood at the time. You, I believe, have stated that you like to play on Monarch - even though your "true" level is emperor - because the game is more enjoyable for you on Monarch. I'm willing to slog it out on Monarch in tough situations sometimes, and sometimes I want an "easy" game. Frankly, being alone on an island with a pro-imp rex monster like Charlemagne is not my idea of fun. I offered the OP a way to get an "easy" win in a game he was clearly struggling with (you, too, apparently). He was free to try it or not. IMO, everyone should know how to do a warrior rush, regardless of whether they decide to use it or not (for whatever reasons). Your response, frankly, was condescending and a bit over the top.
     
  12. Bleys

    Bleys Deity

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    I apologize, you are correct, I was condescending. And I have indeed stayed at Monarch for a long time because I can generally play more pro-actively rather than re-actively.

    For the record, in my shadow, I built the Oracle, Mids, founded Judaism (and built the shrine) and Confu, had 4 decent cities and was about 6 or more techs ahead of Charley, including CoL, Currency, and MC, by 500 BC. Construction and a few Cats added to the 6 Axes and 4 Spears I already built would have been plenty to romp over the HRE. I wouldnt expect a Prince level player to be able to get all that, so I didnt go over my play-path choices.
     
  13. huerfanista

    huerfanista Emperor

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    No problem, we all have our days. ;)

    Shadow game:
    Spoiler :
    I was looking for a fun wonderspam, and this map delivered. After rushing with 4 warriors, I built SH in Aachen, and GLH in Delhi. Settled the stone and marble cities next, built mids, Colossus, HG, GL in Delhi. Aachen got the Oracle (for MC), Shwedagon Paya, and Parth. Delhi started spitting out GEs which I used to rush a couple of wonders (Shw-P, Parth, ND) while I beelined CoL. Ended up founding confu, taoism, and islam with shrines for all (courtesy of Aachen, which had AW, UoS, SM). Miles ahead of the AI. Currently conquering the world in the 1700s - captured the buddhist shrine (dominant religion in the rest of the world). :lol:
     
  14. Zink

    Zink Chieftain

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    I played the map again this afternoon and tried the warrior rush first since i had never done that before and wanted to see if it really works. Charls died in 3475BC :lol:

    So out of curiosity how the game would develop differently i continued till the very end: space race in turn 565 (1957). I was deciding between domination and space at around 1850 as i had to attack ramesses anyway. Went for space to have a better comparison with my first attempt.

    I was somewhat surprised that the game was extremely similar to my first win:
    Spoiler :
    - boudica got destroyed by barbarians early on,
    - ramesses went cultural and would have won ~1900,
    - the other civs settling the same areas (almost identical map),
    - saladin attacking me around the same time in game (first game my power was low, this game it was about twice of his...weird),
    - discovered unusually many metals throughout the game (perhaps it's the unofficial patch, it's my first game with it)
    - etc...


    I didn't try the axe rush again but thanks @gskyes for showing how it's done properly!
    On to my next game now, probably with Charls :D

    Thanks for the help everyone :)
     
  15. Abegweit

    Abegweit Anarchist trader

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    I decided to give your game a whirl.

    The problem with the axe rush is that it simply does not play to the strengths of the position. However, you don't very much production, at least not yet. This makes it very hard to get enough units to take out Charlie. What's more, you really don't need to worry about him much because he's a pretty friendly guy on the whole and he's got a whole continent to fill up. :mischief:

    So play to the strengths of the position. You have gems and you have stone. It's a coastal start with lots of trees and fast workers. You should be a tech whore. So chop out the mids and the glh. Then grow your cities nice and big. There's room for six in the northern part of the island and you should build them all.

    Tech path: Fishing-BW-TW-Pots-Writing-Math-Masonry. Start pre-chopping and get the mids up in a hurry, followed by the GLH. I whipped two settlers and a worker out of the capital while getting ready to chop out the big one (also built a granary from scratch.

