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Greecemod: Not a Byzwank, Promise (EU4 althist mod creation/discussion thread)

Discussion in 'Imperium OffTopicum' started by SouthernKing, Sep 29, 2014.

  1. SouthernKing

    SouthernKing crickety cricket

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    A github for this mod has been created. If you want to help contribute, you should get an account (if you don't already have one) and I'll add you as a collaborator. You don't have to, but it will make the entire process much easier.

    And this is my proposal for Southeast Asia, divided between large pink maritime empire and a number of smaller nations. I've also included what I think should be borders of Carthage.

    Spoiler :
     
  2. Krzowwh

    Krzowwh King

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    So if no one else is going to make an initiative in Japan, here's this:

    Spoiler :


    I'm thinking maybe 2 native Japanese cultures, not including the Ainu/Emishi going on in Hitakami (which I'm thinking should go along with the Tungusic cultures instead).

    EDIT: You can just ignore Korea, that's a remnant from before I remembered that Manchuria and Korea were going to get re-balanced/expanded. I mean, I left room for planning out the Northeast, but the provinces are going to change a lot compared to other places.
     
  3. SouthernKing

    SouthernKing crickety cricket

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    Spoiler :


    Canonized. I've also added Korea just so there's not a gap there, it can obviously be changed at a later date. I've also finalized the Maghreb, whose borders look horrendous now but won't in the final map because AoW made the borders much nicer.

    New labelled map as well. I didn't label Korea yet because it might be changed?

    Spoiler :


