Gwennog's France - Philippe II Auguste for Vox Populi

[SwirlSlayer]

Spoiler :

Okay, I have completed my long-delayed attempt with pre-nerf France (insofar as I could, due to a bug), and have the following to show for it (on Epic speed and King difficulty):

In early Renaissance, I had a 27% bonus from the trait:View attachment 697492
80 turns later, I was up to 52% in early Industrial:
View attachment 697493

Unfortunately I wasn't able to take it to Modern as I'd hoped, because the turn I finished the Rationalism tree, specifically Hokath's tweaked version, my science income totally broke--for some weird reason all of my cities' science income jumped to more than 500k, then when I reloaded to see if it would improve it instead dropped deep into the negatives. Could be the fault of a number of things; I'm running a couple sub-versions behind the most recent CBP patch so it might be a bug that's since been patched, I'm running the aforementioned Tweaks mod from Hokath, and I have a UCS bonus that provides a small amount of science on policy adoption (though I've had the latter for practically the whole game, so I don't think that's at fault).View attachment 697494

I think Hokath said there was a game-breaking bug with Rationalism, which he then provided a fix for. Have you tried downloading his most recent version of tweaks and loading a save from before the science bug?

 

[gwennog]

Thanks for your report, effectively it’s way too much.
With the limitation of v.2, it's much more balanced .

Okay, I have completed my long-delayed attempt with pre-nerf France (insofar as I could, due to a bug), and have the following to show for it (on Epic speed and King difficulty):

In early Renaissance, I had a 27% bonus from the trait:

80 turns later, I was up to 52% in early Industrial:

Thanks for your report, effectively it’s way too much.
With the limitation of v.2, it's much more balanced .
I've played four games since, standard Emperor, lost two and won two (well I didn't push beyond the modern era but it seemed really well underway).

Another small bug to correct, I forgot the tenet bonuses on the Château, and I am working on changing the Salon to Grande Ecole, a building which replaces the Public School and will give the choice to 6 exclusive specializations with the help of @Hinin .

 

[gwennog]

v.4 online:

• I had forgotten the tenet bonuses for the Château, this is corrected.

Save compatible if you haven't yet taken one of the tenet bonus (Five Plans,...)

 

[Urzamax]

I think Hokath said there was a game-breaking bug with Rationalism, which he then provided a fix for. Have you tried downloading his most recent version of tweaks and loading a save from before the science bug?

Ah, I wasn't aware it had already been updated. Great!

 

[KlHannibal2]

Wondering how this civ would play out in a domination game. The 1% yield bonus from GP birth in all cities is permanent, correct? And does it apply to cities that you gain after the GP birth?

 

[gwennog]

Wondering how this civ would play out in a domination game.

I admit that I almost never play military but I think I still designed it to have this option.
It is certainly not an early warmonger but during the Middle Ages and Renaissance at least, when the Chevaliers and then the Canons Gribeauval arrive, supplemented by a regular appearance of GPs, the offensive power is clearly present.

The 1% yield bonus from GP birth in all cities is permanent, correct? And does it apply to cities that you gain after the GP birth?

Yes and yes. The bonus is given to the Capital but as a global bonus for all cities.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Finally had a chance to try this mod. All attempts for a peaceful tradition game were punished by a warmonger neighbor. So I decided to forget about maxing great people for now. Instead, I went progress to get to knights ASAP. And these knights are a powerhouse indeed. You can aim for several GP births in early medieval to back them up with the UA promotion. With their combat aura, the UA promotion and a general, they ate mongol Black Tugs for breakfast. Chateaus plus forts and citadels allow for a great defense. Thanks to great generals II promotion, you can also use those offensively, citadelling into enemy territory. Did not get to try the cannons, but they look promising too.

On the other hand, this does not feel unbalanced. You play as a vanilla civ until medieval and will be even further behind AIs than usual. It can be a stretch to make it to medieval.

Music and art are top notch, especially the Chevalier icon.

Would you consider making the Chevalier combat aura permanent? Having that together with Montjoie Saint Denise! is such a good combo. I like that jousting is lost on promotion. Makes for an interesting decision to keep knights un-upgraded.

