Gun nuts of CFC, I need your advice!

[Farm Boy]

Unless they are on a bell tower or similar I would be far more concerned about somebody with a shotgun or a semiautomatic pistol than a bolt action rifle having a meltdown. The capacity to inflict harm before the panic sets in is much higher.

 

[Skwink]

I dont think I have ever seen anyone killed by a football (please dont call it soccer).

I'm sure plenty of people have been fatally wounded by a strong hit to the head with a soccer ball.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Just to be a rascal I looked up Ottawa's laws and, yep, it is illegal to discharge a firearm in the populated areas of the city. It was a pretty easy guess because any sizable city is going to have "discharge of firearm" laws which include things like pellet guns.

Only that just applies to pellet guns with a muzzle velocity greater than 152 m/s. Some people simply don't need a high-power weapon to shoot targets.

Seriosuly, Forma, who shoots a pellet gun inside an apartment or even a house for that matter? What do you use as a back stop? Unless you've got a massive apartment and a really, really tolerant landlord and plenty of money to replace windows and drywall damaged by ricochets and aren't afraid of being injured, I would not suggest firing such powerful and dangerous weapons inside a domicile. And yeah it would still illegal because the interior of your apartment is still going to be within city limits.

You mean like this?


Link to video.

And no, it isn't illegal in the least. The ordinances in some cities pertain to shooting pellet guns outdoors.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Note: Since I don't want to clutter up Contre's thread with another text wall, I'll be putting all my off-topic posts in spoilers.

Cheesy:

Spoiler :

And hitl what, two, three people tops?

Exactly. "Spraying" bullets randomly isn't nearly as deadly as actually taking aim. Be it a bolt-action or an automatic rifle. And it's a bit of misnomer because most spree killers don't "spray" randomly. For instance Most people killed in the Columbine High and Virginia Tech massacres were killed while stationary, trying to hide or take cover either because they were unable to escape or where too frightened to move. They were mostly killed by aimed single shots at point blank range. Most of the victims in the Port Author massacre were murdered in a similar manner while trapped in a restaurant. So it really doesn't matter much whether they had to take a fraction of second work a bolt for each shot they fire.

Charles Whitman of course killed 15 people with a 6mm bolt action and a pump-action shotgun. The Cumbria shooter killed 11 with a single-shot shotgun and a bolt action .22 rifle. Some racist skinhead in South Africa used a Lee-Enfield to kill 11 people. The perpetrators of the deadliest killing of police officers in US history used a pump-action shotgun and a pump-action rifle.

Also, you can't conceal a rifle of that size.

Yeah you can, but what difference does it make?

Charles Whitman wrapped his guns in a blanket. Lee Harvey Oswald did a similar thing with his Mannlicher. In a mall (which you mentioned), if anyone asked (and I doubt anyone would) about what you've got wrapped up, a killer could say they're tiki torches that they're returning or whatever. The Columbine killers didn't even try to conceal their weapons. They unloaded their car in the parking lot, walked in and started shooting.

Forma:

Spoiler :

Only that just applies to pellet guns with a muzzle velocity greater than 152 m/s. Some people simply don't need a high-power weapon to shoot targets.

Where does the city law I linked to specify pellets or muzzle velocity?

"firearm" means any class or type of gun or other firearm including a shotgun, rifle, air-gun, spring-gun, long-bow or cross-bow.

You mean like this?

You can build a similar safe backstop using phone books that will reliably stop handgun bullets. Does that mean it's smart or legal to turn my living room firing range?

And no. That little box is NOT a proper backstop. A backstop surrounds a large area behind the target so that loose shots are still safely contained if they miss.

If you sat that little thing up in an apartment and just happened to miss, the pellet would continue on and damage your dry wall or even penetrate it and possibly injure your neighbor or destroy his $2,500 flat screen TV. Hello eviction notice, possible police action/charges and law suit.

I, for example, own a couple of mobile homes and rent one of them out. If renters told me they wanted to build an indoor trailer pellet gun range then I would say absolutely no. For one, it's illegal and two, I don't want them shooting holes in my trailer and contaminating it with lead dust from the pellets.