    Spoiler :
    1. Ierne (Hellenic Ireland)
    2. Dal Raida
    3. Alba
    4. Bernicia
    5. Rheged
    6. Elmet (Muslim Britons)
    7. Brython (Insular Britain)
    8. Camelot (Arturia Pendragon)
    9. Albiyun (Muslim Arabs)
    10. ??? (Muslim merchant republic)
    11. Armorica (Insular Asterix's state)
    12. ??? (Quasayyad)
    13. Lutetia (Muslim theocratic order)
    14. Pictavia (Quasayyad)
    15. Aquitania (Qusayyad)
    16. ??? (Qusayyad)
    17. Narbonensis (Qusayyad)
    18. ??? (Celtic/Muslim)
    19. ??? (Celtic/Muslim)
    20. ??? (Celtic/Muslim)
    21. Massalia (Muslim pirate/merchant republic)
    22. Tarraconensis
    23. Lusitania
    24. Tartessos (Muslim merchant republic)
    25. ???
    26. Italya (Muslim Rome)
    27. Rome (or SPQR or whatever; Hellenic Rome)
    28. Venezia
    29. Istria
    30. Noricum
    31. Allemannia
    32. Francia
    33. Frisia
    34. Saxony
    35. Marcomannia
    36. Vandalia
    37. Angleland
    38. Norway
    39. Svealand (Norwegian vassal)
    40. Sami
    41. Finland
    42. Estonia
    43. Latvia
    44. Lithuania
    45. Prussia
    46. Yotvingia
    47. ??? (Buddhist)
    48. Antea (Zoroastrian Slavs) (might be changed)
    49. ???
    50. Illyria (Ethiopia-analogue)
    51. ???
    52. Citerior (Qaiteriyur?)
    ---
    Greek HRE States:
    53. Epirus
    54. Macedon
    55. Thracia
    56. Larissa
    57. Athens
    58. Corinth
    59. Sparta
    60. Syracuse
    61. Rhodes
    62. Caria
    63. Lesbos
    64. Troy
    65. Bithynia
    66. Phrygia
    67. Lydia
    68. Taurimark (Hellenized Norwegian colony)
    ---
    69. ??? (It's in Denmark. In other words, SK can't count.)
    70. Byzantium (A Christian country in a Hellenic world; starts off at war with Athens, Thracia, and a few others)
    71. Scythia (Zoroasian)
    72. ???
    73. ???
    74. Galinida
    75. ??? (Norse descendents perhaps?)
    76. ???
    77. ???
    78. Moksha (Buddhist)
    79. ???
    80. Slavs/Slavia?
    81. Taman (Zoroastrian)
    82. Colchis
    83. Pontus
    84. Armenia
    85. Taurus (Hellenic)
    86. Cappadocia (Muslim)
    87. Antioch
    88. Byblos
    89. Tyre
    90. Israel
    91. Damietta?
    92. Alexandria?
    93. ???
    94. ???
    95. ???
    96. Jihadist Ethiopia
    97. Christian something ruling over Muslim holy sites
    98. ???
    99. Nabatea (no idea what religion this is)
    100. Damascus
    101. Palmyra
    102. Assyria
    103. Lakhmidia (Christian Arabs)
    104. The Abba (Pope, or, the whore of actual Babylon)
    105. Nineveh
    106. Arbela
    107. Azerbaijan
    108. Ecbatana
    109. Susa
    110. ???
    111. ???
    112. ??? (Buddhist)
    113. Organa (yes this is an actual name, not a pun)
    114. Persia
    115. Hyrcania (Persian vassal)
    116. Parthia (Persian vassal with cores on a number of surrounding provinces)
    117. (*maybe* a Persian vassal)
    118. (Persian vassal)
    119. Gedrosia
    120. ???
    121. Chorasmia
    122. ???
    123. Jaxartia (or Transoxiana but Jaxartia is a far cooler name)
    124. Fergana
    125. Bactria or Gandhara
    126. Arachosia
    127. Indica
    128. Kashmir?
    129. ??? (Hellenic)
    130. Aorsia
    131. ???
    132. Dalmasca
    133. ???
    134. ???
    135. ???
    136. ???
    137. Vindhya
    138. Gondwana
    139. ???
    140. Konkan
    141. ???
    142. ???
    143. Assaka
    144. Karnataka (Mithraic)
    145. Kerala (Center of the Mithraism)
    146. Pandya (Mithraic)
    147. Amaravati (Mithraic)
    148. Kalinga (Hellenic?)
    149. Magadha (Buddhist)
    150. ???
    151. Manipur
    152. Monyul
    153. Nepal
    154. Tibet
    155. Kashgar
    156. Kucha
    157. Khotan
    158. Qarqan
    159. Turfan
    160. Testveri (Magyars)
    161. Mohe (name?)
    162. Tuunghai
    ---
    Chinese Hegemony (Shogunate mechanics)
    163. Ping
    164. Huaxia
    165. Luo
    166. Nei
    167. Ye
    168. Jiang
    ---
    169. Xie (Seres, or Christosland)
    170. ??? (Ba-Shu speaking state)
    171. Gyong Tsrag
    172. Meng Chu
    173. Min Yuet
    174. Nam Yuet
    175. Champa
    176. Khmer Empire
    177. Hellenic Indonesia (This *may* be a little too far-fetched)
    178. ??? (Mithraic)
    179. Chola (A Hindu Tamil empire exiled from its homeland by the Pandya, Chola also owns at least part of Lanka)
    180. ??? (A powerful inland Jewish state with links eastwards as well)
    181. Takrur (no idea what religion - or culture - this is)
    182. Tupi
    183. Iceland
    184. Inuit (or something; a semi-unified tribal state that emerged after the start of the Little Ice Age forced the Vinlanders south)
    185. ??? (May need renaming)
    186. Markland (May need renaming)
    187. Huron/Wyandot
    188. Iroquois/Haudenosaunee
    189. Miami (For the record, some/all of the Native American states could use renaming into their native language or something so they're not just tribe names, but I don't know close enough about Amerindian linguistics to attempt this)
    190. Shawnee
    191. Cherokee
    192. Creek (or Muscogee)
    193. Choctaw
    194. Natchez
    195. Chickasaw
    196. Cahokia (The large empire and the strongest of the native states)
    197. Peoria (repurposed Illiniwek tag)
    198. Sauk
    199. Fox
    200. Sioux
    201. Pawnee
    202. Wichita
    203. Caddo
    204. The Pilgrims (Christian missionary order)
    205. ???
    206. ???
    207. ???
    208. ???
    209. ???
    210. ???
    211. ???
    212. ???
    213. ???
    214. Hadhramut
    215. ???
    216. ??? (Zhourao? that's what Divergences calls this country) (Han Australia best Australia)
    217. ???
    218. ???
    219. ???
    220. ???
    221. ???
    222. ???
    223. Yamato
    224. Hata
    225. Baraku
    226. Mitsukoshi
    227. Kuroba
    228. Hinomoto
    229. Hitakami
    230. Carthage
    231. Numidia
    232. ???
    233. ???
     
