HBO: A Game of Thrones (ASOIAF)

[nato2101]

Difficult to judge without knowing the quality of the Italian version - there's a lot of wit in Martin's writing that might get lost without a decent translator. If you don't like the major storylines at all, that won't save the books for you though.

Spoiler :

And btw, for me the fact that the house built up as protagonists suffers the most is one of the best aspects of ASoIaF. I've never read a book that's so harsh to its (sympathetic) main characters before, and I also had to get used to it - while clinging to stupid hopes like "oh certainly some magic will fix up Bran's legs" that naturally won't come true. I guess the reason for that is that most authors are cowards ... they grow so fond of the characters they invested so much time in to make them likeable that they don't dare to kill them. I knew I held a great series in my hands when

Spoiler Really DON'T read this if you don't know the ending of AGOT :

Ned got beheaded and all hopes of pardon or rescue in the last moment were disappointed

Most books have the reader go "oh, like you would really do it" whenever a main character is in danger. In Asoiaf, (almost) anyone can die.

Spoiler :

Directly? No, no Stark ever learns of it - not that they're much left in the end anyway. But Sansa definitely has to go through some gruesome things that I personally think she's learned her lesson.

Meh. The guy who wrote the Tanith series of Warhammer 40k killed off most of the better characters (in fact each book sees at least a couple of them die iirc) and in Romance of the Three Kingdoms the good guys (Shu) almost always end up on the losing side. But you still have someone to "support"
In this one tbh I get more frustrated with every chapter because it is too much like the real world where only the corrupt and immoral prevail. If I want realistic I'll buy a newspaper, or read a historical novel, in fantasy I prefer there to be a little bit of fantasy, I'm not asking for Hollywood style "Good guy was actually pretending to be out match, but then kills everybody".

Spoiler :

Directly? No, no Stark ever learns of it - not that they're much left in the end anyway. But Sansa definitely has to go through some gruesome things that I personally think she's learned her lesson.

Spoiler :

Unless things get a lot worse than being an abused "wife" I don't think she pays nearly as much as her family which gets wiped out because of her.

 

[Leoreth]

Now you're exaggerating. The only "good" POV characters that die are

Spoiler ASOS :

Caitlyn and Eddard, plus Robb.

Brandon, Arya and Sansa suffer to varying degree; the only ones to have it bad is Winterfell's household and later many of the Stark's vassals.

I'd say there are still many sympathetic characters around. You have

Spoiler :

Jon and Daenerys

as more or less representatives for the heroic archetype and

Spoiler :

Arya, Davos, Brienne, Sam, Jaime, Tyrion

in the "minor good guy" and "probably good but morally gray character" categories, depending on your liking of those.

On the Sansa topic:
I don't say she suffers physically as much as many other characters do, but there's really some poetic justice in the fact that

Spoiler AGOT :

She betrayed her father to stay close to Joffrey and the court, and after she gets what she wants, it doesn't only outlaw her family, but also turns what she desired most into a personal hellhole.

Also I can't let go the implication that everything that happens to the Starks is her fault. Even if she didn't do what she did there would still be:

Spoiler :

Eddard stupidly refusing Renly's offer and asking Cersei to leave which gives her precious time to counter-scheme.
Eddard trusting Littlefinger over Varys.
Catelyn arresting Tyrion at the inn.

A good point can be made that Eddard's behavior is what screwed everything up regardless of Sansa's actions. Weirdly I don't see the same accusations leveled against him that I see against Sansa (Catelyn, on the other hand ...).

 

[Adria]

Overall I was quite happy with how the pilot turned out. The casting so far is pretty good.

Yeah, in any case, the Dothraki portrayal for me was very negative. They even renamed the khals "tribes," as if the HBO audience was too dumb to comprehend neologisms. Of course the greatest crime is Others -> White Walkers. How is the R'hllor vs Great Other dualism going to work now? "White Walkers" also sounds like the least ominous thing ever.

I might have to watch the first episode again, but does anyone other than Viserys use the term "tribe" for the Dothraki? I just took it as a sign of ignorance/disrespect on Viserys' part. But if Jorah or even Illyrio use the word "tribe" regularly, I could be wrong. Here's hoping they move into the correct terminology as Daenerys becomes more familiar with the Dothraki herself.

