Han Jae-Moon

[GenEngineer]

@GenEngineer - The United States practices capital punishment but I wouldn't call it evil based on that.

Because capital punishment follows an act. Regardless of the morality of capital punishment in the first place, it nevertheless waits until after the crime has been committed. It doesn't, in monitoring the brainwaves of it's people, say that the weakening or outright elimination of a concept of the self and personality failed, therefore we should kill him just in case they express an opinion contrary to ours.

That is not every collectivist society (for one thing, pressure to conform is coming from the top instead of laterally), but it is every tyranny and dictatorship, and therefore I feel justified in maintaining the belief that the Chosung organization is definitely not the most benevolent.

AS for Han Jae-Moon... could go either way. Depends on whether killing the doctor to prevent his own death was necessary and justified or not.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I hope you don't think those countries are inherently immoral.

No, I don't think those countries are immoral. But I consider those countries to be hybrids, not pure collectivist societies.

 

[Westwall]

It doesn't, in monitoring the brainwaves of it's people, say that the weakening or outright elimination of a concept of the self and personality failed, therefore we should kill him just in case they express an opinion contrary to ours.

That's basically how it was in the HALO universe with the SPARTAN program.

And that program kicked ass and saved humanity. I wouldn't call that evil.

No, I don't think those countries are immoral. But I consider those countries to be hybrids, not pure collectivist societies.

Newsflash: There's no such thing as a pure collectivist or individualist society.

Nothing is a pure anything society.

In fact a purely individualist society would be anarchy, so your point about collectivism being exceptionally evil falls flat on its face.

 

[GenEngineer]

That's basically how it was in the HALO universe with the SPARTAN program.

And that program kicked ass and saved humanity. I wouldn't call that evil.

I would. Just because something does good, doesn't mean it wasn't evil to attempt it. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Even if we were to assume that the ends justify the means (a sentiment that is typically more associated with unpleasant groups than pleasant ones), you seem to be intentionally assuming benevolence in an attempt to balance out the distrust, claiming that we are being stereotypical and nasty for not liking a collectivist society. But this is not collectivism, it's tyranny.

 

[Westwall]

I would. Just because something does good, doesn't mean it wasn't evil to attempt it. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Then I think in the case of HALO, you mean to say the road to good was paved with bad intentions.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Would it be reasonable to say that this Chengsu organization (whatever its purpose and origin) does not fully represent the people of Korea? It doesn't necessarily represent the character of the people.

It's hard to say exactly what it is from the entry. It could be a military initiative, a civil organization, an organized crime syndicate, some kind of corporate conglomerate, or the actual government of one or both Koreas.

What does Chengsu mean anyway?

 

[poom3619]

EDIT : It is Chungsu - Meaning is... Appendix?
Another news, Korean call him Moon Han-Jae (문한&#51116 - Han Jae-Moon is real life person

Chongsu is "supreme leader". which better suit for this faction to me, or did the dev assume no player can use Google?
Chengsu (쳉&#49688 is a name of a person, possibly a Korean reading of a chinese tennis player.

Closest word, Jengsu (젱&#49688 also mean nothing but Korean person' name : Closest sensible word 정수 (Jeongsu) led me this result
integer
whole number
essence
marrow
clean water
positive number
quorum
soul
pureness
stagnant water
semen
proper move
flower

 

[SupremacyKing2]

In fact a purely individualist society would be anarchy, so your point about collectivism being exceptionally evil falls flat on its face.

But some countries have been more collectivist than others. And the examples that we have from history of countries that went more hardcore collectivist did produce great human tragedies whereas countries that were less collectivist did not. So an argument based on history can be made that the more collectivist a country is, the more likely its policies will be immoral.

 

[oldag07]

But some countries have been more collectivist than others. And the examples that we have from history of countries that went more hardcore collectivist did produce great human tragedies whereas countries that were less collectivist did not. So an argument based on history can be made that the more collectivist a country is, the more likely its policies will be immoral.

Of course it depends on how you define collectivist. What many libertarians would love, low taxes, low government societies are found in this world. These are some of these third world countries that sure you have no taxes, but you can get robbed tomorrow, and no one would do anything for you. You can't trust anything you buy. etc etc.

I have also heard arguments stating that America is very collectivist it just believes it is a individualisitic society. Americans are among the best at paying taxes. Especially compared to more "progressive" countries that hose their rich. We have a strong respect for the system of law, and have strong cultural and legal protections against stuff like nepotism.

 

[Cyon]

What do you think we'll be the best strategy playing this faction?

I'm thinking early scouting building lots of patrol boats and explorers to find the other factions so you can spy on them.

Use your starting spy to discover computers early. Take knowledge and might to boost your spies and then spy away.

 

[poom3619]

"Moral" can subject to whose media you're listening to, IMO

 

[Westwall]

But some countries have been more collectivist than others. And the examples that we have from history of countries that went more hardcore collectivist did produce great human tragedies whereas countries that were less collectivist did not.

Going hardcore anything produces great human tragedy.

Believing countries that went hardcore individualist didn't produce tragedy is just false.

 

[Ryika]

I'd go even further and say "Morality" is a religious concept that holds no worth.
And I think many people seem to use the word "collectivism" when they mean "totalitarianism".

Believing countries that went hardcore individualist didn't produce tragedy is just false.

Examples? And did they produce tragedy BECAUSE they went hardcore individualist?

 

[GenEngineer]

I'd go even further and say "Morality" is a religious concept that holds no worth.
And I think many people seem to use the word "collectivism" when they mean "totalitarianism".

That's the point I've been trying to make - if the unity is forced from the top, it's tyranny, not collectivism.

As for everything else, generally speaking, extremism is bad. Can we at least agree on that point

 

[Westwall]

I'd go even further and say "Morality" is a religious concept that holds no worth.


Examples? And did they produce tragedy BECAUSE they went hardcore individualist?

Well if we're going to open that can of worms, did collectivist societies produce tragedy because they went hardcore collectivist?

Because a society that strictly looks out for the collective good should by definition not allow for mass tragedy.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Please let us not stray outside of the game world and into real world politics. Back to topic.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[SupremacyKing2]

did collectivist societies produce tragedy because they went hardcore collectivist?

Yes! An estimated 18 to 45 million Chinese died during the Great Leap Forward as a direct result of collectivist policies to move the country from an agrarian society to an industrial one.

edit: that is all I am going to say since we've strayed way off topic at this point.

 

[Westwall]

That was the product of mismanagement of policy rather than a condemnation of collectivism as a philosophy.

A more effective policy would've been to collectively work towards a mixed society and economy.

Edit: And that is also all I'm going to say since we've strayed off topic.

 

[Ashbery76]

I thought they would get a food bonus becauase they eat anything.Alien on toast.

 

[poom3619]

I thought they would get a food bonus becauase they eat anything.Alien on toast.

What about the French? Isn't that also applied to the French?