Greecemod: Not a Byzwank, Promise (EU4 althist mod creation/discussion thread)

SouthernKing · Oct 30, 2014

Spoiler :

Canonized. I've also added Korea just so there's not a gap there, it can obviously be changed at a later date. I've also finalized the Maghreb, whose borders look horrendous now but won't in the final map because AoW made the borders much nicer.

New labelled map as well. I didn't label Korea yet because it might be changed?

Spoiler :

Krzowwh · Oct 31, 2014

For Chinese Australia, I propose Baijinzhou (白金&#24030

. Although Baijin (literally "White Gold") usually refers to platinum, it used to refer to nickel as well, which is quite plentiful in Australia. It is also a semi-reference to the Baijini of Yolngu legend, who some fringe historians theorize to have been Chinese sailors. I think this type of naming confusion is perfect for colony names.

EDIT: Also, you should put the Github link in the OP

Civ'ed · Nov 1, 2014

Gentlemen, I found something on the reddits that may be of use
I'll get to work translating the borders on Old!Map to New!Map now.
Edit:

Spoiler :

SouthernKing · Nov 1, 2014

Did I ever say I love you and you're the best? Because you are.

There are just some minor changes I would suggest (mostly to bring the Mideast into line with the map in the OP) but ill post those later and this is what we should start working from. Nice.

Github is in OP now.

edit: there we go. ofc, further edits can be made where necessary.

Spoiler :

Personal suggestions:
-Move Tupis further inland? There's plenty of room for them there now. I have no clue about the rest of South America.
-For Mexico, I had an awful thought. What if a group of Norsemen from Vinland, driven south sometime after 1300 due to the climate cooling (which is why I moved Vinland a little bit south into New Brunswick and Maine), sailed down the coast and found and invaded, successfully conquering only part of the region just because of numerical disadvantage, thus beginning a prolonged struggle between the Mesoamericans and Norsemen that continues to this day? It's not the most plausible, but it'd be cool to have Vikings in Mexico and the Caribbean, and we get a semi-reasonable backstory for Aztecs fighting Vikings

-Should Baijinzhou go in north Australia now that there are provinces there? Eastern Indonesia I suppose could have a few tribal states to partly fill the area out, the Philippines should maybe get one or two more states, and that plus whatever goes in Korea and Manchuria finishes Asia.
-Sub-Saharan Africa. What goes there? I thought maybe put Hellenic Zanzibar (and Hellenic Mogadishu), but the rest of West Africa and the rest of the continent are still empty.

Edit #2: I am in no way that much knowledgable on China and so Krzowwh feel free to discard this suggestion if it makes no sense.

The Western model of religion obviously breaks down and makes close to zero sense wwhen applied to China. So what if, instead of using religion to represent actual religion, we used it to represent the dominant political philosophy (Legalism/Confucianism/Daoism/etc.) of the state (on the country level) and the province's elites or whatever (on the provincial level) which could be changed easily via events/decisions/missionary bonuses and with the respective modifiers that make it operate rather differently from rotw religion.

I feel like this would be an interesting dynamic.

Christianity, Hellenism, Manichaeism, miscellaneous pagans, and whatnot can still be used to represent heathen countries and provinces where said religion is the majority.

Krzowwh · Nov 1, 2014

Here is a more organic-looking Eastern Asia. I also added an additional Chinese ~~daimyo~~ Hou state to balance out the region while also making two for each Chinese culture (Qi, Qin, and Chu).

Spoiler :

I also drew up a new culture map that also includes Japan, Manchuria, and Northern Southeast Asia (three cardinal directions). I decided that some of the names were too distant to be recognizable, and changed them with alternate names that you could (somewhat) more easily find using a search engine. I don't know what would be an appropriate name for the Tuunghai dominant culture (light red). Perhaps Shimanchu or Shimagwa (both colloquial versions of Island Person in Okinawan)?

Spoiler :

EDIT: I don't believe there was that much conflict over differing ideology/philosophy after the Zhou dynasty (as Qin Shi Huang did a very good job at dealing with dissenting philosophies), but it would make for a very interesting scenario and mechanic. I feel that perhaps some sort of "secular" versus "religious" spectrum would be more accurate. Some emperors were against all foreign religions (Buddhism, Manichaeism, Christianity), some were against all religious movements (including Taoism), some were only against Western religions (Christianity and Manichaeism), some were open (did not care) to all religions. So I think the best way to model that would be to have separate "religions" in the Eastern religious group, with the tolerance of heretics and heathens number adjusted radically. To be honest, I don't think Taoism and Confucianism are even in the same category. Taoism to me is a lot more spiritual and superstitious, somewhere between magi and doctor. There are certainly skeptics of Taoist practices as well as believers (although perhaps not in a religious sense). In comparison, Confucianism and Legalism are almost entirely political/philosophical and akin to Objectivism or Marxism. There's not really much you can or can't believe, just whether you believe it's a good system.

