Grigori : Brainstorm Thread

[WarKirby]

reading that, I think Cassiel needs an Agrarian trait. +1 food from farms, but blocked from using Aristocracy.
Oh, and perhaps having the farmer's guild auto placed in his cities, like the Masquerade fro the balseraphs.


Some way of gaining refugees from foreign wars might be nice too.


Oh, and I kind of tink his alignment should be Good, not neutral. He;s not on the side of the good gods, per se. But he seems like just about the most "actual" good leader there is.


It also seems like it would be a good idea for Grigori to have lots of non-specialist ways to gain great people. And reduced yiels from specialists.

It would be pretty reasonable to add some GP to the Museum. And maybe that Hall of Wonders thing.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Cassiel can see spirits because he is an archangel. It is not an ability other Grigori have, and it is probably not something Cassiel would ever tell the living that he could do. The spirits of the dead that he comes across would just be those who are slow to find a passage to the Netherworld to find rest.


I might be able to be convinced that Adventurers could sometimes get Spirit Guide, but I don't really think a ghost based strategy fits the Grigori that well.



Adventures may be one reason Cassiel has philosophical, but lore wise it fits him better then anyone else as well. He was the most highly revered philosopher in the Age of Magic, and still prefers to just give out philosophical advice rather than actually run an empire. He is a very philosophical, very libertarian character.



Cassiel is known to love the concept of the self sufficient yeoman farmer, and to dislike professionals, especially bankers and politicians. The government he set up is actual a feudal system. I believe the "nobles" in this system are lifetime appointments (not elected officials), but can be thrown out of office through petitions. (Cassiel want the people to decide who rules them, but does not want to risk letting political parties take over and finds electoral campaigns to generally be inane.) They are really more like Justices of the Peace than lords, and they do not have the authority to levy taxes. (Cassiel recognized taxation, like banking, usually ends up being controlled by those who worship Mammon.) They tend to be average members of the community that are given extra responsibilities without getting extra rights. They have very little ability to force those in their districts to comply with their decisions, and must always rely on volunteers. Their society doesn't seem to mind that much when the volunteers don't show up. Officially all the adventurers are members of local Grigori militias, but most of them spend most of their time AWOL.


Guilds in general smack of the influence of Mammon, and so Cassiel would strongly oppose them. He wants personal responsibility, and would not like the idea of either unions or corporations. Cassiel would probably loose all his respect for farmers if they lobbied for a farm subsidy program like we have now.


Although Cassiel set up the Ordine Medicos, he is strongly opposed to public healthcare. He wants individuals to take responsibility for their own health and does not want a bureaucracy to interfere with the relationship between a doctor and his patient.




Cassiel strongly opposes fanaticism on both sides, and dislikes the Mercurians and Bannor as much as the Infernal and Sheaim. However, his dislike of fanaticism in no way gives him the pragmatism that usually characterized neutrality in FfH, in fact he is one of the least practical, least compromising leaders in the game. I suspect that he gets along quite well with the Elohim, and considers their founder Immanuel Logos a personal hero (and, quite possibly, a close personal friend back when they both devoted themselves to caring for the victims of the godswar). I suspect that this respect has carried on to the first Logos's successors and that he and Einion get along quite well; however, he would have big problems with Ethne. Although Cassiel and Sabathiel have never agreed on a whole lot, they have long been very close friends and greatly respect each other despite Cassiel's enmity with Junil.

 

[Lone Wolf]

So, the main issue with Grigori is that the mechanics they have is mostly warmongerish, and they need something peaceful as well. I suggest adding more focus on Great People, which quite fits their humanistic lore. Like adding a Forum UB instead of Market, with +25% to Great People and no beakers penalty.

If I make the Luonnotars able to build the first 1-2 stages of the Altar, what UNITAI I should give to them so that the AI will use that ability? Since they can't settle or lightbulb techs, will stuff like UNITAI_SCIENTIST crush the game?

 

[civ_king]

oh, oh, me! *raises hand*

Laroth !

wasn't it an angel sent to give it to Rathus (Gyra I think)...

Back on topic, the wonder should increase the spawn rate of Adventurers, and each mini-wonder should too, also each should have a special effect in addition to giving adventurer speed ups

 

[MagisterCultuum]

wasn't it an angel sent to give it to Rathus (Gyra I think)...

