halflings?

[Morni]

Princess rule: if it can appear on a six year old girl's wall... it's not in FFH...

Then why does the game have horses and humans?

 

[Caseus]

Princess rule: if it can appear on a six year old girl's wall... it's not in FFH...

Then how do you explain elves? I can guarantee you Orlando Bloom/Legolas posters are on plenty of young girls' walls.

Since the princess rule has already been broken once, it is meaningless.

 

[Ekolite]

It basically means that unicorns, fairies, butterflys, w/e are not and will never be in FFH in the same way that they are known in fairy tales/high fantasy.

In FFH, elves tend to be vicious, murderous and devious people who would hapilly break into the house of a man in an opposing faction and murder him and his familly. They will do *anything* to protect their homeland and what they see as rightfully theirs, with no care whatsoever about the consequences of their actions. They are very much differnt to LOTR elves.

The Princess rule has not been broken.

 

[smjjames]

It also, means no cutesey big eyed creatures.

Although if it's an insectoid with big compound eyes, that's different.

 

[Fenboy]

Aren't gnomes a whole lot smaller than dwarves? the art scale would have to be damn tiny to represent gnomes.

Plus its a bit easier on the art team to not have to do two different versions of units for Khazad & Luchuirp.

Princess rule: if it can appear on a six year old girl's wall... it's not in FFH...

So no unicorns, hobbits, faeries, princesses, etc. (Unless they're suitably twisted, like Keelyn).

 

[Ksi]

Then why does the game have horses and humans?

They have walls in their room too. I guess there should be no walls in Erebus.

Seriously man, you know what we mean.

 

[Morni]

They have walls in their room too. I guess there should be no walls in Erebus.

Seriously man, you know what we mean.

I'm just pointing out that the princess rule shouldn't be taken literally. After all, the game has plenty of angels, but these angels are mean evilslaying machines, not cutesy cupids. In this case angels do not fall under the rule, because they aren't "cute" anymore.
This leads to my question: How is this not possible regarding halflings. As I stated earlier, I'm perfectly fine with there not being any halflings in FfH, but it seems everyone here instantly thinks of hobbits (LotR) instead of thinking of the darker sides of halflings, where they aren't "round" like hobbits and instead generally (and rightly) considered troublemakers, thieves, backstabbers etc. etc. These kinds of halflings could fit in just fine, just like elves can.
But again, I'm just fine with them not being in FfH, I'm just trying to get the point across that halflings aren't neccesarily the cozy hobbits you see in LotR.

 

[Darksaber1]

Ya, Basium would probably give the little girls nighmares.

 

[MetalMilitia-]

Frodo! Saaam...Frodo! Saaam...Frodo! Saaam...

NO!

 

[Kael]

Halflings/Hobbits are so strongly entwined with Tolkien that its difficult (if not impossible) to see much culture identity apart from tolkiens work. Dragonlance and other sources have played with the image but its still the mold that was created by Tolkien.

He created them because he wanted the hero to physically manifest the qualities of the story. He wanted his hero to be the least among us, and someone who carries on against impossible odds, and where stronger allies fail. He wanted them to contrast all the dark aspects of his books. The LotR would have been a very different story if Aragorn had been the main character and ring bearer. A much more typical fantasy story.

I think hobbits were an incredible storytelling detail for the LotR. But as a race they are unsuitable for FfH for exactly the reasons they were perfect for LotR. Where we explore corruption and redemption they remain uncorrupt, where our heroes exhibit virtues and vices they remain blissfully uneffected. Now I know that the hobbits of the LotR (smeagal being the prime example) are capable of corruption but these come through massive worldbending events. The corruption of FfH is much more personal and insidius. Smeagals corruption is all the more shocking in LotR because he is a hobbit. In our world even angels fall.

As to why we won't inlcude a changed version of halflings/hobbits. Well, when we name a race after a known source it has a good and a bad effect. On the good side we get to tap into all the player preconceptions about that race. People inherently understand that elves like forests and are good archers. It makes it easy for them to remember and seems to make sense (whatever that means in fantasy terms).

On the bad side just playing into those preconceptions is farily boring, every game has already done it. When we do it best we offer a known source but we do it with a twist that makes it interesting. Dwarves horde gold, everyone knows that, but that their happiness/productivity is based on it is the twist. Vampires operate common to how many would expect, but their history is quite different that any known course, etc.

If we used halflings but changed their function (made them into evil backstabbers, or klepto thieves) we would get all these preconceptions that wouldnt be true. People who love halflings would be confused by our mechanics for them, or dissapointed that the race they wanted to play didnt meet their visions. If we wanted a race of evil backstabbers or thieves (not that we do) surely we could find a more fitting design than halflings for that.

Lastly, a responce to the point about elves and the princess rule. Its very intentional design that the Ljosalfar and Svartalfar are more brutal and savage than the elves we are accustomed to in other stories. They are in a civil war and recovering from the effects of the age of ice. They would have been sylvan and beautiful during the age of magic but that time has past, and the starlit dances and artistry has been replaced with lethal tricks and warfare. Elves might appear on a little girls wall, but not these elves. I felt there was room in the elven concept for these sorts of elves, I dont think we have that with halflings.

edit: okay, one more really last point. There are no right and wrong answers to this stuff obviously. It is all subjective so Im not disagreeing with anyones point of view (and Im aware you can see it form either side), but the above is my take on it for good or for bad.