 

[gwennog]

Hi @KlHannibal2 ,

Always very happy to read your feedback and I thank you very much for your loyalty in testing my mods.
You confirm my impression of the military awakening of this France at the entrance into the Middle Ages. I had been able to test it in particular against neighboring Songhai which had taken too long to declare war on me . Same thing as you with the Mongols, the French Chivalry had crushed the Mandekalu cavalry and the fortification lines (Châteaux, Citadels, forts) are very typical of the French defense against its neighbors even if the Maginot Line did not stop Germany in 1940 .

On the other hand, this does not feel unbalanced. You play as a vanilla civ until medieval and will be even further behind AIs than usual. It can be a stretch to make it to medieval.

I think the 1% bonus limited to 5xEra is perhaps still a bit strong. This is also what makes the civ not quite vanilla until the entry into the Middle Ages. Maybe 4xEra but I need to test more by putting France in AI and playing against. And then if I change the Salon for another building, probably Grandes Ecoles, as @Hinin suggested, I might as well not touch the rest for the moment.

Music and art are top notch, especially the Chevalier icon.

Thanks a lot, I try to pay really attention to that and Hinin helped me a lot with the musical choices and the icon of Philippe Auguste that I have been waiting for a few years to make this mod (not having found an acceptable base on the net).

Would you consider making the Chevalier combat aura permanent? Having that together with Montjour Saint Denise! is such a good combo. I like that jousting is lost on promotion. Makes for an interesting decision to keep knights un-upgraded.

The Ost is really linked to the Middle Ages, you can keep it with a few old non-upgraded Chevaliers, like an outdated survival of the past, very typical of a certain approach to French warfare (I was talking about the Maginot Line above ) but the General II promotion is there to compensate for the disappearance of the Ost and replace the valiant ones with Generals of Cavalry or armored regiments such as Charles Comte de Lasalle or Charles de Gaulle.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Hi @KlHannibal2 ,

Always very happy to read your feedback and I thank you very much for your loyalty in testing my mods.
You confirm my impression of the military awakening of this France at the entrance into the Middle Ages. I had been able to test it in particular against neighboring Songhai which had taken too long to declare war on me . Same thing as you with the Mongols, the French Chivalry had crushed the Mandekalu cavalry and the fortification lines (Châteaux, Citadels, forts) are very typical of the French defense against its neighbors even if the Maginot Line did not stop Germany in 1940 .


I think the 1% bonus limited to 5xEra is perhaps still a bit strong. This is also what makes the civ not quite vanilla until the entry into the Middle Ages. Maybe 4xEra but I need to test more by putting France in AI and playing against. And then if I change the Salon for another building, probably Grandes Ecoles, as @Hinin suggested, I might as well not touch the rest for the moment.

Thanks a lot, I try to pay really attention to that and Hinin helped me a lot with the musical choices and the icon of Philippe Auguste that I have been waiting for a few years to make this mod (not having found an acceptable base on the net).

The Ost is really linked to the Middle Ages, you can keep it with a few old non-upgraded Chevaliers, like an outdated survival of the past, very typical of a certain approach to French warfare (I was talking about the Maginot Line above ) but the General II promotion is there to compensate for the disappearance of the Ost and replace the valiant ones with Generals of Cavalry or armored regiments such as Charles Comte de Lasalle or Charles de Gaulle.

Always a pleasure.

Btw, where exactly do the GPP of Chateaus and GPTIs go? Always to the city that works them, or controls them, or the nearest city? Just to optimise the micro of where to put them.

 

[gwennog]

Btw, where exactly do the GPP of Chateaus and GPTIs go? Always to the city that works them, or controls them, or the nearest city? Just to optimise the micro of where to put them.

Always the city that works them except for Ambassy, the nearest city.

 

[Urzamax]

Always the city that works them except for Ambassy, the nearest city.

It would be kind of nice if the Embassy sent its points to the capital, given that you'll usually build your Diplomatic UNWs there. Might be a bit OP and snowball-y to centralise it like that though, to be fair.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Always the city that works them except for Ambassy, the nearest city.