    The copper town was placed on the shore as it should be. It's first build was the MoM, rushed with the engineer from the mids. That solved the problem of how to bring the metal on line. :D

    I've attached a picture of my empire the turn that I built my sixth city. You can also see the capital. It is doing 2-turn axes and will start on cats shortly. :hammer: Vijay also makes a real nice GP farm but right now I switched back to slavery in order whip out a few harbours and forges.
     

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  16. Zink

    Zink Chieftain

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    I just found my new favorite Civ! Wow, his UU and UB are powerfull and his traits fit them perfectly (and _my_ preferred style of playing)!

    UB: The Rathaus acts like the organized trait of other civs and it comes with a building that a) never expires and b) every city needs to build anyway (and CAN build).
    Coupled with Charlemagne's imperialistic trait you can REX like mad in the beginning while beelining to CoL, which i do mostly anyway. Those courthouses are mostly on my priority list.
    Meanwhile you can take advantage of Charles second trait: protective. All those new cities can easily be guarded by CGII/DrillI archers/longbows.

    His UU fits my personal style perfectly: after rexing you get a medival unit that gets +100% vs. melee AND mounted :crazyeye:
    So time for taking those AI cities that built the early wonders :)
    Either get a stack of CRII-landsknechten (which you should get easily from a settled GG...remember, we're imperialistic!), protected by some mounted units from xbows...or vice versa, get a stack of knights protected by the UU.

    I just scored my highest win ever on prince so it's time for monarch now (ofc with Charls). Sorry, i just can't stop drooling :D
     
  17. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    If you beeline to Brone working at start. Build 2 workers. Use the first worker to chop down forest to speed up production of second worker.

    Then use both workers to chop forest for settler. Use a warrior to escort settler to copper location. All this could be done by 2800-3000bc on epic settings. if your building workboats it may slow down process a few turns.

    Build second city by copper. Chop a third worker and have capital produce second settler.

    Meanwhile send your other worker to bombay to work the copper. As third worker comes online start building road to Bombay.

    By 2500bc you can start chopping/whipping for your axemen with your 3 cities. Once you have 5-6 axemen go attack. You could happily do all this before 1500bc if you follow the above.

    The alternative is to rex like mad to 4 cities and then go for the rush. Even so you could have the capital by 1000bc.


    Hmmm just read up and maybe I missed a page when reading. lol
     
  18. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    The AI is NOT handicapped at prince or even noble. At all. It actually has an advantage. Some players struggle there, and warrior rushing can help.

    Yes, warrior rushing will get you mauled above prince unless you're playing a scenario game (although it can be done it isn't cost effective :p). It is one thing among many that doesn't work as you move up. Try going for early religion on monarch + for example - you can easily miss the religion and hurt yourself by not being able to improve tiles. On prince and below, religion is almost a gimme for a civ with mysticism. Early religion + SH prophet can easily equate to war and expansion money, not to mention diplomatic manipulation by merely building roads! Cheese!

    Although a warrior rush player may need to learn how to use axes or chariots a level up, it's still a pretty canned concept that anyone can pull off devoid of strategy, assuming they have copper or horse and a nearby opponent.

    I'll say it again: ANYTHING that the human does to gain an advantage that the AI isn't capable is pretty much an exploit in the sense that a warrior rush is. AI not having archers isn't a HANDICAP. It's EVEN. The human doesn't start with archery, EVER, and they sure as !@#$ don't start with 2-3 archers.

    Screw that. Use anything that lets you win that fits within the rules. Even HoF won't DQ warrior rushes and there's a reason for that. (just Inca, and the reason isn't that the warrior rush is effective, but rather that Inca is so much better than other civs that it would be used nearly exclusively).
     
  19. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Actually the protective trait doesn't do much. Yes, you have an extra promotion for a defender, but there's no way I would let an AI actually attack one of my cities -- I'd be attackign theirs.
     
  20. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    You can always abuse overflow into gold and try to use drill III or IV rifles/infantry on stuff. If you somehow get a tech lead, that is. A lot of PRO leaders do have a good other trait though.
     

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