Have unique civilizations develop later in the game rather than at start

[polypheus]

I dunno if this idea can be created in any mod for Civ5 and perhaps such an idea is already been made for Civ4. And perhaps this idea has already been suggested so apologize if this is a repeat. But an interesting idea for making unique civilizations that I think would both improve historical immersion and increase gameplay as well is to make unique civilizations occur after the game has started rather than at game start.

In other words, in the beginning, all Civs are just generic undistinguised "barbarian" Civs. But through being the first to research a certain tech or social policy or first to complete certain "quests" or whatever, it then makes that generic Civ into a specific Civ such as England or whatever. It would be kind of like how in Civ4, the first to get to a certain tech founds a certain religion. But here the first to research certain techs and/or social policies would "found" a unique nation with unique characteristics at that point in time. And like the great prophet mechanic of Civ4, you could even enhance it with a "great leader" mechanic that instead of building the shrine, actually "builds" your unique nation from a generic one!

Obviously this idea might be undesirable for those who want to play with specific Civs against other specific Civs from day one. But as a mod idea, what do people think of it?

 

[Johan de Witt]

I think it's a great idea.

Back in Civ 1, everything was generic. The only thing that you got from choosing a certain nation was a color and the city-names.

But I would even go further... Adding in-game achievements that really change your nation while you play.

 

[Camikaze]

So would these later developing Civs be in games alongside Civs as they currently are, to add another dimension to these games, or would they only be in the game with other Civs in a similar position?

 

[polypheus]

So would these later developing Civs be in games alongside Civs as they currently are, to add another dimension to these games, or would they only be in the game with other Civs in a similar position?

I was imagining that all Civs would start out generic and later become unique civilization through fulfilling certain requirements. But the way you put it, there's no reason this has to be the case. You could have generic Civs start alongside other Civs that are already unique from the start (like now).

 

[CGG1066]

Maybe a better way to go about it would be to use culture points (getting abilities later in the game is already sort of like policies anyway). After your third policy or so you get an button on the policy screen that would allow you to - instead of selection anew policy - "found nation"; and you would get to pick your civ then, or you can continue down the policy tree until more civs are unlocked.

Game-play wise, this shifts the focus for the early part of the game - you can't neglect culture/wonders, or you get the last choice. Arguably, this will balance out the game a little more, since early stages are already so military-based.

Also, maybe only certain civs are available depending on what early policies you adopted - if you go with honor you'll have your choice between Aztec, Japan, etc.

You could tweak the balance of the civs too: maybe make America really overpowered, but require a policy you wouldn't be likely to get until the industrial era - allowing for a long, hard, slog that tries civ's souls, but has a big payoff - if you survive.

Kinda a fun idea . . . (not sure if I'm sold - but it made me think)

 

[Scilly_guy]

I have always thought this, don't think I have ever actually suggested it, at least not in the last couple of years.

I always pictured it working with the Civ IV quests, "Build 9 swords men", If you complete this quest then you gain access to the samurai unique unit. "Build harbours in all your cities", you get a unique coastal building, if your civilisation also has the Great Lighthouse you can choose between unique unit or unique building.

Perhaps this mechanism results in the strong getting stronger, but it also means that land locked countries don't have useless unique water units.

 

[Camikaze]

I'm can't say I'm a massive fan of this idea, to be honest. The idea has always been that you run a civilization from its founding to victory, not that you run a bunch of barbarians that will then turn into a civilization.

 

[polypheus]

I have always thought this, don't think I have ever actually suggested it, at least not in the last couple of years.

I always pictured it working with the Civ IV quests, "Build 9 swords men", If you complete this quest then you gain access to the samurai unique unit. "Build harbours in all your cities", you get a unique coastal building, if your civilisation also has the Great Lighthouse you can choose between unique unit or unique building.

Perhaps this mechanism results in the strong getting stronger, but it also means that land locked countries don't have useless unique water units.

Yes I was thinking along those lines with my idea. Ever since unique units and such were introduced, I've often felt that instead of "pre-destining" such things from 4000BC to sometime in the distant future whether it makes sense of not (such as, say, Man-o-War UU for a land-locked England), it would make sense for these things to be unlocked due to specific achievements. The same would go for unique civilization abilities and bonuses. But you'd just have to make sure to perhaps limit it so one Civ doesn't just collect them all.