  4. Krzowwh

    Krzowwh King

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    For Chinese Australia, I propose Baijinzhou (白金州). Although Baijin (literally "White Gold") usually refers to platinum, it used to refer to nickel as well, which is quite plentiful in Australia. It is also a semi-reference to the Baijini of Yolngu legend, who some fringe historians theorize to have been Chinese sailors. I think this type of naming confusion is perfect for colony names.

    EDIT: Also, you should put the Github link in the OP
     
  5. Civ'ed

    Civ'ed I ain't gotta explain a thing

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  6. SouthernKing

    SouthernKing crickety cricket

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    Did I ever say I love you and you're the best? Because you are.

    There are just some minor changes I would suggest (mostly to bring the Mideast into line with the map in the OP) but ill post those later and this is what we should start working from. Nice.

    Github is in OP now.

    edit: there we go. ofc, further edits can be made where necessary.

    Spoiler :


    Personal suggestions:
    -Move Tupis further inland? There's plenty of room for them there now. I have no clue about the rest of South America.
    -For Mexico, I had an awful thought. What if a group of Norsemen from Vinland, driven south sometime after 1300 due to the climate cooling (which is why I moved Vinland a little bit south into New Brunswick and Maine), sailed down the coast and found and invaded, successfully conquering only part of the region just because of numerical disadvantage, thus beginning a prolonged struggle between the Mesoamericans and Norsemen that continues to this day? It's not the most plausible, but it'd be cool to have Vikings in Mexico and the Caribbean, and we get a semi-reasonable backstory for Aztecs fighting Vikings :D
    -Should Baijinzhou go in north Australia now that there are provinces there? Eastern Indonesia I suppose could have a few tribal states to partly fill the area out, the Philippines should maybe get one or two more states, and that plus whatever goes in Korea and Manchuria finishes Asia.
    -Sub-Saharan Africa. What goes there? I thought maybe put Hellenic Zanzibar (and Hellenic Mogadishu), but the rest of West Africa and the rest of the continent are still empty.

    Edit #2: I am in no way that much knowledgable on China and so Krzowwh feel free to discard this suggestion if it makes no sense.

    The Western model of religion obviously breaks down and makes close to zero sense wwhen applied to China. So what if, instead of using religion to represent actual religion, we used it to represent the dominant political philosophy (Legalism/Confucianism/Daoism/etc.) of the state (on the country level) and the province's elites or whatever (on the provincial level) which could be changed easily via events/decisions/missionary bonuses and with the respective modifiers that make it operate rather differently from rotw religion.

    I feel like this would be an interesting dynamic.

    Christianity, Hellenism, Manichaeism, miscellaneous pagans, and whatnot can still be used to represent heathen countries and provinces where said religion is the majority.
     
  7. Krzowwh

    Krzowwh King

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    Here is a more organic-looking Eastern Asia. I also added an additional Chinese daimyo Hou state to balance out the region while also making two for each Chinese culture (Qi, Qin, and Chu).

    Spoiler :


    I also drew up a new culture map that also includes Japan, Manchuria, and Northern Southeast Asia (three cardinal directions). I decided that some of the names were too distant to be recognizable, and changed them with alternate names that you could (somewhat) more easily find using a search engine. I don't know what would be an appropriate name for the Tuunghai dominant culture (light red). Perhaps Shimanchu or Shimagwa (both colloquial versions of Island Person in Okinawan)?