I agree the "White Walkers" is a crappy name for the Others. I can see how "Others" wouldn't translate well to the screen, but there had to be a better option than "White Walkers." Wights perhaps?

 

[nato2101]

Now you're exaggerating. The only "good" POV characters that die are

Spoiler ASOS :

Caitlyn and Eddard, plus Robb.

Brandon, Arya and Sansa suffer to varying degree; the only ones to have it bad is Winterfell's household and later many of the Stark's vassals.

I'd say there are still many sympathetic characters around. You have

Spoiler :

Jon and Daenerys

as more or less representatives for the heroic archetype and

Spoiler :

Arya, Davos, Brienne, Sam, Jaime, Tyrion

in the "minor good guy" and "probably good but morally gray character" categories, depending on your liking of those.

On the Sansa topic:
I don't say she suffers physically as much as many other characters do, but there's really some poetic justice in the fact that

Spoiler AGOT :

She betrayed her father to stay close to Joffrey and the court, and after she gets what she wants, it doesn't only outlaw her family, but also turns what she desired most into a personal hellhole.

Also I can't let go the implication that everything that happens to the Starks is her fault. Even if she didn't do what she did there would still be:

Spoiler :

Eddard stupidly refusing Renly's offer and asking Cersei to leave which gives her precious time to counter-scheme.
Eddard trusting Littlefinger over Varys.
Catelyn arresting Tyrion at the inn.

A good point can be made that Eddard's behavior is what screwed everything up regardless of Sansa's actions. Weirdly I don't see the same accusations leveled against him that I see against Sansa (Catelyn, on the other hand ...).

I might be remembering incorrectly or didn't get far enough in, but from what I remember

Spoiler :

Stark was simply leaving the capital to go back to his kingdom, Sansa was unhappy about being forced to leave her handsome husband to be and went to the Queen which alerted her of Stark's intentions, and yes he was wrong to trust his wife's old friend but then without Sansa warning the Queen would the Queen have recruited him to her cause (which at least in Italian was quite clear, the Queen went to him, not he to her)?
And Stark's actions might have been foolish and "naive" but they were honourable, Sansa's were selfish there was nothing else motivating her.

As for the characters: all I remember about Davos is him warning Stannis that the nobles wouldn't support him, preferring Rnely. Tyrion and Jaime were Lannisters, and Jaime at least was involved in murdering the King not exactly "heroic". Arya fleeing with the recruiter from the barrier. And I can't remember if I got to where Daenerys got back to the land, all I can remember is when she traded one of the dragons for an army

Also I should point out the ones I read, I read out of order because over here the titles are very different and there is no list in the beginning of the book to establish a chronology (and I was too young to thing of checking wiki)

 

[Karalysia]

I agree the "White Walkers" is a crappy name for the Others. I can see how "Others" wouldn't translate well to the screen, but there had to be a better option than "White Walkers." Wights perhaps?

If M. Night Shamlyamamlaananananahgghga could use Others/Outsiders in The Village then I think it would work fine here.

 

[Truronian]

I imagine they wanted to avoid sharing th term with Lost.

 

[Yeekim]

Season 2 is greenlit!

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Season 2 is greenlit!

Already ?
My worry about the series is:
Suppose the show doesn't get cancelled and they do one season per year and book, what are the chances book six will be finished before season five has aired ?
Let's hope the last two books don't take as long as A dance with Dragons and Martin doesn' pull a Robert Jordan.

 

[Leoreth]

I guess Martin is quite motivated himself to not pull a Jordan

The supposed reason why ADWD took so long is that Martin originally planned to insert a five year timeskip before the book to advance certain plot points. For some reason, he felt that doesn't pan out / feels contrived considering how intense the events are in AFFC. Plus, the infamous "Meereenese knot".

But I'm surprised they decide on season two only by the pilot. Considering what's going on in a hypothetical second season in regards of even larger cast and much larger battles, they really seem to expect a decent revenue.

