Greecemod: Not a Byzwank, Promise (EU4 althist mod creation/discussion thread)

Yep, completely right about Englishness I just had absolutely no idea what to Arabic

 

Albion maybe? That sounds like it could be vaguely Arabic already. Or London or some local Celtic tribe if all else fails.

Sorry

Your German setup remains intact though and I'll try to use as many of your names as possible. Also, didn't you say at one point you wanted to do North Africa? That part of the world remains pretty much untouched at this point.

 

It doesn't have to be Arabic. They are Celts, so you could use a Celtish name.

 

I think Albiyun should be a good variation, as a possible Arabic transcription of a Greek transcription of a Celtic name.

Also, we could have a surviving Ba-Shu speaking state in Sichuan or a Tibetan-influenced kingdom or anything really, since Sichuan was somehow a mildly attractive place for exiled refugees.

 

Certainly, but I like the idea of at least some of them having Arabized versions of Latin or Celtic names (if there's a ruling family in France named the Qusayyads then this makes the most sense I feel) to reflect a sort of Arabized Celtic culture that formed, with the "pure" Celts keeping "pure" Celtic names if that makes sense.

Edit: or even within Islam, you could make a cultural division between Arabized and non-Arabized Celts/Latins. I decided to do something:
-Arabized (i.e. Islamic Spain): ?13, ?15, 16, 17, 21, 22, 24, 25, 52
-Non-Arabized (but still Muslim) but with Arabized Ruling Class (i.e. Medieval Northern India): 9, 12, ?13, 14, ?15, 18, ?19, ?20, 23
-Completely Non-Arabized but still Islamic (i.e. Indonesia): 6, 10, ?19, ?20, 26
-Non-Muslim but has Muslim Provinces: 7, 11, 27, 31, 32

IMO the Muslim/Pagan divide should roughly follow the French/German (or Gallic/Germanic) divide so the western ~1/3 of both 31 and 32 would be Muslim.

Also I think that the Celts would have been partly Latinized before any Arabization (though they're still pretty clearly Celts) which explains Terran's use of Latin(ized) names for some of these.

Also unrelated, but a certain someone thinks that there should be Hellenic Norway. So I propose there be at least one Hellenic province in Norway (38), maybe in the northwest somewhere. And if Norway gets either an atrociously horrible (1/1/1 or worse) or an incredibly good (5/5/5 or better) ruler and that province is still Hellenic he/she can make a decision to become Christos a Grecophile and attempt to Hellenize the entire country.

I like Albiyun.

I'll just go with that, what would such a state be named?

 

Updated nations list, (plus my suggested attempts at Arabizing a few names)

Spoiler :