    Spoiler :


    EDIT: I don't believe there was that much conflict over differing ideology/philosophy after the Zhou dynasty (as Qin Shi Huang did a very good job at dealing with dissenting philosophies), but it would make for a very interesting scenario and mechanic. I feel that perhaps some sort of "secular" versus "religious" spectrum would be more accurate. Some emperors were against all foreign religions (Buddhism, Manichaeism, Christianity), some were against all religious movements (including Taoism), some were only against Western religions (Christianity and Manichaeism), some were open (did not care) to all religions. So I think the best way to model that would be to have separate "religions" in the Eastern religious group, with the tolerance of heretics and heathens number adjusted radically. To be honest, I don't think Taoism and Confucianism are even in the same category. Taoism to me is a lot more spiritual and superstitious, somewhere between magi and doctor. There are certainly skeptics of Taoist practices as well as believers (although perhaps not in a religious sense). In comparison, Confucianism and Legalism are almost entirely political/philosophical and akin to Objectivism or Marxism. There's not really much you can or can't believe, just whether you believe it's a good system.
     
  8. CivOasis

    CivOasis Ahuizotl

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    Aren't the Min Yuet a bit far west here? Similarly, the Nam Yuet seems like it should also spread a bit further east...
     
  9. Krzowwh

    Krzowwh King

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    I tried to make the implication that the failed Han conquest of the south displaced the Zhuang peoples (here represented roughly by Tai Rau), which explains why there is a more spread out Tai population in Southern China. One group moving east would shift the Min Yuet slightly, and a group moving south towards the coast split them up from the Nam Yuet. In this way, it might be reminiscent of the history of the Hakka.
     
  10. SouthernKing

    SouthernKing crickety cricket

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    Thanks for that. I may have made one or two mistakes if I so correct me if I did. I also gave the Maldives to Chola to encourage them to do more naval activities or even colonization on that side of the ocean.

    Spoiler :


    I also tried my hand at Indian cultures.

    Spoiler :


    (South) Dravidian (I doubt this would have been affected by migrations that much, so this is basically identical to OTL)
    -Malayalam
    -Kannada
    -Tamil
    -Telugu

    North Dravidian (Probably could use a better name but it works. Could also theoretically be merged with South Dravidian but the Gondi and Kolami are different enough - far more tribal, for one - that a separate group is probably warranted)
    -Gondi
    -Kolami

    An Indo-European group I don't know what to call, Konkan maybe?
    -Vindhya (Shares a name with a mountain range, but it comes from the Sanskrit word for hunter so works out well enough)
    -Prakrit (Different name for OTL Marathi)

    Gangetic (All cultures that were Hellenized)
    -Gangai
    -Magadhi
    -Vajji
    -Angi
    -Kalingan

    Alani (For these I just used Hindicized (?) versions of historical names of the Alans or their land, which ended up producing an unintentional ASOIAF reference, yay)
    -Aursi
    -Yunkai

    Tibeto-Burman
    -Kashmiri
    -Nepali
    both should go in that group.

    Tai
    -I would add another Tai culture, which is the purple in Assam and thereabouts. I have no idea what to call this, maybe Tai Ahom because the Ahom people exist, but I don't know.

    Whatever group Bactria and so forth eventually go in
    -Indican should go there
     
  11. Krzowwh

    Krzowwh King

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    I think Kashmiri and Nepali should go with Tocharian rather than Tibetan (Peri-Seric perhaps?).
    If we already have Gangetic, could we call "North Dravidian" Godavaric? For the Indo-European group, Dakkhani maybe?

    As for Tai Ahom, considering that the Shan are sometimes called Tai Mao after the Kingdom of Mao, we could call them Tai Pong after the Kingdom of Pong.
     
  12. SouthernKing

    SouthernKing crickety cricket

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    Agreed on Kashmiri - for some reason stupid me thought Tocharian was in Tibeto-Burman while I was doing this. But I still feel that Nepal is closer to Tibetan than , and a southwards-focused Tibet is likely to put even more influence on Nepali.

    Thanks for the names.