And no, it isn't illegal in the least. The ordinances in some cities pertain to shooting pellet guns outdoors.

Sure, I believe some city and town lawmakers are stupid enough to make a law that outlaws discharging guns within city limits but somehow allow a loophole when shooting a gun indoors. But no, most firearm discharge laws do not specify indoors or outdoors. City limits means city limits. A city ordinance against keeping dangerous animals doesn't mean you can keep a tiger in your apartment as long as you don't let it outside.

 

[emzie]

The same correlation is true for the US and everywhere else in the world.

It's a stronger correlation than gun ownership alone. The point is that gun violence is a symptom of deeper problems, not the problem itself. If you were to magically import Canada's gun laws into the US and destroy all prohibited guns at the same moment, the murder rate would drop a bit, but not to the much lower levels of Canada.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Anyway, I don't think you mentioned whether you preferred optics or iron sights. Mounting a scope on a 1903 or any old military rifle can be problematic.

So is there anything you're leaning towards in particular now?

 

[emzie]

Optics. The 1903 I shot had a scope on it... I highly doubt I could have hit at that distance with iron sights, even the good sights that came with the 1903. Not a 1-shot-1-hit situation there. That's a pretty good point though. I'll have to call my uncle and ask if he mounted it.

As to what I'd lean towards, if I ran across a 1903 in good condition, on familiarity alone I'd be biased towards that. Given a larger selection, the 1903, Lee-Enfield, and on your recommendation Remington 700 and the m14 -- even though it's not bolt-action. I also asked my grandpa about the M1 Garand, the rifle issued to him in the Marines. He swears is the greatest rifle ever made, though I seem to recall it not being as accurate down range. What do you think?

 

[Borachio]

So, wife consented to me buying a rifle, with a few stipulations: proper storage (trigger lock, ammunition safe) and that I couldn't amass a collection. For now, it's a rifle.

Strange. It's an American thing, right?

This is the best gun you can possibly buy

Spoiler :

.

Yep. Pretty much fail-safe safety. Won't shoot yourself or another with this one. Nice piece of kit.

You can't really go wrong with a 1903 Springfield.

Provided you don't pull the trigger. Or put ammunition in it. Or drop it on your toes.

I've seen the acclaimed documentary Hot Fuzz. I think the culture difference is you living in a city.

Yep. I haven't seen this yet (I don't go to the cinema and like to wait until DVD cheap stage reached - this places me 'behind the curve' and makes me look cheap - in fact I am poor, and preferring it.)

I'm still too scared to go into the countryside after seeing that documentary

Yep. Don't blame you. I am generally in the country. I am very dangerous. Grrrrrr!

Since you need a special gauge to properly measure head space, it would be a little diffiecially .... if the bolt serial# doesn't match the one one on the receiver.

Yep. It's an American thing, alright.


A large KNIFE now (silencer fitted, standard). There's your only man. hehehehehe

 

[Formaldehyde]

You can build a similar safe backstop using phone books that will reliably stop handgun bullets. Does that mean it's smart or legal to turn my living room firing range?

A low-power pellet gun that cannot even break the skin is hardly a "firearm" that requires a firing range.

And no. That little box is NOT a proper backstop. A backstop surrounds a large area behind the target so that loose shots are still safely contained if they miss.

Only if you are an incredibly bad shot. The larger box they sell is large enough to catch anything that might possibly miss unless the shooter is completely incompetent. In that case, you can easily make a canvas or even sheet backdrop that will more than suffice.

Once again, the idea here is to shoot targets and improve your shooting. You can easily do that with a BB gun that is safe enough for a 9-year-old to use in a basement, but I wouldn't want to trust him to do it in an apartment due to all the stuff he might break. But since we are discussing adults who supposedly can be trusted to have reasonably decent judgement, a low-power pellet gun can quite safely be used in most any reasonably sized apartment. You run the same sort of risk playing darts.

 

[emzie]

Yep. It's an American thing, alright.