1. Ierne (Hellenic Ireland)
2. Dal Raida
3. Alba
4. Bernicia
5. Rheged
6. Elmet (Muslim Britons)
7. Brython (Insular Britain)
8. Camelot (Arturia Pendragon)
9. Albiyun (Muslim Arabs)
10. ??? (Muslim merchant republic)
11. Armorica (Insular Asterix's state)
12. ??? (Quasayyad)
13. Lutetia (Muslim theocratic order)
14. Pictavia (Quasayyad)
15. Aquitania (Qusayyad)
16. ??? (Qusayyad)
17. Narbonensis (Qusayyad)
18. ??? (Celtic/Muslim)
19. ??? (Celtic/Muslim)
20. ??? (Celtic/Muslim)
21. Massalia (Muslim pirate republic)
22. Tarraconensis (Tariqonensis?)
23. Lusitania
24. Tartessos (Muslim merchant republic)
25. Gallaecia?
26. Italya (Muslim Rome)
27. Rome (or SPQR or whatever; Hellenic Rome)
28. Venezia
29. Istria
30. Noricum (How about this being Buddhist splinter from Rome? We already have Buddhists in Romania, might as well have some having gone slightly further west?)
31. Allemannia
32. Francia
33. Frisia
34. Saxony
35. Marcomannia
36. Vandalia
37. Angleland
38. Norway
39. Svealand (Norwegian vassal)
40. Sami
41. Finland
42. Estonia
43. Latvia
44. Lithuania
45. Prussia
46. Yotvingia
47. ??? (Buddhist)
48. Antea (Zoroastrian Slavs) (might be changed)
49. ???
50. Illyria (Ethiopia-analogue)
51. ???
52. Citerior (Qaiteriyur?)
---
Greek HRE States:
53. Epirus
54. Macedon
55. Thracia
56. Larissa
57. Athens
58. Corinth
59. Sparta
60. Syracuse
61. Rhodes
62. Caria
63. Lesbos
64. Troy
65. Bithynia
66. Phrygia
67. Lydia
68. Taurimark (Hellenized Norwegian colony)
---
69. ??? (It's in Denmark. In other words, SK can't count.)
70. Byzantium (A Christian country in a Hellenic world; starts off at war with Athens, Thracia, and a few others)
71. Scythia (Zoroasian)
72. ???
73. ???
74. Galinida
75. ??? (Norse descendents perhaps?)
76. ???
77. ???
78. Moksha (Buddhist)
79. ???
80. Slavs/Slavia?
81. Taman (Zoroastrian)
82. Colchis
83. Pontus
84. Armenia
85. Taurus (Hellenic)
86. Cappadocia (Muslim)
87. Antioch
88. Byblos
89. Tyre
90. Israel
91. Damietta?
92. Alexandria?
93. ???
94. ???
95. ???
96. Jihadist Ethiopia
97. Christian something ruling over Muslim holy sites
98. ???
99. Nabatea (no idea what religion this is)
100. Damascus
101. Palmyra
102. Assyria
103. Lakhmidia (Christian Arabs)
104. The Abba (Pope, or, the whore of actual Babylon)
105. Nineveh
106. Arbela
107. Azerbaijan
108. Ecbatana
109. Susa
110. ???
111. ???
112. ??? (Buddhist)
113. Organa (yes this is an actual name, not a pun)
114. Persia
115. Hyrcania (Persian vassal)
116. Parthia (Persian vassal with cores on a number of surrounding provinces)
117. (*maybe* a Persian vassal)
118. (Persian vassal)
119. Gedrosia
120. ???
121. Chorasmia
122. ???
123. Jaxartia (or Transoxiana but Jaxartia is a far cooler name)
124. Fergana
125. Bactria or Gandhara
126. Arachosia
127. Indica
128. Kashmir?
129. ??? (Hellenic)
130. Aorsia
131. ???
132. Dalmasca
133. ???
134. ???
135. ???
136. ???
137. Vindhya
138. Gondwana
139. ???
140. Konkan
141. ???
142. ???
143. Assaka
144. Karnataka (Mithraic)
145. Kerala (Center of the Mithraism)
146. Pandya (Mithraic)
147. Amaravati (Mithraic)
148. Kalinga (Hellenic?)
149. Magadha (Buddhist)
150. ???
151. Manipur
152. Monyul
153. Nepal
154. Tibet
155. Kashgar
156. Kucha
157. Khotan
158. Qarqan
159. Turfan
160. Testveri (Magyars)
161. Mohe (name?)
162. Tuunghai
---
Chinese Hegemony (Shogunate mechanics)
163. Ping
164. Huaxia
165. Luo
166. Nei
167. Ye
168. Jiang
---
169. Xie (Seres, or Christosland)
170. ??? (Ba-Shu speaking state)
171. Gyong Tsrag
172. Meng Chu
173. Min Yuet
174. Nam Yuet
175. Champa
176. Khmer Empire
177. Hellenic Indonesia (This *may* be a little too far-fetched)
178. ??? (Mithraic)
179. Chola (A Hindu Tamil empire exiled from its homeland by the Pandya, Chola also owns at least part of Lanka)
180. ??? (A powerful inland Jewish state with links eastwards as well)
181. Takrur (no idea what religion - or culture - this is)
182. Tupi
183. Iceland
184. Inuit (or something; a semi-unified tribal state that emerged after the start of the Little Ice Age forced the Vinlanders south)
185. Vinland (May need renaming)
186. Markland (May need renaming)
187. Huron/Wyandot
188. Iroquois/Haudenosaunee
189. Miami (For the record, some/all of the Native American states could use renaming into their native language or something so they're not just tribe names, but I don't know close enough about Amerindian linguistics to attempt this)
190. Shawnee
191. Cherokee
192. Creek (or Muscogee)
193. Choctaw
194. Natchez
195. Chickasaw
196. Cahokia (The large empire and the strongest of the native states)
197. Peoria (repurposed Illiniwek tag)
198. Sauk
199. Fox
200. Sioux
201. Pawnee
202. Wichita
203. Caddo
204. The Pilgrims (Christian missionary order)
205. ???
206. ???
207. ???
208. ???
209. ???
210. ???
211. ???
212. ???
213. ???
214. Hadhramut

