Dean_the_Young
King
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2009
- Messages
- 811
I think the biggest change that the Grigori deserve would be a new leader. Someone who's a 'harder' alternative to Cassiel, the Federalist to Cassiel's Jeffersonian democracy, so to speak. With the Grigori being so big on philosophy and personal advancement, it only makes sense that eventually mortal political rivals to Cassiel would rise up and challenge what is 'best' and sincerely disagree with him on a number of issues, such as favoring urban specialism as opposed to Cassiel's agrarianism, or centralization to prepare for crisis to local-level decentralization and mere reactions. Giving the Grigori someone who would much more willingly go to war in the name of the Grigori people (and the world) would make the war-mongering aspects of the Grigori more flavorful.
For Cassiel himself, though, they still need a peaceful victory. Looking at the kinds we have...
Culture Victory: I've never actually pursued a culture victory, but the Grigori never struck me as particularly good civ for it, what with missing all the religious temples and all. Either unique buildings/national wonder to increase culture rate? The Hall of Wonders proposed earlier could tie in: certain items give you certain cultural boosts.
Altar of Lunnotar: I can never remember which mods/versions allow the Lunnotar to build the Altar or not. I think my last game didn't, but I forget whether I was playing the mod or the modmod. With Lunnotar, however, I think it's more than reasonable, considering how far down the research line you have to go. Though for balance you might insist that an increasing number of Lunnotar be sacraficed for each Altar: one for 1, two for 2, to the max of all 4 national units for Altar 4. Then you'd have to use the prophet specialists the Altar enables to get 5 and 6, which would be a great point to use the ardor world spell to pump out the great prophets.
Tower of Mastery: I personally like this one, because it gives a reason to use those Adventurers as you like; you don't have to outright conquer. In fact, it's better to go up the government civic line and get to vassalage, and the government civic line is the Grigori's real line to get their buildings and the best forms of government. Flavorwise, you can always justify a Grigori attempt at the Tower of Mastery as pushing to surpass the magics of the Gods and to reach the pinnacle of human advancement. There isn't much you can do for the Grigori in this victory condition, though, since it's pretty basic (but long) for everyone.
A mid-game mechanic I was musing about earlier today was sort of based on the idea of another leader for the Grigori. At some point in the middle of the game, once the Grigori have gotten to some tech/civic requirement (taxation, at which Republic is open?), the Grigori get the event at the next Adventurer spawn.
"A young man in the Grigori capital is ambitious and capable and increasingly butting heads with state policy, and sending him out into the world might give him good experience and mature him: at the same time, foreign nations are looking at new ways to make stronger ties with us." You're then given a choice: you can either take a standard Grigori hero, or choose to send the would-be adventurer to your neighbor as something of a diplomatic hostage for twenty turns. During those twenty turns, you and the other nation have an unbreakable peace treaty and a diplomatic bonus, with the option of a defensive alliance if your relations are high enough already.
When the 20 turns are up your person returns, matured and affected by his stay with the country he was with: you can choose any one attribute of the civilization he stayed with and he adopts it. When he comes back, older and ready to pick up reigns of power, you have a choice like these:
-Give him a city and see how he develops. Like the Mercurians (or Minister Koun), you can choose a city that will break off and become independent but starts allied to you. This could be useful if you're colonizing different continents.
-Supply and him and send him off: see how he fares. A few units spawn, including a settler, which go out to unsettled area and start the other Grigori civilization which is friendly to his foster-country and neutral to you.
-Accept him into your counsel, and learn from his experiences. The Grigori gain whatever civilization trait from the foster nation you chose. Effectively a mid-game upgrade of the entire civilization.
As far as events go, I'm not sure how hard it would be. The hardest part I would think would be choosing and remembering which of the other player civilizations you sent him to. Trait-adoption might be tricky to check the oponents but should be possible, while the other two options would mainly require variations of the Mercurian and Infernal creation codes (I think).
As overall mechanics, I like the Hall of Wonders, even if it does come close to sounding like the Amurite Trophey Hall from Age of Ice. What's more, I think that the amount of upgrades and boosts should have increasing potential, to make it more and more powerful the further in the game you go. It should push you out to do certain things with your Adventurers, and the Hall of Wonders can offer a vast array of benefits that are slowly unlocked in the game (while many might never be able to be unlocked in any individual game).
People already mentioned items, like Orthus's Axe. But it doesn't have to stop there: why not a boost for Unique Features you clear/control? Clearing the Guardians of the Pass and controlling it, for example, might give your units in the city sentry, like the gargoyles. Controling the Mirror of Heaven might allow seeing invisible units in your territory. Etc..
Or you could get a boost from each for each foreign/religious hero you take down, something like a +1% to your GPP rate per hero defeated, with a special bonus for religious heroes. Conquering giant animals and beasts like Margalard would definitely deserve something. Gaining Brigit would be another.
