Gun Ownership as an Honor

[Formaldehyde]

As Bugfatty already pointed out, the rules of gun safety are quite simple. They can be taught in an hour or less. Yet they are completely ignored by many who have heard them innumerable times. Even the Vice President of the United States was stupid enough to point a shotgun in the general direction of someone else and nearly killed him.

The same holds for properly securing the weapons in the home. Yet even toddlers get hold of them and kill someone once a week in this country.

The real problem is the gun culture. BvBPL is discussing supplanting it with a different form that would also adore and venerate the holy .44 Magnum. But this new religion would supposedly be quite different from the old one. The problem isn't in the details of the religion. It is that it is a religion in the first place. That many of these people actually believe they will need these vast arsenals to either overthrow the government or to put down the inevitable race war. This is their own religion of hate and paranoia.

Again, the only real solution is far better education. Most of the people in the US simply cannot think critically. Until they do, they will continue to let special interest groups like the NRA dominate politics and the laws of this country.

 

[Samson]

That many of these people actually believe they will need these vast arsenals to either overthrow the government or to put down the inevitable race war. This is their own religion of hate and paranoia.

The only real solution is again far better education. Most of the people in the US simply cannot think critically.

How does education stop people believing in the government coming for them or the race war is inevitable? It is not that hard to read history to say that the government will turn on the people eventually.

 

[Formaldehyde]

That's funny. I didn't get that at all from my own education.

Progress towards democracy, freedom, and liberty continue to occur on a global basis. Dictatorships are disappearing. World wars seem to finally be things of the past.

There is only one country which continues to practice worldwide imperialism and hegemony under the guise of being the world's police, and that charade likely won't fool anybody much longer. It won't be long before the rest of the world demands international consensus before attacking another country.

I think it speaks volumes that anybody actually still gives any credence at all to the excuse that the Second Amendment is the only thing stopping the US government from becoming tyrannical, much less that the blacks will finally decide they have had enough now that great progress is finally being made in that regard.

 

[Samson]

That's funny. I didn't get that at all from my own education.

Progress towards democracy, freedom, and liberty continue to occur on a global basis. Dictatorships are disappearing. World wars seem to finally be things of the past.

There is only one country which continues to practice worldwide imperialism and hegemony under the guise of being the world's police, and that charade likely won't fool anybody much longer. It won't be long before the rest of the world demands international consensus before attacking another country.

I think it speaks volumes that anybody actually still gives any credence at all to the excuse that the Second Amendment is the only thing stopping the US government from becoming tyrannical, much less that the blacks will finally decide they have had enough now that great progress is finally being made in that regard.

Neither did I get that from my education, but then we did not start from the belief that the government / blacks are out to get us. It is very hard to use an honest account of history to dissuade people that these things (government suppression of the population and racial violence) will occur, because they have occurred many times.

 

[Formaldehyde]

That is exactly why we study history so we don't have to repeat the mistakes of the past.

But the light bulb does have to want to change.

 

[BvBPL]

The sort of hardline stance that Forma talks about probably does represent many gun owners but I doubt it represents all of them if even a majority if them. The idea here is to change from a veneration of guns to making the requirements for guns demonstrative of good character. In other words to change the debate from being about guns to the people who use them. I think that's possible even accounting for foaming at the mouth gun nuts.

 

[warpus]

Until the culture changes from "Gun ownership is a right" to "Gun ownership is a privilege" nothing is going to change.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

That's funny. I didn't get that at all from my own education.

Progress towards democracy, freedom, and liberty continue to occur on a global basis. Dictatorships are disappearing.

Mostly on the backs of bloody revolutions fought against... wait for it... tyrannical governments. Maybe you slept through that part of history class?

 

[Formaldehyde]

The sort of hardline stance that Forma talks about probably does represent many gun owners but I doubt it represents all of them if even a majority if them. The idea here is to change from a veneration of guns to making the requirements for guns demonstrative of good character. In other words to change the debate from being about guns to the people who use them. I think that's possible even accounting for foaming at the mouth gun nuts.

The problem isn't with the vast majority of already responsible gun owners who properly secure their firearms. Those who have quite legitimate reasons to own them, specifically hunting, target shooting, and even home defense if they actually live in a really bad neighborhood (and which is simply not true for most who claim this as an excuse).