 

Guys pls reply so I don't have to triple post again D:

I put together all of the cultural suggestions, without adding anything, into one list for reference:

Spoiler :

Brythonic:
-Cumbric
-Welsh

Insular:
-Breton
-Irish
-Other French/Gallic celts

Arab-Celtic: (Mustarib?)
-Arab-Breton
-Arab-Brythonic

North Germanic:
-Danish
-Norwegian
-Swedish
-Vinlandic

West Germanic:
-Angle
-Batavian
-Frankish
-Frisian
-Jute
-Lombard
-Saxon

East Germanic:
-Burgundian
-Gothic
-Rugii
-Vandal

Baltic:
-Prussian
-Latvian
-Lithuanian
(Others?)

Finno-Ugric:
-same as base game? (I don't know what this culture group has in base game)

African:
-Berber
-others

Latin:
-Hispanic
-Illyrian
-Roman
-Transalpine

Hellenistic:
-Anatolian
-Armenaian
-Georgian
-Greek

Semitic:
-Arab
-Egyptian
-Hebrew
-Phoenecian
-Syrian

Iranian:
-Babylonian
-Baluchi
-Khorasani
-Persian
-Scythian

Han:
-Chu Han
-Qi Han
-Qin Han
-[Ba-Shu?]
-[Sino-Japanese? for Hata clan]

Shiwei:
-Hyung
-Syanbye
-Testveri (Magyar) [presumably would have close cultural interaction like the Turks within the Mongol Empire]

Tibeto-Burman [needs a better name]:
-Gyong (Yi)
-Qiang
-Tibetan
-Pyu {210 (primary culture, central)}
-Sein {210 (northwest)}

Tai:
-Tai Luang (Shan) {209}
-Tai Muong (Lao, Siamese) {211, 212?}
-Tai Rau (renamed from Tai Ruong)

Bak Yuet:
-Hmou (respelled to keep coherence)
-Min Yuet
-Nam Yuet

Uncategorized:
-Dan (Korean)
-Matgat (Mohe)

Same with religions:

Spoiler :

Germanic?:
-Germanic
-Norse

Fun with Uncategorized Pagans:
-Romuva (Baltic)
-Insular (druids)
-Slavic?
-Suomensko
-West African
-various Americans (lets split this up further, vanilla's divisions are outright nonsensical)
-Animist (Generic paganism for natives or regions that don't warrant separate pagans)

Hellenic:
-Imperial
-Reformed
-Eastern
-Western

Abrahamic:
-Christian
-Islamic
-Jewish

Indo-Seric:
-Hinduism
-Buddhism (please please please split this up its unification is one of vanilla's greatest annoyances for me, and it doesn't make sense for Hungary and Bihar to have the exact same religion)
-?Confucian?
-Shinto
-others

Other/Uncategorized:
-Mithraic
-Zoroastrian

 

And in response, here are my suggestions for East and Southeast Asian cultures:

Spoiler :

Han:
-Chu Han
-Qi Han
-Qin Han
-[Ba-Shu?]
-[Sino-Japanese? for Hata clan]

Shiwei:
-Hyung
-Syanbye
-Testveri (Magyar) [presumably would have close cultural interaction like the Turks within the Mongol Empire]

Tibeto-Burman [needs a better name]:
-Gyong (Yi)
-Qiang
-Tibetan
-Pyu {210 (primary culture, central)}
-Sein {210 (northwest)}

Tai:
-Tai Luang (Shan) {209}
-Tai Muong (Lao, Siamese) {211, 212?}
-Tai Rau (renamed from Tai Ruong)