CivOasis · Nov 1, 2014

Aren't the Min Yuet a bit far west here? Similarly, the Nam Yuet seems like it should also spread a bit further east...

Krzowwh · Nov 2, 2014

CivOasis said:
Aren't the Min Yuet a bit far west here? Similarly, the Nam Yuet seems like it should also spread a bit further east...

I tried to make the implication that the failed Han conquest of the south displaced the Zhuang peoples (here represented roughly by Tai Rau), which explains why there is a more spread out Tai population in Southern China. One group moving east would shift the Min Yuet slightly, and a group moving south towards the coast split them up from the Nam Yuet. In this way, it might be reminiscent of the history of the Hakka.

SouthernKing · Nov 2, 2014

Thanks for that. I may have made one or two mistakes if I so correct me if I did. I also gave the Maldives to Chola to encourage them to do more naval activities or even colonization on that side of the ocean.

Spoiler :

I also tried my hand at Indian cultures.

Spoiler :

(South) Dravidian (I doubt this would have been affected by migrations that much, so this is basically identical to OTL)
-Malayalam
-Kannada
-Tamil
-Telugu

North Dravidian (Probably could use a better name but it works. Could also theoretically be merged with South Dravidian but the Gondi and Kolami are different enough - far more tribal, for one - that a separate group is probably warranted)
-Gondi
-Kolami

An Indo-European group I don't know what to call, Konkan maybe?
-Vindhya (Shares a name with a mountain range, but it comes from the Sanskrit word for hunter so works out well enough)
-Prakrit (Different name for OTL Marathi)

Gangetic (All cultures that were Hellenized)
-Gangai
-Magadhi
-Vajji
-Angi
-Kalingan

Alani (For these I just used Hindicized (?) versions of historical names of the Alans or their land, which ended up producing an unintentional ASOIAF reference, yay)
-Aursi
-Yunkai

Tibeto-Burman
-Kashmiri
-Nepali
both should go in that group.

Tai
-I would add another Tai culture, which is the purple in Assam and thereabouts. I have no idea what to call this, maybe Tai Ahom because the Ahom people exist, but I don't know.

Whatever group Bactria and so forth eventually go in
-Indican should go there

Krzowwh · Nov 3, 2014

I think Kashmiri and Nepali should go with Tocharian rather than Tibetan (Peri-Seric perhaps?).
If we already have Gangetic, could we call "North Dravidian" Godavaric? For the Indo-European group, Dakkhani maybe?

As for Tai Ahom, considering that the Shan are sometimes called Tai Mao after the Kingdom of Mao, we could call them Tai Pong after the Kingdom of Pong.

SouthernKing · Nov 3, 2014

Krzowwh said:
I think Kashmiri and Nepali should go with Tocharian rather than Tibetan (Peri-Seric perhaps?).
If we already have Gangetic, could we call "North Dravidian" Godavaric? For the Indo-European group, Dakkhani maybe?

As for Tai Ahom, considering that the Shan are sometimes called Tai Mao after the Kingdom of Mao, we could call them Tai Pong after the Kingdom of Pong.

Agreed on Kashmiri - for some reason stupid me thought Tocharian was in Tibeto-Burman while I was doing this. But I still feel that Nepal is closer to Tibetan than , and a southwards-focused Tibet is likely to put even more influence on Nepali.

Thanks for the names.

At this point, I think we should actually start working on at least a few mod files. I think culture and religion are a good place to start, and this can be done pretty easily once we know what the final lists are (especially culture as it doesn't require new icons). Mind you, they can still be edited pretty easily after that.

Culture:

Spoiler :

Religion:

Spoiler :

In the end this should total up to approximately 25-30 religions which is reasonable.

Omega124 · Nov 3, 2014

The Iroquois should be Norse

Ew/10. I disapprove of this whole heartingly.

Make sure Norse and Germanic don't have much malus between each other, if any. For almost all intents and purposes, they're essentially the same as OTL Orthodox and Catholicism, and both tolerated each other's existence.

SouthernKing · Nov 3, 2014

Omega124 said:
Ew/10. I disapprove of this whole heartingly.

Make sure Norse and Germanic don't have much malus between each other, if any. For almost all intents and purposes, they're essentially the same as OTL Orthodox and Catholicism, and both tolerated each other's existence.

Oh fine

Longhouse religion it is.

If we stick with the European grouping then we could add that in and just give them a high heretic tolerance, as I don't really see any of those religions having much reason to fight any of the others over purely religious reasons.

NinjaCow64 · Nov 3, 2014

SouthernKing said:
Oh fine Longhouse religion it is.