Nice, even embassies give the bonus.

 

[KlHannibal2]

It would be kind of nice if the Embassy sent its points to the capital, given that you'll usually build your Diplomatic UNWs there. Might be a bit OP and snowball-y to centralise it like that though, to be fair.

It really depends. If you paly tradition, you will probably want all bonus points in the capital. If not tradition, you might specialise cities for certain types of great people. You could run diplomats in a city close to many city states where you can put your embassies.

 

[Urzamax]

It really depends. If you paly tradition, you will probably want all bonus points in the capital. If not tradition, you might specialise cities for certain types of great people. You could run diplomats in a city close to many city states where you can put your embassies.

True, that's very possible. Makes it easier for you to mess with a rival France too since you can grab embassies near their most likely diplomat city and stop them from acquiring the bonus in that city, and that kind of mild counterplay can be worth encouraging.

 

[gwennog]

It would be kind of nice if the Embassy sent its points to the capital, given that you'll usually build your Diplomatic UNWs there. Might be a bit OP and snowball-y to centralise it like that though, to be fair.

t really depends. If you paly tradition, you will probably want all bonus points in the capital. If not tradition, you might specialise cities for certain types of great people. You could run diplomats in a city close to many city states where you can put your embassies.

True, that's very possible. Makes it easier for you to mess with a rival France too since you can grab embassies near their most likely diplomat city and stop them from acquiring the bonus in that city, and that kind of mild counterplay can be worth encouraging.

Yes, personally I rarely build the Scrivener's Office in the Capital, I prefer to specialize a city closer to the CS.

 

[gwennog]

v.5 online:

During a meeting with Philippe Auguste, the display was not correct (DOM instead of Leaderscene), fixed

 

[H0dgvikin]

Given your France a go—very fun to play, even if it feels a bit overtuned. As it is, it feels pretty much a ticking bomb like Austria but worse—it'll dominate the game as long as it survives to mid-game.

In theory, the UA is a reward for a great-person focused gameplay. In practice, I feel like I'm hitting the cap by mid-game. My game (emperor, 12 civs, standard speed) is admittedly pretty lucky since i have friendly neighbors and the space to eventually expand to 10 cities. Still, by the time I reach renaissance, I have 20% /// in every city. For reference, my tradition/artistry/rationalism play has more production than a 12 city authority/fealty/imperialism songhai (who admittedly is quite a few policies behind me). And it only gets even strong as the game progresses. Even with the cap in place it still feels France will dominate the mid to late game.

The new chateaus are a nice spin with its evolving animation. I don't know how to feel about its power level though. On one hand, it's quite difficult to build on average due to adjacency requirement (I end up building 2-3 chateaus in a city in average), but on the other hand, an individual chateau feels way stronger than a typical UI. For reference, your chateau gives:


+1 //
1 Great Person Points (GPP) towards a Great Writer, a Great Artist and a Great Musician.
+1 // at Chivalry
+1 // at Printing Press
+1 // at Railroad
+1 // at Flight

For comparison, this is the yield of original chateau:

+2 /+3/+3
+1 at Printing Press
+2 / at Flight

and Morocco's Kasbah:
+2 ///+1
+1 at Radio
+1 / at Architecture

I'm not sure how much to value a GPP, but even at Chivalry Philippe's chateau is comparable to a Moroccan Kasbah and probably comparable to Napoleon's chateau, and it gets even stronger later with the buffs in 3 different technologies. With how strong the UA is, it can probably use some nerf. At minimum, it can lose the tourism to keep it in line with Napoleon's chateau (it gets the tourism from hotels and other buildings anyway)

Nothing much to say about the UUs. The chevaliers are fun. The joutes are less broken than I thought because by medieval or renaissance I'm either fighting offensively (it's a powerful UU) or having other civs declare war on me anyway, but it's a nice favor. I did end up having a couple highly promoted cavs into landships and tanks. Can't say much about the Canon Gribeauval because I didn't use it this much in my game, but a march cannon with conditional extra power feels good nonetheless.

All in all, nice experience, but I suspect it can use a nerf hammer to make it more balanced in the hands of an AI.