    At this point, I think we should actually start working on at least a few mod files. I think culture and religion are a good place to start, and this can be done pretty easily once we know what the final lists are (especially culture as it doesn't require new icons). Mind you, they can still be edited pretty easily after that.

    Culture:

    Spoiler :


    Brythonic:
    -Cumbric
    -Welsh

    Insular:
    -Breton
    -Irish
    -Other French/Gallic celts

    Musta'rib:
    -Arab-Breton
    -Arab-Brythonic
    -Arab-Latin

    North Germanic:
    -Danish
    -Norwegian
    -Swedish
    -Vinlandic

    West Germanic:
    -Angle
    -Batavian
    -Frankish
    -Frisian
    -Jute
    -Lombard
    -Saxon

    East Germanic:
    -Burgundian
    -Gothic
    -Rugii
    -Vandal

    Baltic:
    -Prussian
    -Latvian
    -Lithuanian
    -Yotvingian
    -Galindian

    Finno-Ugric (Ripped almost straight from vanilla; the reason there are so many is that this extends into uncolonized Siberia)
    -Estonian
    -Finnish
    -Karelian
    -Moksha
    -Ostyak
    -Sami
    -Samoyed
    -Uralic

    African:
    -Berber
    -others

    Latin:
    -Aquitanian
    -Hispanic
    -Illyrian
    -Roman
    -Transalpine

    Hellenistic:
    -Anatolian
    -Armenaian
    -Georgian
    -Greek

    Semitic:
    -Arab
    -Egyptian
    -Hebrew
    -Phoenecian
    -Syrian

    Iranian:
    -Babylonian
    -Baluchi
    -Parthian (Renamed from Khorasani)
    -Persian
    -Scythian

    Peri-Seric:
    -Bactrian
    -Chorasmian
    -Indican
    -Kashmiri
    -Tocharian

    Gangetic:
    -Gangai
    -Magadhi
    -Vajji
    -Angi
    -Kalingan

    Alani:
    -Aursi
    -Yunkai

    Dakkhani:
    -Matsya (Adding this one between Avanti/Vindhya and Gangai/Magadhi to make the region feel a bit more organic)
    -Avanti (Renamed from Vindhya)
    -Prakrit

    Godavric:
    -Gondi
    -Kolami

    Dravidian:
    -Kannada
    -Malayalam
    -Tamil
    -Telugu

    Han:
    -Chu
    -Qi
    -Qin
    -Shu
    -Fusou

    Tibeto-Burman [needs a better name]:
    -Nuosu
    -Qiang
    -Tibetan
    -Pyu
    -Sein

    Tai:
    -Tai Luang (Shan)
    -Tai Noi
    -Tai Rau
    -Tai Pong

    Bak Yuet:
    -Hmao
    -Min Yuet
    -Nam Yuet

    Shiwei:
    -Hiung Nu
    -Syanbi
    -Magyar [presumably would have close cultural interaction like the Turks within the Mongol Empire]
    -Evenkil

    Sushen:
    -Mishihase (renamed from Sushen)
    -Emisi

    Yashima:
    -Wa [Yayoi type]
    -Saeki [Emisi-influenced, Jomon type]
    -Shimagwa

    Joseon:
    -Malgal
    -Ye


    Religion:

    Spoiler :

    European:
    -Insular
    -Germanic
    -Norse
    -Romuva
    -Suomensko

    American:
    -Great Spirit (Dominant religion of Mississippi region from Sioux to Chickasaw at least)
    -Longhouse (Used by Iroquois, Huron, Miami, Fox, Sauk, and possibly several others in the area)
    -However you want to split up Central/South America

    Hellenic:
    -Imperial
    -Reformed
    -Eastern
    -Western

    Abrahamic (low tolerance of both heretics and heathens)
    -Christian
    -Islamic
    -Jewish
    -Covenant

    Indo-Seric (Significantly high tolerance of heretics, significantly lower tolerance of heathens; additionally, if we want to do the secularism/religion meter, we could reappropriate Orthodox Patriarch authority in to a "religious authority" meter for at least some of these):
    -Hinduism
    -Yavana (Buddhism in Europe and Central Asia; the name comes from a Sanskritization of Ionian, which would be appropriate in this context I think)
    -Vajrayana (Buddhism in Indian Ocean rim)
    -Mahayana (Buddhism in East Asia)
    -Shenist
    -Shinto
    -Taoist

    Uncategorized:
    -Mithraic
    -Manichaean
    -Zoroastrian
    -West African
    -Animist (Generic paganism for natives or regions that don't warrant separate pagans)


    In the end this should total up to approximately 25-30 religions which is reasonable.
     
