Hegemon

Takhisis · Feb 18, 2012

Today's game report.

The Euboeans are so stupid as to leave a stack of Polemistes units just beside the city I'd taken from them and they were later besieging. They're actually giving me a cassus belli.

The Illyrians are demanding Islanders, which wouldn't do them any good. Obviously I refuse so, like the Macedonians once did, a horde will come through Thevai.

Why do Libraries not yield culture?

Lydia needs a more extense city list, as they're at Sardeis 2.

The AI cheats! I have a Polemistes exploring Chalkidike and the Illyrians suddenly descend on him. This death shall not go unavenged.

I recommend ship hoppingas a good strategy to relay tribute fater across the ocean.

The Euboians have a city called Eritrea. It is my belief that city was called Eretria, but I am of humble barbarian descent.

Champion unit: sound problem. It appears that the attacker screams twice, as if two men were shouting one after the other.

Interesting finding: Great leaders and Armies appear to be untransportable.I suppose they're not marked as Infantry units and so until I get Imperial Triremes I'm screwed.

Flava flav tidbit: In Greek it's Triere and Diere, instead of Tirreme and Birreme.

Bolded for emphasis. If you generate a Leader in soem far-off island you can't do anything with him except maybe rush a SW there.

I also believe that Leaders should be upgraded to Champions or similar, civ3 Army mechanics are warped and they are usualyl gamebreakers, the AI is clueless about how to use them.

Rambuchan · Feb 18, 2012

Takhisis - Thanks for the comments. Some responses:

- Why are the Peltasts 'swordsmen' if their graphics and such indicate they're javelineers? - I don't recall what's in v1.3. I know they appear at the same time, but I don't recall them being mentioned as swordsmen, but rather what are fielded in this category. Either way, I've already changed how Peltasts are used. Just slightly. For example, Macedonia now have their own Paeonian Peltast mercenaries.

- Lydia grows to be the most powerful country in the world - Yes, at their peak under King Croesus they did have a very big empire, bigger than anything the Greeks managed until, perhaps, the thalassocracy of Athens. Also, see my other comments above to Rathvilly regarding Persia. If you can post some further city names for them, I'd be most appreciative.

- Barbarian names remain to be edited - I know. If you want to come up with some lists I'd be grateful and glad to include some.

- There's still Engineers with helmets! - I know. The pop heads is something that hasn't been touched. There's nothing suitable on the boards that I found, so they'd have to be made from scratch.

- Diarchy - I hope your reading has been interesting and informative. The Spartans were pioneers amongst the Greeks in terms of organising their government. Although this dual kingship system was unique to Sparta, I've decided to leave this government open to all for two main reasons: (a) It's fun and useful and (b) the Spartan AI has been uncooperative and unreliable using it in tests. I've already written the pedia entries for this so no need to go to any trouble.

- Leaders & Armies not loading in ships - The problem in v1.3 is that the ships don't have a large enough carrying capacity to take them. I have fixed this and other things, see below.

- Naval Units - I have completely reworked all naval units for the upgrade. So, in the coming version, not only are armies transportable in ships, from the greater carrying capacity, but also: (a) Ships are generally cheaper and with no upkeep, (b) They are faster moving, especially when you start stacking the effects of wonders like the Temple of Poseidon and those wonders which Athens, Ionia, Dodekanese and others can build, (c) There's more power and diversity throughout the various navies, (d) the AI's naval activities are much more frisky. You can expect the AI to mount invasions from ships in the coming version.

- Champion unit: sound problem - Yes, this has been noted already.

- Marble & Naxos - That's strange. I'll look into it.

- Why do Libraries not yield culture? - Why should they? There are plenty of other culture producing buildings. I'm actually toying with renaming these to schools instead, though that too isn't ideal. Libraries didn't happen too much in this period and the education functions were mainly performed within Gymnasia, which are already represented.

- Avoid Sparta in a land war - Of course. They were the eminent Greek force on land throughout the period. Well, until the rise of Macedon under Phillip II, but they didn't submit to his League of Corinth either. That said, getting stuck into a war with Sparta is a fun challenge.

- Macedonia's warring habits - Yes, they come with hordes like barbarians in the early game. They do however slowly take on more Greek characteristics as the game progresses, eventually teaching everyone lesson in Hellenistic militarism, if they're so inclined that is.

- Euboea's strength - I have altered this. They are stronger in the coming version, though they will still have problems joining the top flight civs.

- Corinth getting squeezed - This has been tricky. They are a very good challenge to play with for a human but the AI generally lacks the ability to wield their powers effectively.

Keroro · Feb 19, 2012

Have been out of circulation for a while as I've been waiting for the 21st century to be routed into my new flat. Things are still pretty hectic, but hopefully March will be quieter. Good to see the thread is once again a hotbed of activity.