 

[gwennog]

Given your France a go—very fun to play, even if it feels a bit overtuned. As it is, it feels pretty much a ticking bomb like Austria but worse—it'll dominate the game as long as it survives to mid-game.

Thank you very much for your feedback, it's precious.
Indeed the cap is necessary because it is reached anyway at each age from the renaissance. Maybe it is a bit strong but I still had contrasting games and after a lot of game between AI France, it doesn't always do well. In fact it depends a lot on her neighbors but ultimately it's a bit the conclusion for all civs .
I'm thinking about possibly giving a specific 1% of the GP type instead of the current system but that would require detailing the UA and for once I had a simple and readable mechanism .

For the Château, you are right, I hesitate to either remove a technological level (Railroad) or actually remove tourism.

Nothing much to say about the UUs. The chevaliers are fun. The joutes are less broken than I thought because by medieval or renaissance I'm either fighting offensively (it's a powerful UU) or having other civs declare war on me anyway, but it's a nice favor. I did end up having a couple highly promoted cavs into landships and tanks.

Yes, I have noticed that too, ultimately war periods are frequent enough to limit the gain. Eventually, as @Remito suggested, I could stop the gain in the industrial era.

All in all, nice experience, but I suspect it can use a nerf hammer to make it more balanced in the hands of an AI.

After about ten games against it, it's rather a civ that places itself well but not every time, it plays progress a little too often in my tests which means that I haven't seen it often enough in tradition to know if it "takes off" in this case.
Anyway, I'm glad you had fun. I'll take your comments into account.

 

[H0dgvikin]

Thank you very much for your feedback, it's precious.
Indeed the cap is necessary because it is reached anyway at each age from the renaissance. Maybe it is a bit strong but I still had contrasting games and after a lot of game between AI France, it doesn't always do well. In fact it depends a lot on her neighbors but ultimately it's a bit the conclusion for all civs .
I'm thinking about possibly giving a specific 1% of the GP type instead of the current system but that would require detailing the UA and for once I had a simple and readable mechanism .

For the Château, you are right, I hesitate to either remove a technological level (Railroad) or actually remove tourism.


Yes, I have noticed that too, ultimately war periods are frequent enough to limit the gain. Eventually, as @Remito suggested, I could stop the gain in the industrial era.

After about ten games against it, it's rather a civ that places itself well but not every time, it plays progress a little too often in my tests which means that I haven't seen it often enough in tradition to know if it "takes off" in this case.
Anyway, I'm glad you had fun. I'll take your comments into account.

Maybe instead of capping the yield from the UA by era, you instead put a hard cap of say 20% (think Greece's UA cap on its combat bonus)? What I suspect is that late game France can get a lot of yield—might be comparable to Korea's science gains, but on 4 yields! But if your AI games seem fine, then it probably is less big a deal than I thought.

Also, I know the pain of AI civs and their policy selections (looking at you, Progress Arabia). I think everyone would agree the AI needs an overhaul on this.

 

[gwennog]

Maybe instead of capping the yield from the UA by era, you instead put a hard cap of say 20% (think Greece's UA cap on its combat bonus)? What I suspect is that late game France can get a lot of yield—might be comparable to Korea's science gains, but on 4 yields! But if your AI games seem fine, then it probably is less big a deal than I thought.

I think 20% is a bit short and I like the progressiveness but I keep the idea in mind and the comparison you make with Greece and Korea.
I'm currently playing a game in Emperor with the Tehuelches (Progress/Fealty/Rationalism) against France, I'm 3rd, France is second (Progress/Fealty/Rationalism) and the Maya (Tradition/Fealty/Rationalism) are first.
France has no enemies that could hinder its development and despite this, in the industrial era, it is unable to catch up with the Maya. The two civ have same number of policies, France has two less technologies. At industrial era a château in grassland/river gives 4/2/4/2/2 and a Kuna in grassland/forest 2/2/7/1/2/1 and for the two improvements, It lacks the Flight bonus which is 2 points for the Kuna and 3 for the Château.
I'll continue the game anyway and see if the gap widens.