 

[smjjames]

yea sort of like the age of ice hardened them because they sometimes might have had to be pretty brutal to survive.

They still have a touch of the old days though, mostly in thier ballads (see pedia entries), traditions and those that are still alive from the last days of the Age of Magic. In fact, there were probably at least two or more generations of elves on both sides that were born or grew up during the Age of Ice, bieng exposed to the harshness of that time would have certainly changed those generations.

As far as I can tell, Arendel and Faeryl were certainly alive at the start of the age of ice as the pedia entry for both seems to be right at the start of it. Amelanchier and Thessa seem to have been born later though.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

As far as I can tell, Arendel and Faeryl were certainly alive at the start of the age of ice as the pedia entry for both seems to be right at the start of it. Amelanchier and Thessa seem to have been born later though.

Correct. Arenda, Faeryl, and Yvain were alive for much of the Age of Magic. I've always assumed that Amelanchier and Thessa were both born in the Age of Rebirth.

I always assumed that Thessa was the youngest of the elven leaders (born well into the age of rebirth), mostly because her youth is described and she was once caught reading a grimorie on necromancy stolen from the Calabim. Although Kael stated that the Calabim were one of the 9 (formerly 10, before I convinced him to drop the KuriotatesO nations formed by the Patrian Civil War, I still prefer to think that the Calabim nation was merely a small human tribe patronized by a few vampires before the Age of Rebirth, and that this already old grimorie wouldn't have even been written until then.

 

[DemonMaster]

Aah, you could at least include a halfling or gnome hero in the game. Why not a corrupt one that from time to time changes whos side is on (halflings doesn't know so much about the big world and gnomes are tricksters).

It would have been strange to play a halfling civ (a whole lot of rogues or what, a halfling in full plate, no, no, no).

 

[Nor'easter]

I agree with Kael that there's no need for a halfling civ, it doesn't seem to fit the FfH atmosphere.

Remember that in Tolkien's works, LOTR and The Hobbit represent only a tiny portion of Middle-Earth's history. Hobbit society played no significant role in world history throughout the First and Second Ages, and only very late in the Third Age did a handful of hobbits affect the world outside them. But the society as a whole was not influential.

In AD&D, meanwhile, halflings were the weakest demi-humans, with the most limited level advancement. I don't recall anyone I played with choosing to play as a halfling.

One approach that might be considered is to do what they did in the Warhammer mod for Civ 3 (I don't know what the Civ 4 Warhammer mod has done, since I haven't played it). They made halflings a strategic resource that, if you had access to it, allowed you to build a couple of fairly weak units (halfling mercenaries and halfling archers). Also, a city that has halflings in its radius can build a great wonder, The Moot, that gives one extra commerce in each city square that already produces at least one.

I don't necessarily advocate this approach, since I don't think FfH suffers by not having halflings, but I just thought I'd mention what's been done elsewhere.

 

[thapagan]

While I am against adding a hobbit like race, I would not be adverse to adding a "lucky"
promotion to a unit /unit class of one of the races that are "bland".
Nomad, winterborn and homeland are nice, but don't fare well when compared to sinsiter of dexterity, and lets not talk about vampireism or the freaky mimics.

So maybe priest's blessed with "lugus Luck" or something.....

Or maybe not?

 

[wilboman]

Lastly, a responce to the point about elves and the princess rule. Its very intentional design that the Ljosalfar and Svartalfar are more brutal and savage than the elves we are accustomed to in other stories. They are in a civil war and recovering from the effects of the age of ice. They would have been sylvan and beautiful during the age of magic but that time has past, and the starlit dances and artistry has been replaced with lethal tricks and warfare. Elves might appear on a little girls wall, but not these elves.

It's funny, having grown up with a fair bit of influence from Irish and Norse mythology, I have absolutely no problem with elves (faeries, vetter, nisser, alfar, what have you) as selfish, mischievous and disdainful of humans. In fact, I think that is a much more interesting aspect of them than the pseudo-demigod aspect that gets overused in high fantasy.

And, of course, anyone that reads Pratchett knows that elves are not to be trusted. They're like cats or certain stars, they have glamour (which lets them get away with things) but not much of a conscience.

 

[Fenboy]

And, of course, anyone that reads Pratchett knows that elves are not to be trusted. They're like cats or certain stars, they have glamour (which lets them get away with things) but not much of a conscience.

If Faeryl Viconia looked like Jonas Endain, we'd realise what a nasty, cruel and spiteful creature she is . Looking as she does however, too many people are like "oooh...boooobs"

 

[A_Hamster]

If Faeryl Viconia looked like Jonas Endain, we'd realise what a nasty, cruel and spiteful creature she is . Looking as she does however, too many people are like "oooh...boooobs"

"Oooh...boooobs" Oh, were you saying something?

Seriously, the Nordic and the Celtic view of Elves were not the noble people of Tolkien's Middle-Earth. They were far more like the Svaltalfar in the game rather than the Elves of Lothlorien or Rivendale.

 

[Darksaber1]

Well, I think it was Germans, believed eleves were butiful and fair from the front, but if you saw them from behind you would see that they were completly hollow.
Edit: o, yes, and the scots belived in a skinless elf that rose from the bottom of the sea, and was responsible for all desies, sicknes, death and madness.

 

[Nor'easter]

If you've read the Silmarillion, you know that Tolkien's elves are not all necessarily noble or high-minded. And they're definitely not playful sprites. You're not going to see any of the Noldor of Beleriand working in Santa's Workshop.