Bak Yuet:
-Hmou (respelled to keep coherence)
-Min Yuet
-Nam Yuet

Tocharian should probably be in the same cultural group as the Indo-Greek descendants and possibly Central Asian cultures.
Matgat (Mohe) would fit under a Tungusic cultural group if it exists.
As for Dan (Korean), it could plausibly fit under Tungusic or Japanese (if it's still one group) through cultural diffusion

As for the Buddhism thing, an issue is that the "Dharmic" and "Eastern" religious groups aren't really that separate either. Adherents of Shinto and Shenism get along as well with Buddhists as Jains and Hindus do. It's more of a gradient if anything else. As such, if were to make them one religious group, it WOULD make more sense to split up Buddhism into various sects. Regardless, we should probably raise the tolerance of "heretics" modifier to 3 and above to outweigh the default -2 modifier.

Spoiler :

(My personal pet peeve is the nonsensical "religion" of "Confucianism")

Also, I don't think the Dutch mechanics were discussed yet. What would be a good candidate? Somewhere between monarchy and republic with a focus on trade, so Carthage(?) perhaps? Or with what we have currently, Tuunghai has the most conspicuous position out of all the republics, so it could be a reflection of a republican system descended from a monarchy.

 

I think we should reorganize Germanic and the Europeans Pagans into one religious group, "European". All of these would share the Piety Mechanic (except for the Norse), but they would have different static bonuses, for example the Insular Celts could have a tolerance bonus while the Germanics could have a Manpower and Forcelimit boost to represent their horde-y nature.

Also I was thinking about Techgroups. I imagine later in development we might want to make fully fleshed out techgroups with newly named and balanced units and such, but for version 0.1 I think it would just be prudent to use renamed Here's my ideas so far:

Imperial Greek +0% Tech Cost (Equivalent to Western) - Used by the HRE and other Imperial Greek states like Ireland. Considering the possible fragility of the Greek, you might want a Westernization Event in even of their annexation so the world isn't doomed to tech stagnation.

Western Greek +20% Tech Cost (Equivalent to Eastern) - Used by nations with Western Greek state religion. Muslim Rome might use this one as well considering they are culturally Roman.

Eastern Greek +25% Tech Cost (Equivalent to Ottoman) - Used by nations with Easter Greek state religion.

Abrahamic +40% Tech Cost (Equivalent to Muslim) - Used by nations in the Abrahamic Religious Group, except those in Europe.

European +50% Tech Cost (Equivalent to Indian) - Used by nations in Europe with the Abrahamic or European Religious Groups, with the (maybe) exception of Spain and Muslim Italy.

Asian +70% Tech Cost (Equivalent to Chinese) - Used by all of Asia, including India. Also, even if we don't expand this techgroup to India, can we please rename it to Asian anyway? Someone on Paradox Plaza must have read too much of Chirstos' propaganda because China =/= Japan.

All other techgroups (i.e Native Ones and Hordes) would be the same. What do you guys think?

 

I kind of imagined pagan Europe to be in the nomad tech group, with Central Europe and Dacia being in the Indian equivalent. I think Western should just be the Hellenosphere (including Muslim Italy and Anatolia), Eastern being Muslim Europe and the Near East (Mediterranean, or rather, Mesogeiaki), and Ottoman includes North Africa, the British Isles and perhaps the Middle East. I suggest making Central Asia + India + Northern China + Japan the Muslim equivalent as well.

After all, there should be some colonial power that's not stuck in the Gibraltar Herakleian bottleneck.

 

I prefer NC's idea re: tech groups.

 

Thanks for those.

Point taken; I suppose we can just merge the lot of them under a vague "Eastern" category but that's not really descriptive enough either imo?

(Does the concept of republicanism exist in Eastern political thought at all?) I do like the idea of Tuunghai getting a special government, as Asia definitely needs more of those.

Sure, that works.

With tech groups, I like all this; my only concern with that is that there aren't enough Hellenic countries to justify having 3 tech groups, even if we add more (that mass of states, and the East African coast, and maybe even Yemen are all possibilities).
I also think the Muslims in Europe should have a definitive tech advantage over the pagans; this way, the pagans start out as major, major threats that could overrun Gaul, giving the Muslims an urgent need to unify, but the pagans also need to work to modernize if they want to stay relevant.

See my suggestion below.