In short, the Hall gets increasingly powerful the more noteworthy stuff you do: it's not just an artifact warehouse for war trophies, but a history of your civilization's successes. Some games, it could be amazing: you freed Brigit, you tamed dragons, you killed both Basium and Hybordeum (both of which should definitely give nice bonuses, and together should be even better). Other games, you were relegated to a prosperous but small civ on an island, and your Hall of Wonder might only reflect a rich city. It would reflect your game. Items are one aspect, but so are foreign feats, and it fits the idea of the Grigori seeking human advancement, adventure, and pushing the boundaries.
For Cassiel himself, though, they still need a peaceful victory. Looking at the kinds we have...
Culture Victory: I've never actually pursued a culture victory, but the Grigori never struck me as particularly good civ for it, what with missing all the religious temples and all. Either unique buildings/national wonder to increase culture rate? The Hall of Wonders proposed earlier could tie in: certain items give you certain cultural boosts.
Altar of Lunnotar: I can never remember which mods/versions allow the Lunnotar to build the Altar or not. I think my last game didn't, but I forget whether I was playing the mod or the modmod. With Lunnotar, however, I think it's more than reasonable, considering how far down the research line you have to go. Though for balance you might insist that an increasing number of Lunnotar be sacraficed for each Altar: one for 1, two for 2, to the max of all 4 national units for Altar 4. Then you'd have to use the prophet specialists the Altar enables to get 5 and 6, which would be a great point to use the ardor world spell to pump out the great prophets.
Tower of Mastery: I personally like this one, because it gives a reason to use those Adventurers as you like; you don't have to outright conquer. In fact, it's better to go up the government civic line and get to vassalage, and the government civic line is the Grigori's real line to get their buildings and the best forms of government. Flavorwise, you can always justify a Grigori attempt at the Tower of Mastery as pushing to surpass the magics of the Gods and to reach the pinnacle of human advancement. There isn't much you can do for the Grigori in this victory condition, though, since it's pretty basic (but long) for everyone.
A mid-game mechanic I was musing about earlier today was sort of based on the idea of another leader for the Grigori. At some point in the middle of the game, once the Grigori have gotten to some tech/civic requirement (taxation, at which Republic is open?), the Grigori get the event at the next Adventurer spawn.
"A young man in the Grigori capital is ambitious and capable and increasingly butting heads with state policy, and sending him out into the world might give him good experience and mature him: at the same time, foreign nations are looking at new ways to make stronger ties with us." You're then given a choice: you can either take a standard Grigori hero, or choose to send the would-be adventurer to your neighbor as something of a diplomatic hostage for twenty turns. During those twenty turns, you and the other nation have an unbreakable peace treaty and a diplomatic bonus, with the option of a defensive alliance if your relations are high enough already.
When the 20 turns are up your person returns, matured and affected by his stay with the country he was with: you can choose any one attribute of the civilization he stayed with and he adopts it. When he comes back, older and ready to pick up reigns of power, you have a choice like these:
-Give him a city and see how he develops. Like the Mercurians (or Minister Koun), you can choose a city that will break off and become independent but starts allied to you. This could be useful if you're colonizing different continents.
-Supply and him and send him off: see how he fares. A few units spawn, including a settler, which go out to unsettled area and start the other Grigori civilization which is friendly to his foster-country and neutral to you.
-Accept him into your counsel, and learn from his experiences. The Grigori gain whatever civilization trait from the foster nation you chose. Effectively a mid-game upgrade of the entire civilization.
As far as events go, I'm not sure how hard it would be. The hardest part I would think would be choosing and remembering which of the other player civilizations you sent him to. Trait-adoption might be tricky to check the oponents but should be possible, while the other two options would mainly require variations of the Mercurian and Infernal creation codes (I think).
As overall mechanics, I like the Hall of Wonders, even if it does come close to sounding like the Amurite Trophey Hall from Age of Ice. What's more, I think that the amount of upgrades and boosts should have increasing potential, to make it more and more powerful the further in the game you go. It should push you out to do certain things with your Adventurers, and the Hall of Wonders can offer a vast array of benefits that are slowly unlocked in the game (while many might never be able to be unlocked in any individual game).
People already mentioned items, like Orthus's Axe. But it doesn't have to stop there: why not a boost for Unique Features you clear/control? Clearing the Guardians of the Pass and controlling it, for example, might give your units in the city sentry, like the gargoyles. Controling the Mirror of Heaven might allow seeing invisible units in your territory. Etc..
Or you could get a boost from each for each foreign/religious hero you take down, something like a +1% to your GPP rate per hero defeated, with a special bonus for religious heroes. Conquering giant animals and beasts like Margalard would definitely deserve something. Gaining Brigit would be another.
In short, the Hall gets increasingly powerful the more noteworthy stuff you do: it's not just an artifact warehouse for war trophies, but a history of your civilization's successes. Some games, it could be amazing: you freed Brigit, you tamed dragons, you killed both Basium and Hybordeum (both of which should definitely give nice bonuses, and together should be even better). Other games, you were relegated to a prosperous but small civ on an island, and your Hall of Wonder might only reflect a rich city. It would reflect your game. Items are one aspect, but so are foreign feats, and it fits the idea of the Grigori seeking human advancement, adventure, and pushing the boundaries.
![[to_xp]Gekko](https://civfanatics-data.community.forum/avatars/m/74/74677.jpg?1475248346){kind=avatar}