 

[Kraznaya]

Spoiler :

I never found Joffrey's characterization anything else than static - he seems to have been an ass right from the beginning (remember the kitten incident?). But Cersei's flanderization really was awful, especially that Martin found it necessary to contrive additional motivation for her behavior when she was really well-rounded before.

Joffrey had potential to be a Magnificent Bastard and Karma Houdini et al from his portrayal in the first book. Remember, he managed to charm Sansa both at Winterfell and at the Tourney of the King's Hand - his charms are what convinced Sansa to tattle on Eddard in the first place. His cruelty/insanity became flanderized in the following books, and his "kingly mask" all but disappeared. Obviously, charming Margarey Tyrell would've been far more difficult than doing the same to Sansa had been, but the potential was there.

Spoiler :

And btw, for me the fact that the house built up as protagonists suffers the most is one of the best aspects of ASoIaF. I've never read a book that's so harsh to its (sympathetic) main characters before, and I also had to get used to it - while clinging to stupid hopes like "oh certainly some magic will fix up Bran's legs" that naturally won't come true. I guess the reason for that is that most authors are cowards ... they grow so fond of the characters they invested so much time in to make them likeable that they don't dare to kill them. I knew I held a great series in my hands when

Spoiler Really DON'T read this if you don't know the ending of AGOT :

Ned got beheaded and all hopes of pardon or rescue in the last moment were disappointed

Most books have the reader go "oh, like you would really do it" whenever a main character is in danger. In Asoiaf, (almost) anyone can die.

I really feel like Martin's KILL THEM ALL characteristics are exaggerated. The only POV characters who have died so far have been Eddard and Catelyn; Robb was essentially a blank state who happened to be good at winning battles and terrible at politics. In terms of character development, his biggest cliche in my opinion is "POV Disease" - POV characters tend to become more sympathetic and more wretched as their perspectives progress. The only exceptions so far might be the anomalous Cersei perspective, and the extraneous Theon one. Dany doesn't count because she's perfect.

I might be remembering incorrectly or didn't get far enough in, but from what I remember

Spoiler :

Stark was simply leaving the capital to go back to his kingdom, Sansa was unhappy about being forced to leave her handsome husband to be and went to the Queen which alerted her of Stark's intentions, and yes he was wrong to trust his wife's old friend but then without Sansa warning the Queen would the Queen have recruited him to her cause (which at least in Italian was quite clear, the Queen went to him, not he to her)?
And Stark's actions might have been foolish and "naive" but they were honourable, Sansa's were selfish there was nothing else motivating her.

As for the characters: all I remember about Davos is him warning Stannis that the nobles wouldn't support him, preferring Rnely. Tyrion and Jaime were Lannisters, and Jaime at least was involved in murdering the King not exactly "heroic". Arya fleeing with the recruiter from the barrier. And I can't remember if I got to where Daenerys got back to the land, all I can remember is when she traded one of the dragons for an army

Also I should point out the ones I read, I read out of order because over here the titles are very different and there is no list in the beginning of the book to establish a chronology (and I was too young to thing of checking wiki)

If you're classifying Tyrion and Jaime as evil because they're Lannisters, and giving the Starks besides Sansa a free pass, you're reading it completely the wrong way.

I've only read the first 2 books so spoilers are good for me if you're discussing the later ones.

You should really read the later ones. A Storm of Swords is particularly good, and of course they are far better than the HBO adaptation. I don't think a TV series can really be viewed as a substitute for the books - only a complement.

 

[Leoreth]

Spoiler :

Joffrey had potential to be a Magnificent Bastard and Karma Houdini et al from his portrayal in the first book. Remember, he managed to charm Sansa both at Winterfell and at the Tourney of the King's Hand - his charms are what convinced Sansa to tattle on Eddard in the first place. His cruelty/insanity became flanderized in the following books, and his "kingly mask" all but disappeared. Obviously, charming Margarey Tyrell would've been far more difficult than doing the same to Sansa had been, but the potential was there.

Well, assuming Bran's assassination attempt wasn't a retcon, he has the cruelty right from the beginning.