Speaking of Dacia, I actually had a better idea for the Slavs. 48 could be a Zoroastrian neo-Dacia, and the Slavs could have been migrated east to 79 or 80 or perhaps even 205.

I definitely agree with the last part. Ireland, whoever unifies France, the Iberian states, whoever ends up being in Morocco (which I propose be part of a largish pan-Berber state), and Takrur are all prime possibilities for colonialization. I'd love to see some Asian powers get in the mix too but I have no idea if the AI can handle that.

So my suggestion, trying to keep NC's more or less intact and considering Krz's suggestions:

---

Imperial Greek (Western): HRE (we should get a new name for this btw), Ireland, and whoever else

<somethingelsian> Greek (Eastern): Other Hellenic and/or Hellenic-influenced states, so I suppose Italy, Anatolia, parts of India, parts of Indonesia, Scythia, Taman, and wherever else.

Abrahamic (Ottoman): Levant, Arabia, Mesopotamia, Persia, Central Asia; the Christian-centered group but including the Jews as well

Muslim (Muslim, coincidentally enough): North Africa, Spain, France, Britain (including the Celts)

Asian (Indian): India, SE Asia, China, Japan

European (Chinese): At the very least Germany, Scandinavia, non-Muslim Southern Europe. I suppose the Baltics could go in here as well, but I kind of agree with Krz they should be nomadic

Nomads, Sub-Saharan, and New World remain the same (Vinland is the only possible wrench here, but I guess we can just throw it in New World and say that's an issue that can be fixed later).

---

There should definitely be an alternate path to changing tech groups than westernization as >90% of playthroughs won't give you the chance to westernize anyway. Maybe a decision if you border a country of a higher tech group to switch tech groups, with the same bad modifiers and the chance to get westernization events? I suppose the "Hellenize Norway" decision I proposed earlier could also do this.

 

Subbing.

 

Posting here for posterity and/or easy access

 

Not republicanism per se (in terms of representation), but confederalism and parliamentarism are definitely well documented in East Asian history before the time-frame of this mod, which I think is good enough for the in-game republican mechanics.

Also in terms of naming, a Greek-dominated civilization would probably think of the Near East as the "default" Asian, rather than the immigration-influenced term we use in English. So for both the religious group and technology group I would suggest something like "Indo-Seric".

As for the HRE, something involving Panhellenes?

 

@Krzowwh: Sino-Yamato or Sino-Yamatai for the Hata sounds better to me.

 

Would anyone mind if I ask Thorvarld to set up an SVN for us? He seems to know what he is doing in that department.

 

Hmm...
Yamato or Yamatai sounds really native Japanese (which it is, but you know). As a Qin descendant, I think calling the culture Fusou (&#25206;&#26705 would be a good idea.

 

Not a bad choice at all.

 

Indo-Seric works, we could rename Abrahamic tech group to Asian I guess.

Sure, this would be really helpful actually.

Now, North Africa, West Africa, East Africa, South Africa, Darkest Africa, Lightest Africa, 11th Dimensional Africa, Lightest Africa, Hyperspace Africa, and - nvm, Indonesia, Manchuria, Korea, Japan, and Mesoamerica seem to be what's left. (I don't think changing the Americas are an immediate need - I know Vinland exists but the Old World should be a much greater initial priority)

For some of these, I have some ideas.
-A Hellenic state (maybe a 2/3PM or OPM even) based in Zanzibar. My logic is since the Hellenics clearly had access to the entirety of the Indian Ocean trade routes to have gone as far as Indonesia. Maybe even a second Hellenic state based in Mogadishu.
-In North Africa, maybe a powerful (neo-)Carthage controlling the central North African coast, Morocco and Algeria could be divided between at most half a dozen coastal states and tribals, maybe one of which controls the trans-sahara provinces, and another of which controls the Atlantic coast and is a likely colonial power.
-Maybe a southern maritime kingdom/something controlling (at least parts of) Malaya, Borneo, and some of the Indonesian islands, actually 178 could fit that role pretty well.

I want to say to feel free to challenge anything I say; what I put is merely a suggestion and shouldn't be taken as any sort of final judgement of anything. I realize that I started this as a personal project and I'll certainly be putting a great deal of work into it but I don't want to come across as being a dictator.