Yes, it was an angel who gave Rathaus the Netherblade, but it certainly was not Gyra.


The angel had blue skin and appeared to be very young, very old, and at every life stage in between all at the same time, in one unchanging form, and carried a chain in one hand and a key in the other. He clearly was an angel of Arawn, but (unbeknown to Rathaus) he served the god of death no longer. This angel had betrayed Arawn and sided with Laroth, and was indeed sent by Laroth to give Rathaus the blade his new master had forged from souls not strong enough to serve in his army another way. This angel may be the same one mentioned at the end of the scenarios, when Auric and Ethne are recruited to Laroth's army. I suspect he may be trying to angel his way into the position of the new archangel of death under the new god of death.

 

[Brokenbone]

I was trying out the Grigori under FF+, almost strictly to see if I could carry out that vision of an adventuring party of mixed Adventurers who'd fill out different roles like melee, recon, magic, etc., as Warkirby mentioned above. Lots of fun. However, noticed that Adventurers can't become Grigori Medics, so that threw off my idea for a party healer, oh well.

It did all bring to mind though that the Grigori being without a hero doesn't necessarily sit right with me. Heroes being more than just a plain old unit with the Hero promo and access to a couple Hero only promotions (whether Twincast, Heroic Strength etc.), I don't know, they can be pretty fun if a unique mechanic is associated with them. Since the Grigori have all kinds of ways to dominate with their plain but plentiful adventurer-heroes, maybe some kind of non-combat civ-wide hero would be enjoyable. Maybe he can explore rival territory and gain refugees from cities with unhappiness problems (may be too similar to Loki, to "drain" anything from a rival). Maybe he can walk the countryside discovering dungeons for Grigori adventurers to descend upon and plunder, or alternately, perhaps he himself could explore dungeons with a real healthy chance of good results, without the dungeon actually disappearing. Maybe he could in some sense "train" the many plain jane heroes of the Grigori to have some kind of unique promotion, giving them "Legendary Fame" or something that means when they visit a troubled city, the effects of Civic Unrest/Anger vanish ("Oh goody, Comillo is here, let's have a parade as opposed to a riot").

Anyhow, again, the Grigori get plenty of plain heroes, but a civ-wide one who can do something appropriate, other than be a juggernaut or something like that, may be a fun tweak to explore.

 

[civ_king]

we need to create a list of all items that need effects

 

[Redeyes]

Reading that, I think Cassiel needs an Agrarian trait. +1 food from farms, but blocked from using Aristocracy.
Oh, and perhaps having the farmer's guild auto placed in his cities, like the Masquerade fro the balseraphs.

Suggestion for Agrarian:

• +1 food in plot with 2 food
• Doubles production speed for Granary and Market

Markets are fundamental for the farmer, and the way I see it, self-reliant population should be of a benefit everywhere - not just with farms. I think it works on a balance level as well, as food and population is still capped by happiness and health. Perhaps adaptive should be dropped too, for gameplay reasons (agrarian + financial) and adaptive doesn't sound like the Cassiel we have seen in lore.

Adventures may be one reason Cassiel has philosophical, but lore wise it fits him better then anyone else as well. He was the most highly revered philosopher in the Age of Magic, and still prefers to just give out philosophical advice rather than actually run an empire. He is a very philosophical, very libertarian character.

The problem then would be that the game mechanics don't match the Grigori nature. As much elaborated in this thread they are supposed to have less specialists; this make philosophical a bad match by it heavily encouraging a specialist economy. It doesn't help that their favoured Civic, Pacifism, has the same effect.

Cassiel can see spirits because he is an archangel. It is not an ability other Grigori have, and it is probably not something Cassiel would ever tell the living that he could do. The spirits of the dead that he comes across would just be those who are slow to find a passage to the Netherworld to find rest.

In the Civopedia entry for Cassiel, the dead narrator actively seeks him out. So does other souls who died at the hand of the religious orders. The narrator's father was also able to see her spirit - the ability isn't unique to Cassiel. The merchants before Cassiel's throne certainly knew when he spoke to the intangible narrator, indicating some knowledge about the spirits.

The story makes it seem as if the spirits of the dead being drawn to Cassiel isn't random. Anyway, where are the unaligned spirits supposed to go? We have all seen how good spirits become angels and evil ones become manes.