 

[Scilly_guy]

One civ could build all the wonders, but they don't; so long as the "Quests" are well chosen/designed it would be difficult for one civ to get them all.

 

[polypheus]

I'm can't say I'm a massive fan of this idea, to be honest. The idea has always been that you run a civilization from its founding to victory, not that you run a bunch of barbarians that will then turn into a civilization.

Well its really more of a mod idea than anything else. But the point is that you "uniquify" your civilization's characteristics in terms of unique elements and bonuses along the way through fulfilling requirements rather than have these things "pre-destined" from the start. Its no different than how we have it so that anyone can build the Pyramids rather than Egypt only is pre-destined to have it built for it in the future. Think about that.

 

[Camikaze]

What are some examples of the elements that would be unique and dependent upon what you do early in the game?

 

[polypheus]

What are some examples of the elements that would be unique and dependent upon what you do early in the game?

Any of the things that made Civs unique from one another such as unique units, buildings abilities, etc.

 

[Camikaze]

I mean specific examples of things that you would do to gain these unique characteristics and elements, as per the idea suggested in the OP.

 

[Tee Kay]

OP should really play Europa Universalis (II or III, with expansions).

 

[UWHabs]

It would be interesting, but I think it might be more interesting as a mod (or scenario-type situation).

So in civ5 terms, you start the game with you and everyone else as a simple city-state. You allow city states to grow and expand (but there's not enough space for more than about 2-3 cities per city state). So, once your civ gets to maybe 3 cities and a certain level of culture or tech, it suddenly develops into a full civ. Only a full civ can win by the original VCs.

I think it would be fun. You could have the Athens city state spread out and then get into a war with the Sparta city-state. So then Sparta conquers Athens, which triggers the conditions and they become a new full fledged civ.

You'd need to change a lot about how city-states work. You'd probably have to have some sort of non-aggressive way to merge city-states (so maybe if you buy up enough influence in a neighbouring city-state, they will cede to your empire), or maybe even working in some sort of provincial ideas, so that you can merge with another city-state and that would become like a permanent alliance in civ4.

 

[Johan de Witt]

Example:

Achievement
You built 5 archers.
Effect
Due to effective bowmaking, all your archers gain precision 1.

Achievement
You have a library in 7 cities
Effect
You gain a university in your biggest city and the ability to build new universities.

Just ideas.

 

[Scilly_guy]

I was thinking more like "You have successfully upgraded two archers to (some level), as you are the first to acheive this you can now construct Longbow men".

And things like the Civ IV quests, "Build a big enough navy to control the seas, if you possess the great lighthouse you will be more greatly rewarded." But instead of just giving a number of boats and harbours to be built the player might actually have to have the strongest navy for x number of turns.

 

[Johan de Witt]

And make these also prerequisites for wonders. The early game rush to wonders is kinda wierd.

Someone building the great lighthouse before anyone has ever built a single warship is a bit weird.

 

[Atwork]

There was a CIV4 Mod called "BarbarianCiv" that allowed barbarians, once settled, to spawn into a barbarian city. If the city wasn't destroyed within a certain number of turns, I set mine to 10 turns I think, then the city would spawn into a random civilization.

The new civilization would come online with 2/3 technology of the last place civ, a moderate sized mixed-military, a scout, a couple workers, and maybe a settler.

When the new civ came online, it was immediately at war with everyone within a certain radius and nobody could conduct relations with the civ for a certain number of turns, I think I set mine for 15 turns or something like that. The new civ came on as a real threat usually, as it would spawn out on the frontier and usu. had enough military to put surrounding cities under serious duress. It was a great mod!

With the tech diffusion mod incl., the new civ would sometimes catch up technologically though it usu. remained fairly backwards. But, if it had room to expand, then it often would become quite big. I remember at least a couple games where the new civ actually became a world power by the feudal ages! It was (is) a great design!

I really hoped that this was the direction the developers were gonna take city-states in C5.....but, uh, no.


Here's the link if you wanna check it out: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=170243


It was incorporated very nicely into several other mods incl. RevolutionDCM (my favorite!): http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=8322

 

[Camikaze]

That actually sounds really good. You wouldn't want to be subject to too much random chance in terms of survival, but so long as there were measures you could take to prevent falling victim to luck (I guess making sure all sides of your empire are sufficiently defended would be one of them), then that would be a pretty awesome feature.