There are also some in-story reasons for his change in behavior: the Stark's fall from grace only makes it possible to bully Sansa around in the first place (you can only win the King's Hand's daughter by charme, not force). Robert's death may have changed things as well - Joffrey still wanted to impress him by acting like a real prince in the few moments that Robert cared. With only Cersei around - why play nice?

I really feel like Martin's KILL THEM ALL characteristics are exaggerated. The only POV characters who have died so far have been Eddard and Catelyn; Robb was essentially a blank state who happened to be good at winning battles and terrible at politics. In terms of character development, his biggest cliche in my opinion is "POV Disease" - POV characters tend to become more sympathetic and more wretched as their perspectives progress. The only exceptions so far might be the anomalous Cersei perspective, and the extraneous Theon one. Dany doesn't count because she's perfect.

I never claimed Martin kills characters left and right, that's indeed a common misconception. I said anyone can die. Martin's shown that he's capable of killing off a character that until that point seemed to be the main character of the whole series. This means that he's perfectly capable of letting a character die if he's in a dangerous situation, which means the reader is really afraid he'll do it regardless of the actual outcome.

(I have to add though that his "external POV sees [character] die but is mistaken" takes a little away from it, after he's pulled it on Bran and Rickon, Theon and most annoyingly Arya).

I also think that the "POV disease" begins with the decision to make more characters to POV characters already. This is why AFFC was so mediocre imo. He DID pull it off quite well with Jaime in my opinion, Tyrion was morally ambivalent from the beginning, and he failed quite miserably in making Cersei sympathetic with the whole "she only wants to protect her children from the prophecy" angle.

 

[Kraznaya]

Spoiler :

Well, assuming Bran's assassination attempt wasn't a retcon, he has the cruelty right from the beginning.

There are also some in-story reasons for his change in behavior: the Stark's fall from grace only makes it possible to bully Sansa around in the first place (you can only win the King's Hand's daughter by charme, not force). Robert's death may have changed things as well - Joffrey still wanted to impress him by acting like a real prince in the few moments that Robert cared. With only Cersei around - why play nice?

Simple - the Tyrells were around. Joffrey's inability to disguise the more depraved aspects of his personality after the death of Eddard were what lead to his doom; Olenna Tyrell wouldn't have had the motive to poison him if the prospect of a Joffrey-Margaery marriage didn't become acceptable for the Tyrells. Joffrey lost his switch for malevolence, which all good villains need to keep ready, and therefore became a one dimensional character.

I never claimed Martin kills characters left and right, that's indeed a common misconception. I said anyone can die. Martin's shown that he's capable of killing off a character that until that point seemed to be the main character of the whole series. This means that he's perfectly capable of letting a character die if he's in a dangerous situation, which means the reader is really afraid he'll do it regardless of the actual outcome.

Eh, maybe. The amount of POV characters he's killed is surprisingly low, especially those with a lot of development.

(I have to add though that his "external POV sees [character] die but is mistaken" takes a little away from it, after he's pulled it on Bran and Rickon, Theon and most annoyingly Arya).

Arya's not-death was pretty screwed up because I wasn't really emotionally ready to handle it after the Red Wedding. That moment and the death of Oberyn Martell were two of the most emotional in the series for me personally, which is part of why I liked Storm of Swords so much. To each to his own, I suppose.

I also think that the "POV disease" begins with the decision to make more characters to POV characters already. This is why AFFC was so mediocre imo. He DID pull it off quite well with Jaime in my opinion, Tyrion was morally ambivalent from the beginning, and he failed quite miserably in making Cersei sympathetic with the whole "she only wants to protect her children from the prophecy" angle.

I don't think he was trying to make her sympathetic - he wanted to have us examine her head and provide some form of justification or motive for her actions, but it wasn't all that well executed. I mean, when the best conclusion is PENIS ENVY + PROPHECY, it's a pretty poorly executed characterization overall.

 

[Leifmk]

Already ?

Apparently it has sold like hotcakes on the international market. For instance it's coming on a Norwegian pay TV channel quite soon (going to be about 2 or 3 weeks behind the US) and they're promoting the heck out of it, posters at bus stops and so on.

My worry about the series is:
Suppose the show doesn't get cancelled and they do one season per year and book, what are the chances book six will be finished before season five has aired ?