Of the Agnostic nations the Griogri are in an unique position by gaining no benefit at all from the religious tech - they only find the altar there. If the Altar is going to be made part of the Grigori game the religous techs should be given other benefits. Ancestor worship isn't used anywhere else (to my knowledge) and is fundamentally about humans - no god, no central dogma, just a private matter between one's self and one's ancestors. Quite in line with Grigori and Cassiel's ideals. It also goes well with the museum and the idea up thread about the hall of wonders, with honoring what came before.


Another thing I wonder about is the ability for Grigori to build the Mercurian Gate. Perhaps a block against building it could be introduced? Cassiel seems to be completely opposed towards it, more than any other leader.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Anyway, where are the unaligned spirits supposed to go?

Arawn, I think.

As much elaborated in this thread they are supposed to have less specialists;

Sure, but on the other hand, all that enlightenment and humanism should lead to moar philosophy, culture and stuff. Less Great People to me suggests a repression of the individuality, which doesn't fit my image of Cassiel at all.

If the Altar is going to be made part of the Grigori game the religous techs should be made otherwise interesting.

Wouldn't they be interesting enough with the addition of the Altar? No ancestral worship, plz. Ugh. Again, something that goes against individuality and innovation.

In the Civopedia entry for Cassiel, the dead narrator actively seeks him out... etc.

The lore does have some contradictions and logically uncomfortable areas, true.

 

[Rystic]

I'm my TweakMod, I gave the Grigori the Diverse trait, that makes units born in their empire have a random race. It also replaces UU's (so you won't get an Orc Hunter, you'll get a Lizardman). It's actually a pretty fun mechanic. I also gave them a Museum (+10% culture, +1 from Marble, +1 Adventurer), and made Dragonslayers able to upgrade to Luonnatar.

 

[Valkrionn]

Suggestion for "Agrarian":

• +1 food in plot with 2 food
• Doubles production speed for Granary and Market

Markets are fundamental for the farmer, and the way I see it, self-reliant population should be of a benefit everywhere - not just with farms. I think it works on a balance level as well, as food and population is still capped by happiness and health. Perhaps adaptive should be dropped as well now, for gameplay reasons (agrarian + financial) and adaptive doesn't sound like the Cassiel we have looked at in this thread.

That's basically in FFPlus, although I don't have the production bonuses... should add them.

I'm my TweakMod, I gave the Grigori the Diverse trait, that makes units born in their empire have a random race. It also replaces UU's (so you won't get an Orc Hunter, you'll get a Lizardman). It's actually a pretty fun mechanic. I also gave them a Museum (+10% culture, +1 from Marble, +1 Adventurer), and made Dragonslayers able to upgrade to Luonnatar.

And I need to look into that trait...

 

[WarKirby]

we need to create a list of all items that need effects

I don';t think any of the minor dungeon rewards should count.

Major items

Orthus' Axe
Godslayer
Crown of Command
War
Athame
Staff of Souls
Empty Bier
Black Mirror
Nether Blade
Dragon's Hoard
Syllivan's Perfect Lyre
Crown of Akharien

Essentially, any item that a hero starts with, or is created through some special event. so that in most cases, there will be a real way to pursue it, rather than hoping for the 0.0001% odds of getting it from a dungeon spawn.

 

[civ_king]

I don';t think any of the minor dungeon rewards should count.

Major items

Orthus' Axe
Godslayer
Crown of Command
War
Athame
Staff of Souls
Empty Bier
Black Mirror
Nether Blade
Dragon's Hoard
Syllivan's Perfect Lyre
Crown of Akharien

Essentially, any item that a hero starts with, or is created through some special event. so that in most cases, there will be a real way to pursue it, rather than hoping for the 0.0001% odds of getting it from a dungeon spawn.

first, all increase adventurer spawn rate
here it goes

Orthus' Axe: gives courage and valor, because the destroyer of civilizations was killed

Godslayer: needs a huge bonus, because having it means AA was killeda and the sword is goddamn powerful

Crown of Command: all units get that one promotion which can make units turn sides

War: Heroic 1 offense and defense (increased protection against war)

Athame: 1 poison strength and immunity

Staff of Souls: Provides life 1 to all arcane (take a gander at why)

Empty Bier:

Black Mirror:

Nether Blade: simply provides major boost to spawn rate



Dragon's Hoard: creates it's one building already...
Syllivan's Perfect Lyre: creates it's one building already...
Crown of Akharien: creates it's one building already...