Yes it's an American thing. It's a cultural quirk. You don't have to get it.

Once again, the idea here is to shoot targets and improve your shooting. You can easily do that with a BB gun that is safe enough for a 9-year-old to use in a basement, but I wouldn't want to trust him to do it in an apartment due to all the stuff he might break. But since we are discussing adults who supposedly can be trusted to have reasonably decent judgement, a low-power pellet gun can quite safely be used in most any reasonably sized apartment. You run the same sort of risk playing darts.

It'd be a hassle in a 1 bed room apartment. Have to keep my cats locked up and the furthest line distance would be with my back to a wall aiming at my door which is... *grabs tape measure* 24 feet. The apartment is a bit wider than that depth, but there's a wall in the way.

edit: actually I can get a 30 foot line shooting into my bathroom. Still, not really what I'm after in targets.

 

[Borachio]

Yes it's an American thing. It's a cultural quirk. You don't have to get it.

rgets.

I would like to get it. But, they are a bit scary. And if it's not for shooting pigeons, etc. i.e. vermin control, I do struggle to understand. I do appreciate a nice bit of engineering, though. And what about the psychological aspects? Are they at all significant?

And yeah, the right to bear arms. I have heard of it. Is it worth it? Perhaps better not to go down this path. I'm not au fait with the arguments to that extent - I expect it's been done to death in the US. Please ignore me. :mutter: :mutter:

 

[Bugfatty300]

What size targets were you shooting by the way.

Keep in mind that an M1903 is a collectable piece of history and permanently "sporterizing" it will harm the value of the rifle. So that should be a factor if you think you'll ever want to sell it.

There are mounts that can be attached with clamps but they're not very cheap and are generally unreliable and loose their zero a lot quicker.

The accuracy of a surplus M1 Garands can be a hit or miss depending on the condition, otherwise they are very accurate for combat rifles. Again the same problems in regard to installing a scope.

Note that the performance of old military surplus rifles are very dependent on the condition of the rifle and sometimes you can get a lemon. So, personally I would go for a new purpose built sporting rifle if I wanted to do some long range shooting (I've rarely shot over 200 yards myself)

 

[Tecknojock]

A firearm, by definition, uses a burning propellant, which pellet guns do not.

A firearm is a weapon that launches one or more projectile(s) at high velocity through confined burning of a propellant.

Now some countries expand this definition to cover pellet guns and I don't know if Canada does, but the US federal government does not. You can find examples, however, of states classifying it on both sides. In Texas, they are not firearms

“Firearm” means any device designed made, or adapted to expel a projectile
through a barrel using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any
device readily convertible to that use

but I believe in California they are.

Like I said, I don't know how it is in Canada, but pellet guns are not necessarily covered under firearms in the legal definition, and are not firearms in the technical definition.

EDIT: Looks like Canada does classify some pellet guns as firearms:

A4. As set out in the Firearms Act, "firearm" means:
Air guns and other barreled weapons designed to have:
These are air guns with both a high muzzle velocity (greater than 152.4 meters or 500 feet per second) and a high muzzle energy (greater than 5.7 joules or 4.2 foot-pounds). The “muzzle velocity” is the speed of a projectile at the instant it leaves the muzzle of a gun, normally expressed in metres per second or feet per second. The “muzzle energy” is the energy of a projectile at the instant it leaves the muzzle of a gun, expressed in joules or foot-pounds. Air guns need to meet both standards to be classified as firearms for purposes of the Firearms Act.

 

[Bugfatty300]

@Tecknojock. The laws in question are written and enforced by local jurisdictions such as counties, cities who often do classify air rifles and crossbows as firearms for the purposes of simplicity. So in this context of those laws they are legally firearms.

Forma:

Spoiler :

A low-power pellet gun that cannot even break the skin is hardly a "firearm" that requires a firing range.