If we stick with the European grouping then we could add that in and just give them a high heretic tolerance, as I don't really see any of those religions having much reason to fight any of the others over purely religious reasons.

We could also give them the "Misguided Heretic" modifier. It's the modifier that Catholics have with Orthodox (and Ortho-Clones) and vice-versa. A lot less harsh than just "Heretic".

Terran Empress · Nov 3, 2014

NinjaCow64 said:
We could also give them the "Misguided Heretic" modifier. It's the modifier that Catholics have with Orthodox (and Ortho-Clones) and vice-versa. A lot less harsh than just "Heretic".

I acutaly really like this idea

Krzowwh · Nov 4, 2014

Here's a revised grouping for Northeast Asian cultures:

Spoiler :

For the Shu culture Sichuan state, I suggest some sort of despotic state with an extraordinarily grandiose name reminiscent of Taiping and Dachanghe. I have also added Han-culture into the cultures file on Github, with some leftover names I'm planning to add for the non-royal surnames in the country files.

SouthernKing · Nov 4, 2014

SK IS OF GENIOUS MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Spoiler :

Okay, more seriously. Italya's 38K doomstack isn't permanent, I just don't know how to mod order of battle. I also have no idea what's causing the color glitch for SPQR. I'll sync this version with github once my internet stops dying on me. Italya is temporarily Sunni and SPQR temporarily Orthodox until the religion files get figured out. For that matter, I suggest keeping vanilla religions that we're not using in the religion files at first, such that it'll be easier to do the modding if vanilla remains vanilla and doesn't crash because we completely removed Orthodox from the game.

I'm just going to use filler names for names (hence hilarity such as Jamaal Laskaris); if people want to help out and provide names for cultures, then I love you and you're more than welcome to, but to get this done faster that is something I personally am not going to do until later.

Also I'm not sure how to handle putting tech groups in the mod; both of these are in the non-imperial Hellenic category so they conveniently fit in Eastern and I gave them Eastern units. I would suggest keeping the vanilla tech groups for now (obviously using equivalents where necessary) and just using filler units until we can make the units make sense - so we could just use i.e. England's units for Imperial Hellenic, Russia's for non-Imperial Hellenic, Ottomans for Abrahamic, Morocco's for Muslim, Vijayanagar's for Indo-Seric, and Ming's for Europe. Temporarily, of course.

Highest priority right now is getting the religion files figured out, I think.

Terran Empress · Nov 4, 2014

SouthernKing said:
SK IS OF GENIOUS MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Okay, more seriously. Italya's 38K doomstack isn't permanent, I just don't know how to mod order of battle. I also have no idea what's causing the color glitch for SPQR. I'll sync this version with github once my internet stops dying on me. Italya is temporarily Sunni and SPQR temporarily Orthodox until the religion files get figured out. For that matter, I suggest keeping vanilla religions that we're not using in the religion files at first, such that it'll be easier to do the modding if vanilla remains vanilla and doesn't crash because we completely removed Orthodox from the game.

I'm just going to use filler names for names (hence hilarity such as Jamaal Laskaris); if people want to help out and provide names for cultures, then I love you and you're more than welcome to, but to get this done faster that is something I personally am not going to do until later.

Also I'm not sure how to handle putting tech groups in the mod; both of these are in the non-imperial Hellenic category so they conveniently fit in Eastern and I gave them Eastern units. I would suggest keeping the vanilla tech groups for now (obviously using equivalents where necessary) and just using filler units until we can make the units make sense - so we could just use i.e. England's units for Imperial Hellenic, Russia's for non-Imperial Hellenic, Ottomans for Abrahamic, Morocco's for Muslim, Vijayanagar's for Indo-Seric, and Ming's for Europe. Temporarily, of course.

Highest priority right now is getting the religion files figured out, I think.

Noice, but I thought that SPQR was going to be an oligarchic republic?

SouthernKing · Nov 4, 2014

Terran Emperor said:
Noice, but I thought that SPQR was going to be an oligarchic republic?

That is my mistake, I'll change it in the next revision.

Polyblank · Nov 4, 2014

Speaking with SouthernKing in the chat gave me these new ideas which he told me to post here.
The first was a reformation for Islam. At first, I thought about having it be a definite division between the Muzatilite school of Sunni thought and the Ashari one.
Then, I thought of having it happen when the muslims conquer a hellenic state in the HRE like Athens. SE threw back the idea of a Roman - centric Muslim reformation.
Also, regarding the jewish states, an event could happen named " The coming of the Messiah ". Either you accept him and you get a 6/6/6 ruler or you refuse and a revolt breaks out leaded by him.

Polyblank · Nov 4, 2014

Also, Hellenic nation in ~~Cuba~~ Atlantis

Greecemod: Not a Byzwank, Promise (EU4 althist mod creation/discussion thread)

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