Welp, from what I've read here and there they're planning one season per book for the first two, then split the third book into two seasons (since it's pretty huge, the mass market paperback was split in two volumes as well), and probably interleave book 4 and 5 (they're happening more or less at the same time) into two or maybe even three more seasons.

 

[Leoreth]

Sometimes I envy you countries that don't bother with dubbing. Broadcasting in English is absolutely unheard of in Germany and the dubs take so long.

Fehh. Arya needs to be more young Ellen Page and less Creepy Little Girl.

Just look at her actress in the HBO Arya Stark portrait. She really seems to be channeling the "Arya is awesome" vibe, quite on the contrary to the sociopath interpretation.

 

[Yeekim]

Sometimes I envy you countries that don't bother with dubbing. Broadcasting in English is absolutely unheard of in Germany and the dubs take so long.

Dubbing anything else than cartoons for preschoolers is a crime against humanity as far as I am concerned.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Dubbing anything else than cartoons for preschoolers is a crime against humanity as far as I am concerned.

I wouldn't go that far.
German dubs are usually quite decent for high-profile movies ot TV series and I'd merely consider them as minor blasphemy, but I still prefer the originals.
If you want to see crimes against humanity check the idiotic subtitles Germans like attatching to american movies, or to stay a bit on topic the horrible covers for the German ASoIaF editions.

That's really not something I want to be seen reading on a bus.

 

[nato2101]

Dubbing anything else than cartoons for preschoolers is a crime against humanity as far as I am concerned.

I disagree, all the CSI's sound better in Italian. In English the female voices are annoying (especially NY) and sound like they should be in porn (especially Miami), in Italian they sound a lot better, and it is the same for other such programs. However comedies should never be dubbed, they lose a lot in the change of language, and modern/contemporary dubbers in general don't seem to be any good, we used to have a guy who did all the dubbing for De Niro and Pacino who was brilliant, now if I see a film in Italian the synch isn't great and the voice often doesn't match the persona.

 

[Leoreth]

Dubbing anything else than cartoons for preschoolers is a crime against humanity as far as I am concerned.

I strongly disagree. Dubbing may be economically unviable for languages with a small number of speakers and result in low quality efforts if undertaken at all.

German dubs on anything that's supposed to reach a wide enough audience to make it worthwhile are usually quite good. I often even find that the German voice actors are much better than the original voices. You might say that's an understandable reaction when you're already familiar with the dubbed voices, but I've even come to this opinion on things like How I Met Your Mother, which I started watching in English and now see once in a while on television.

The reason why dubs are often still of lower quality are actually the translators, because the translations often seem so out of context it makes you wonder if they even watched the movie they're translating before (turned out they often don't - producers send them snippets long before the final cut to minimize the translation time). Oh, and the growing desire of translators to bowdlerize and to translate English place names (Asoiaf gets inflicted with that as well, luckily only for minor towns, but annoyingly already mentioned English names switch to German ones in later books). And of course, every kind comedy - it rarely survives even the best translation attempts intact.

Speaking of voice acting, am I really the only one bothered by Jon Snow's voice here? It's so annoyingly deep, and while I'm not good at recognizing English accents, it seems he's trying to imitate one that's certainly not his. This is all the more vexing because the actor's natural voice would've done just fine in my opinion.

 

[NovaKart]

I hate Turkish dubbing, an adult woman does the children's voices and they always sound really annoying.

The worst is when I was in Georgia. The movies on TV aren't exactly dubbed but just have someone speaking in Georgian over the original voices which you can still hear but quieter. I've seen some Russian dubs like this too but they also have some decent dubbing, at least for more popular things.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I hate Turkish dubbing, an adult woman does the children's voices and they always sound really annoying.

The worst is when I was in Georgia. The movies on TV aren't exactly dubbed but just have someone speaking in Georgian over the original voices which you can still hear but quieter. I've seen some Russian dubs like this too but they also have some decent dubbing, at least for more popular things.

Well, German dubs are good but I remember seeing some polish TV and they usually do the same think like in georgia.
One guy talks oover the original voices.
Just one guy for all characters.