Even lower powered pellet rifles are dangerous. Just like bullets, pellets have a larger diameter than the bore so they'll engage the rifling. Thus a pellet requires considerable psi to clear an 18 inch barrel so at the least you're looking at 300-400 feet per second which is plenty enough to penetrate flesh and muscle (first hand experience), certainly glass and drywall and even kill. Solid lead pellets also generate lead dust which is a health concern if you're in an enclosed area.

Only if you are an incredibly bad shot. The larger box they sell is large enough to catch anything that might possibly miss unless the shooter is completely incompetent.

Which some people are. Ever seen a gun range with bullet holes in the ceiling, floor, etc? I have. Seeing how incompetent and careless some people can be with weapons I wouldn't feel comfortable knowing the guys in next apartment have set up a shooting range, even if the guns they're shooting aren't as powerful as firearms. Landlord and police would get a call ASAP. If the same guys had their own house somewhere? Go for it. To each his own I suppose.

Once again, the idea here is to shoot targets and improve your shooting.

Then go shoot at a safe and legal place to do it, buy Duck Hunt or buy an airsoft gun. Don't shoot dangerous weapons inside an apartment complex. I'd think that would be common sense.

 

[Skwink]

I would like to get it. But, they are a bit scary. And if it's not for shooting pigeons, etc. i.e. vermin control, I do struggle to understand. I do appreciate a nice bit of engineering, though. And what about the psychological aspects? Are they at all significant?

And yeah, the right to bear arms. I have heard of it. Is it worth it? Perhaps better not to go down this path. I'm not au fait with the arguments to that extent - I expect it's been done to death in the US. Please ignore me. :mutter: :mutter:

We just like guns.

 

[emzie]

We just like guns.

I think it's a bit deeper than that. I like cats but I don't consider a cat to be part of my makeup. I like cars, but again, I don't consider that to be part of my makeup. Guns, on the other hand, are a defining bit of my culture and the ability to use them well, and use them safely, is like a right of passage. Refining my ability to shoot is like chipping at flint until you have a good axe. And the odd bit is that I'm not even a gun fanatic. You won't see me in pictures posing with a rifle or see me unload an AK47 with the glee of a child on his first roller coaster. No, it's more like meditation. The process of refining my ability to use this tool makes me feel connected to my past.

This must sound so strange to some people.

 

[say1988]

Just wanted to say, if your reason for wanting to shoot at 500+ feet is the challenge ruling out smaller rifles, would they not present a similar challenge at a somewher shorter range?

I dont think I have ever seen anyone killed by a football (please dont call it soccer).

Using traditional British terms for a sport, blasphemy. Especially when it has the side benefit of being unambiguous.

 

[G-Max]

But Canada is a democratic republic. Why don't the people just vote themselves the right to bear arms?

Elizabeth II won't let them.

Oh, I guess they're not as much of a democratic republic as you thought.

I would like to get it. But, they are a bit scary. And if it's not for shooting pigeons, etc. i.e. vermin control, I do struggle to understand. I do appreciate a nice bit of engineering, though. And what about the psychological aspects? Are they at all significant?

And yeah, the right to bear arms. I have heard of it. Is it worth it? Perhaps better not to go down this path. I'm not au fait with the arguments to that extent - I expect it's been done to death in the US. Please ignore me. :mutter: :mutter:

There's a proven cause-effect relationship between stricter gun laws and higher violent crime rates. Also, you can never be too prepared for the zombie apocalypse.

 

[emzie]

There's a proven cause-effect relationship between stricter gun laws and higher violent crime rates. Also, you can never be too prepared for the zombie apocalypse.

Citation, please.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Then go shoot at a safe and legal place to do it, buy Duck Hunt or buy an airsoft gun. Don't shoot dangerous weapons inside an apartment complex. I'd think that would be common sense.

Only a low-powered BB or pellet gun that isn't a "firearm" in Canada, or just about anyplace else, and which cannot even break the skin is obviously not a "dangerous weapon". That is, any more than a dart or kitchen knife are, both of which are typically used indoors without special ranges. That is specifically why numerous reputable companies provide indoor targets such as the one I posted above.

You are clearly discussing high-powered pellet guns while I am not.


Link to video.


Link to video.