The problem is with those who allow even toddlers to gain access to them. Those who are known to have violence issues with neighbors and their own family. Those who buy and sell unregistered guns specifically so the government can't track them. And worst of all, those who continue to stymie rational gun control laws from being enacted which will make everybody far safer than they now are from gun violence.

Mostly on the backs of bloody revolutions fought against... wait for it... tyrannical governments. Maybe you slept through that part of history class?

When was the last time that occurred in an advanced country? How do you think it could possibly occur in the US, and why you think having small arms is going to be any sort of threat to the current military if they do decide to overthrow the government?

Again, I think it is clear you are supposed to learn what not to do from studying history instead of incessantly repeating the mistakes. YMMV.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

I agree that the study of history should teach us what not to do. The difference we appear to have is that we took different lessons from that. You appear to think that what history teaches us is not to use violence to overcome tyranny. Whereas I think that the lesson is that we shouldn't give governments too much power in the first place, as that series of events has historically always led to tyranny, a lesson that America has been forgetting for the last century or so.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Yes, I clearly said or insinuated that violence shouldn't ever be used to overcome tyranny.

Are you suggesting that the power of the current US military is the real problem here? That no government should be allowed to spend so much developing their military? That the world would be even far safer if no country could engage in imperialism and hegemony on a world-wide scale any longer?

If so, I would completely agree with all that. But I hardly think it means the next inevitable step is for the US to become a dictatorship, much less that people owning a few firearms is going to stop it.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

I'm not talking about military power as much as power over civilians. Power like telling adults what they can and cannot do to their own body (the war on drugs). Power like telling consenting individuals which parts of themselves they can legally rent to others (getting paid for testing an experimental drug? No problem! Prostitution? Hell no, that's immoral!). Power like spying on people's private communications (the NSA). Power like forcibly taking people's wealth through taxes and redistributing it to people who have not earned it (welfare, foreign aid, economic bail outs, etc.). Whether anyone personally believes that all of these things are right or wrong is irrelevant to my point, what is relevant is that all of them represent the government having power over us, over you and me, and the more such power a government is given, the more likely it becomes that they will abuse that power at some point. An armed populace is crucial to prevent or at least slow this, because even if no revolution ever comes, the threat that it possibly could is enough to act as a deterrent towards the worst governmental abuses.

 

[Formaldehyde]

You don't have to tell me how antithetical to American tenets the authoritarian conservative platform is. But I hardly think violence is going to eventually be necessary to resolve this conflict with our basic ideals.

In fact, in case you didn't notice, it is they who are the typical gun nuts who think they will eventually have to overthrow the inevitable libertarian/socialist government that so threatens their "freedom" to inflict Christian sharia law on the rest of us.

It is they who have come up with the preposterous excuse to be able to legally execute people they merely think might try to physically harm them wherever they happen to be with their concealed carry weapons, instead of first at least making a pretense of retreating.

 

[Tahuti]

Until the culture changes from "Gun ownership is a right" to "Gun ownership is a privilege" nothing is going to change.

As a non-American, I'm inclined to view America's gun culture as part of American culture in general. If I decide to move to the US, I accept relatively libertarian gun laws as part of the deal. However, doesn't have Canada gun laws similar to the US, except that people make less use of it?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Take a look at these statistics. The vast majority of gun violence is a suicide or directed towards a spouse, family member, close friend, or neighbor. Random killings by deranged teens with assault weapons is an extremely rare event. So are killings and shootings which occurred during the commission of some other crime. Nearly 10% of the deaths are children and teens and 20% of those shot and survive are in that age group.

Every Day on Average (ages 0-19)

Every day, 48 children and teens are shot in murders, assaults, suicides & suicide attempts, unintentional shootings, and police intervention.

Every day, 7 children and teens die from gun violence:

5 are murdered
2 kill themselves.

Every day, 41 children and teens are shot and survive:

31 shot in an assault
1 survives a suicide attempt
8 are shot unintentionally

Every Day on Average (all ages)

Every day, 297 people in America are shot in murders, assaults, suicides & suicide attempts, unintentional shootings, and police intervention.

Every day, 89 people die from gun violence:

31 are murdered
55 kill themselves
2 are killed unintentionally
1 is killed by police intervention
1 intent unknown.

Every day, 208 people are shot and survive:

151 shot in an assault
10 survive a suicide attempt
45 are shot unintentionally
2 are shot in a police intervention

This is all due to the gun culture in the US where we have vastly more firearms than any other country.