  13. Omega124

    Omega124 Challenging Fate

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    Ew/10. I disapprove of this whole heartingly.

    Make sure Norse and Germanic don't have much malus between each other, if any. For almost all intents and purposes, they're essentially the same as OTL Orthodox and Catholicism, and both tolerated each other's existence.
     
  14. SouthernKing

    SouthernKing crickety cricket

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    Oh fine :p Longhouse religion it is.

    If we stick with the European grouping then we could add that in and just give them a high heretic tolerance, as I don't really see any of those religions having much reason to fight any of the others over purely religious reasons.
     
  15. NinjaCow64

    NinjaCow64 The Continuation of the Dream Supporter

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    We could also give them the "Misguided Heretic" modifier. It's the modifier that Catholics have with Orthodox (and Ortho-Clones) and vice-versa. A lot less harsh than just "Heretic".
     
  16. Terran Empress

    Terran Empress Hornet

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    I acutaly really like this idea
     
  17. Krzowwh

    Krzowwh King

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    Here's a revised grouping for Northeast Asian cultures:

    Spoiler :
    Shiwei:
    -Hiung Nu
    -Syanbi
    -Magyar [presumably would have close cultural interaction like the Turks within the Mongol Empire]
    -Evenkil

    Sushen:
    -Mishihase (renamed from Sushen)
    -Emisi

    Yashima:
    -Wa [Yayoi type]
    -Saeki [Emisi-influenced, Jomon type]
    -Shimagwa

    Joseon:
    -Malgal
    -Ye


    For the Shu culture Sichuan state, I suggest some sort of despotic state with an extraordinarily grandiose name reminiscent of Taiping and Dachanghe. I have also added Han-culture into the cultures file on Github, with some leftover names I'm planning to add for the non-royal surnames in the country files.
     
  18. SouthernKing

    SouthernKing crickety cricket

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    SK IS OF GENIOUS MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Spoiler :


    Spoiler :


    Okay, more seriously. Italya's 38K doomstack isn't permanent, I just don't know how to mod order of battle. I also have no idea what's causing the color glitch for SPQR. I'll sync this version with github once my internet stops dying on me. Italya is temporarily Sunni and SPQR temporarily Orthodox until the religion files get figured out. For that matter, I suggest keeping vanilla religions that we're not using in the religion files at first, such that it'll be easier to do the modding if vanilla remains vanilla and doesn't crash because we completely removed Orthodox from the game.

    I'm just going to use filler names for names (hence hilarity such as Jamaal Laskaris); if people want to help out and provide names for cultures, then I love you and you're more than welcome to, but to get this done faster that is something I personally am not going to do until later.

    Also I'm not sure how to handle putting tech groups in the mod; both of these are in the non-imperial Hellenic category so they conveniently fit in Eastern and I gave them Eastern units. I would suggest keeping the vanilla tech groups for now (obviously using equivalents where necessary) and just using filler units until we can make the units make sense - so we could just use i.e. England's units for Imperial Hellenic, Russia's for non-Imperial Hellenic, Ottomans for Abrahamic, Morocco's for Muslim, Vijayanagar's for Indo-Seric, and Ming's for Europe. Temporarily, of course.

    Highest priority right now is getting the religion files figured out, I think.
     
  19. Terran Empress

    Terran Empress Hornet

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    Noice, but I thought that SPQR was going to be an oligarchic republic?
     
  20. SouthernKing

    SouthernKing crickety cricket

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    That is my mistake, I'll change it in the next revision.
     

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