Halabja - Kurdish Gassing

[The Last Conformist]

1. I provided the defintion by international law, which clearly is the relevant one, since you've been bringing up the question whether he could be tried for genocide.

2. It's genocide when done under the circumstances Saddam did.

Now, if you want to argue that Saddam was justified in commiting genocide you might have a case, but for now you're just refusing to admit defeat despite having been proven wrong repeatedly.

 

[~Corsair#01~]

*sigh* Tassadar, Saddam deliberately murdered millions of innocent people. I fail to see how whether you define this as genocide or not is remotely relevant. You are debating trivialities, wasting time and just generally being irritating.

To resolve the issue:

following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

He killed a large part of the group deliberately- whether he did this as a prelude to "dominating them" or not does not change the fact he committed genocide, as defined by this article.

 

[Kafka2]

Tassadar- what do you think about the Ba'athist regime's mass murders of hundreds of thousands of civilians (involving use of chemical weapons) due to their ethnic groupings?

 

[Kafka2]

2.-Destroying a town is not an intent to destroy an ethnic,national, or religious group.

How about destroying 37 towns, causing the violent displacement of two-thirds of the ethnic group in question?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

@DP: I'm afraid I'm not able to appreciate humour in this thread right now.

Ok (sighs and puts away the spraybottle of seltzer water and the lemon merangue pie).

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

So it's not an accident. You're deliberately dropping bombs knowing that civilians will be killed. America rationalises it by saying it's worth it to kill the insurgents.

No, your dropping bombs on insurgents, but keep in mind that the insurgents purposely hang out with civilians...the alternative would be to do nothing...

 

[The Last Conformist]

And that refutes what zulu said how?

 

[zulu9812]

No, your dropping bombs on insurgents, but keep in mind that the insurgents purposely hang out with civilians...the alternative would be to do nothing...

So you are dropping bombs knowing that they will kill innocent people. Are you saying that civilian deaths are necessary in order to attack the partisans?

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

No, am just saying thats whats going on over there. During Operation Desert Fox in 1998, Saddam ordered Iraqi civilians to stand or sit around locations where he had weapon stockpiles or military bases. Its the old "human shield" tactic.

Personally, I think the US should just pump that entire city with sleeping gas, and then sort out the insurgeants and civilians, and lock up the insurgeants, problem solved.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Najaf? I was of the impression things had calmed down there now ...

(You're aware that spraying an entire city with sleeping gas is practically guaranteed to kill a bunch of people, are you?)

 

[Tassadar]

Here an expert opinion,

Thus, using the definitions of both Lemkin and the Convention, and placing them within the context of the larger category of crime against humanity in general, there have really only been three genuine examples of genocide during the course of the twentieth century: that of the Armenians by the Young Turks in 1915, that of the Jews and Gypsies by the Nazis and, in 1994, that of the Tutsis by the Hutu racists.

Link:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rwanda/reports/dsetexhe.html

The expert is, Alain Destexhe is the former Secretary General of Doctors Without Borders.

I dont think i need to post again in this thread, i am a ''fool irritating liar'' after all, according to you. I prefer to stay with higher intelect stance/analysis like this doctor, then beeing insulted by brainwashed member.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Ummm.....Slobadon Milosevich.....ETHNIC ALBANIANS!!!

Ummm.....Saddam Hussein.....MARSH ARABS!!!

Ummm.....Sudanese Government.....NUBIANS!!!

Need I say more?

 

[The Last Conformist]

I've not got the time to look at that right now, but I'm gonna be somewhat suspicious against someone for whom the intentional wiping out of 75% of an entire people does not count as genocide.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Sleeping Gas can kill people? So much for my master plan.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Sleeping Gas can kill people? So much for my master plan.

Yes.

The most infamous incident in recent times will have been when Russian special forces stormed that theatre in Moscow after release a "knock-out" gas in the ventilation system; of about 700 hostages, about a hundred died of the gas.

The percental death toll would be smaller if the same gas was used outdoors, and there are safer agents, but if we're gonna put an entire city to sleep, the the total death toll is not gonna be neglible. In addition, you can't realistically expect to get everyone down*, so going in and mopping up isn't gonna be risk free either.

* Unless you douse the place in absurd amouns of the stuff, but in that case you might just as well drench it in napalm as far as the death toll is concerned.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

I have an idea! Have an all-you-can-eat buffet of Mcdonalds food! The insurgeants will stuff themselves and will become too lazy to continue fighting....

A more realistic idea would be to use Black-Ops to take out the insurgeants when they least expect it, that way you avoid civilian casaultys.

 

[Kafka2]

I dont think i need to post again in this thread, i am a ''fool irritating liar'' after all, according to you. I prefer to stay with higher intelect stance/analysis like this doctor, then beeing insulted by brainwashed member.

"Higher intelect stance"? You started off by claiming that it never happened and/or the Iranians did it. Or have you whitewashed that out of history too?

Arguing the dictionary does nothing to hide the fact that your position is ethically bankrupt. How the hell can you dismiss the murder of hundreds of thousands to make some fatuous political comment?

 

[Tassadar]

"Higher intelect stance"? You started off by claiming that it never happened and/or the Iranians did it. Or have you whitewashed that out of history too?

Arguing the dictionary does nothing to hide the fact that your position is ethically bankrupt. How the hell can you dismiss the murder of hundreds of thousands to make some fatuous political comment?

I never said the gasing did not occur, so after insulting me, you are putting word in my mouth now, i have enough, reported to mod.

 

[ainwood]

Moderator Action: Thread is getting way off-topic, and too much flaming. Warnings to be sorted-out later.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889


Edit:

Moderator Action: Warnings logged for:
The Last Conformist
Sword Of Geddon
Kafka2
Tassadar