 

[WarKirby]

I was trying out the Grigori under FF+, almost strictly to see if I could carry out that vision of an adventuring party of mixed Adventurers who'd fill out different roles like melee, recon, magic, etc., as Warkirby mentioned above. Lots of fun. However, noticed that Adventurers can't become Grigori Medics, so that threw off my idea for a party healer, oh well.

Oh, riiiight. now I remember

I edited that in. I felt it was silly that they can't upgrade to medics.

could you make this change valk?

 

[civ_king]

Oh, riiiight. now I remember

I edited that in. I felt it was silly that they can't upgrade to medics.

could you make this change valk?

comment on what I said please

 

[WarKirby]

first, all increase adventurer spawn rate
here it goes

Orthus' Axe: gives courage and valor, because the destroyer of civilizations was killed

Godslayer: needs a huge bonus, because having it means AA was killeda and the sword is goddamn powerful

Crown of Command: all units get that one promotion which can make units turn sides

War: Heroic 1 offense and defense (increased protection against war)

Athame: 1 poison strength and immunity

Staff of Souls: Provides life 1 to all arcane (take a gander at why)

Empty Bier:

Black Mirror:

Nether Blade: simply provides major boost to spawn rate



Dragon's Hoard: creates it's one building already...
Syllivan's Perfect Lyre: creates it's one building already...
Crown of Akharien: creates it's one building already...

Well, I was thinking more, that having these things in a city with the Hall of Wonders, would negate their normal benefit, but offer additional civilisation wide benefits.

With orthus, I'm thinking all current and new units could have a 50% chance to gain Courage.

The Dragon's Hoard could instantly and permanantly add Dragon slaying to every unit you currently have, and ever will have.

Godslayer does need to be good, I agree. I think a permanant +3 strength to all of your units. Would that be too much?

Crown of Command: All units (existing and future) gain a promotion that grants 5% conversion chance after battle.

Perfect Lyre: +25% in all cities, and possibly negates culture penalties from civics.
You get the idea.

Generally, I think here, the idea should be that you forgo the ability of these items to power up one unit or city, and instead give a global benefit to your whole civ. It indicates the value of the common man, over gods and heroes. Every new artifact you bring home would power up your normal soldiers in some way

 

[Valkrionn]

Oh, riiiight. now I remember

I edited that in. I felt it was silly that they can't upgrade to medics.

could you make this change valk?

Didn't know that they couldn't.... That's rather ridiculous. I'm going to change that one.

 

[Redeyes]

Wouldn't they be interesting enough with the addition of the Altar? No ancestral worship, plz. Again, something that goes against individuality and innovation.

Well, I figured that altar alone puts them in a bad situation competitvely. All other nations get priests, and an assortment of other benfits from going down the religious line. Researching "Priesthood" could mean inventing a "Priestslayer-bot" to the Grigori; I'm happy as long as they have something

I don't think ancestral worship goes "against individuality and innovation" as long as it is taken with moderation, and moderation looks to be a Grigori keyword...

 

[WarKirby]

Magister has nice ideas for Luonnotar

 

[Lone Wolf]

All other nations get priests, and an assortment of other benfits from going down the religious line. Researching "Priesthood" could mean inventing a "Priestslayer-bot" to the Grigori; I'm happy as long as they have something

I'd want to add something to Grigori religion line, I'd just turn it into a bit of an anti-religion line, yeah.

I don't think ancestral worship goes "against individuality and innovation" as long as it is taken with moderation, and moderation looks to be a Grigori keyword...

Not really, it'll just be a moderate tendency against individuality and innovation instead of a raging crusade against them. "Ancestral worship" sounds very reactionary to me and incompatible with humanitarian ideas of Cassiel. He doesn't look like he'd subscribe to the idea that people, who lived in the past, are better then people living in the present, just because they lived in the past and deserve worship because of it.

Then again, after reading all that I'm not sure is Cassiel a libertarian philosopher with respect to individuality, or is he more of a softer, pacifist Pol Pot. (For my personal interpretation, I prefer the former). But neither of these two types seem to be those who'd like ancestral worship.