If you draw a line between the origin of this graph and the US, Canada has the same sort of pattern, only the number of deaths is proportionately lower because they don't have near as many guns per 100 people. Interestingly, they are actually a bit higher than the US in terms of deaths vs. guns per 100 people. The Netherlands is almost right on that line, as are most other Western European countries.

Cyprus seems to be the best place to be if you love guns but don't want to get shot or killed by one:

 

[Tahuti]

Take a look at these statistics. The vast majority of gun violence is a suicide or directed towards a spouse, family member, close friend, or neighbor. Random killings by deranged teens with assault weapons is an extremely rare event. So are killings and shootings which occurred during the commission of some other crime. Nearly 10% of the deaths are children and teens and 20% of those shot and survive are in that age group.

This is all due to the gun culture in the US where we have vastly more firearms than any other country.

I see. However, I do dispute the last sentence. Mental health issues may be just as much to blame as firearms, if not more so.

 

[Flying Pig]

As Bugfatty already pointed out, the rules of gun safety are quite simple. They can be taught in an hour or less. Yet they are completely ignored by many who have heard them innumerable times. Even the Vice President of the United States was stupid enough to point a shotgun in the general direction of someone else and nearly killed him.

The same holds for properly securing the weapons in the home. Yet even toddlers get hold of them and kill someone once a week in this country.

The real problem is the gun culture. BvBPL is discussing supplanting it with a different form that would also adore and venerate the holy .44 Magnum. But this new religion would supposedly be quite different from the old one. The problem isn't in the details of the religion. It is that it is a religion in the first place. That many of these people actually believe they will need these vast arsenals to either overthrow the government or to put down the inevitable race war. This is their own religion of hate and paranoia.

Again, the only real solution is far better education. Most of the people in the US simply cannot think critically. Until they do, they will continue to let special interest groups like the NRA dominate politics and the laws of this country.

I'm suggesting that the sort of culture that you get in an organised shooting sports team, with an accredited coach, a health and safety policy, and all the rest, is much healthier than the sort of culture you can get when friends and family members take each other along to the range to have a bit of fun.

I see. However, I do dispute the last sentence. Mental health issues may be just as much to blame as firearms, if not more so.

Then it becomes a matter of a healthier culture towards both mental health issues and firearms. As long as people will see giving their rifle to somebody else to look after being diagnosed with (eg.) depression as a sign of weakness, or something which puts them in danger, the culture is there that leads to tragedies.

 

[Samson]

When was the last time that occurred in an advanced country? How do you think it could possibly occur in the US, and why you think having small arms is going to be any sort of threat to the current military if they do decide to overthrow the government?

Syria? Or is that not advanced enough for you? The events in various countries in that general area in recent years have shown the power of a committed citizenry with access to small arms against a government with an airforce.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I see. However, I do dispute the last sentence. Mental health issues may be just as much to blame as firearms, if not more so.

So you think the US suffers from far more mental health problems than any other country? If so, source?

I'm suggesting that the sort of culture that you get in an organised shooting sports team, with an accredited coach, a health and safety policy, and all the rest, is much healthier than the sort of culture you can get when friends and family members take each other along to the range to have a bit of fun.

That is probably so. But I still think that these should be adult sports.

We now live in a culture where kids can no longer play soldier or cowboys and Indians, but we are trying to push kids into shooting sports because attendance is declining at expensive skeet ranges in the Midwest.

Syria? Or is that not advanced enough for you? The events in various countries in that general area in recent years have shown the power of a committed citizenry with access to small arms against a government with an airforce.

That is specifically why I used the word "advanced".

The Syrian air force wasn't used at all initially, and was then used quite sparingly until recently when they started losing ground. But it is outdated. They don't have any precision or standoff weapons, and much of their air force is geared for air defense.

A large portion of the ground attack aircraft have also already been destroyed thanks to advanced weapons given to the rebels and the manner which they use to attack given their limited offensive capabilities. Turkey has even shot down 2 planes making attacks on the al-Qaida and Israel shot down 1.

 

[bhavv]

I disagree with this in order to play devils advocate.

Gun ownership should not become a reward for passing such tests ... Rather everything else should also become a right without needing tests or licenses.

It should become a right for anyone to own and use a car, even without any practice or training. Or a motorcycle. Or a nuclear bomb.

All things that are made should be equally right for all humans to purchase and use if they can afford and feel like taking the risk to do so ... Especially the part about my rights to bear and own nuclear arms, please