As things are still so busy for me I'll have to refrain from too much comment. but do owe Rambuchan a reply to his much earlier questions.

Rambuchan said:
Verily, Keroros, thou art a demi-god in our midst. To have led not one but two Hellenic peoples to victory is an heroic feat in itself. But to have done so in different ways is worthy of praise as only the divines are due. And, yet further still, you have perfectly sensed the alignment of the stars and posted at a time when the cogs of the Hegemon modding machine are once again stirring (more detail on this in next post). All put together, this is nothing short of a demonstration of divine blood coursing through your veins. All hail!

First, if you don't mind, and I'm sure you appreciate it's important to get feedback, a few questions on your game please. Then I'll give you and others an update in the next post.

So, once again, well done. I hope you had fun with the mighty Makedon? Seems you faced down the double barbarian threat of the Thracians and Illyrians with verve. I'm loving that human wall to the east. Were they a suitable challenge?

I think you've over-estimated my achievements a little and I was still at a difficulty level below what I normally play, but thanks.

Of course I don't deny my divine heritage, but as always the player is minor, the creator the greater.

Thracians and Illyrians were very difficult early on and in mid-game, as they should be for Macedon. Once I had clipped their wings they lost ground fairly quickly and by the time I had Petzhetairoi they didn't dare attack me anywhere, even if we were at war. I get the feeling that if they grow uncontrollably if there's no human presence in the north, and in that case they can be a threat late game. That's all good as far as I'm concerned.

All the AIs have the great habit of wandering merrily into your territory without invitation. It does mean you have to keep a constant eye on them which is probably a rather good thing. The Thebans and Illyrians are the worst at this since they have more units that cross mountains - giving them a good raiding, barbaric feel.

Rambuchan said:
~ On your Hegemonic Victory:

Of course, I'm curious, it's important, did you find this too difficult, too easy or just about right to achieve? Did you trade or conquer for the required resources, or use a blend? It seems from your map that you traded a fair bit. I hope that wasn't too easy.

I did trade a little, but sorry I don't remember exactly what. I think I got two at great expense from the Chersonnesoi and maybe two from Thebes (before breaking the deal and destroying them totally once the game was won). I had some trouble trading for others since the resources got separated. For instance, Sparta had one Messenian, Elis had one and Messenia had one. Therefore no one would consider a trade. Same problem with the Ionian resources - which is why on the map you can see that I conquered and held some Ionian islands and the region of Elis. All in all, once I was the dominant power I still found it rather tricky to 'finish the job'. Considering I had the 4 bugged tributes gifted at the start of the game I would say don't make it any harder.

Rambuchan said:
~ On your near Tribute Victory:

That's interesting. I really thought 60K would be too high. Seems I might have to keep the limit as is. But can I just check the settings you have for VPs in the biq you played with please? The settings in the biq I will be releasing are as follows:

Wonder Cost * 10
Defeating Opposing Unit * Cost 2
Advancement * Cost 2
City Conquest * Population 50
Victory Point Scoring 0
Capturing Special Unit 200
Gold for Capture 50

I had the same, except 100 for capturing special unit and 5 for advancements. I would take the unit down to 1 or even 0, due to the large number of units auto-produced. Also perhaps reduce the 'cost' of gymnitos to 20, 10 or even 0 so that they don't give any VPs? The advancement alteration is needed.

Rambuchan said:
~ Regarding the other civs:

- I'm glad to hear Thebes were a thorn in your side. I hope there was evidence of their Boeotian League improvements assisting them? Any indication of Athens and Sparta building and using theirs too?

- Lydia storming it. Grand. I'm happy with that. They should threaten victory. But it should be the Domination Victory they threaten.

- Sparta aren't always vicious steam rollers, it's true. I have of course been scouring Thucydides for this scenario and he often notes that they were slow and reluctant into war, and rarely the interventionist type. But, once stirred, they can be formidable, both as a power themselves and also diplomatically in calling up grand alliances, which they've managed easily in every game I've played. So I think I'm happy to live with their behaviour as is.

- I'm not sure lack of roads is the problem with what you're describing with the likes of Elis. I've seen them and say Messenia building them in my games. I think their lack of tech advancement has more to do with (a) them not being given the river under their capital, which I've used to boost many important civs, and also (b) that their expansion and city number is effectively blocked by Sparta. I generally feel that the more minor civs are about right but if you think it's really really wrong I can check things out.

- In the new unit assignment system that's coming with the upgrade the likes of Elis are beefed up some. So I hope those Akonista armies won't happen too much.

As I was still on a slightly lower difficulty level than I usually play the AIs as a rule didn't get far enough in the tech tree to use their league improvements. Bringing me to a concern I don't have a particular answer for. Many of the league improvements rely on the city guard improvement. But the Theban and more particularly the Athenian and Spartan leagues should really pre-date the Macedonian one by some time. Not sure how to achieve that (or whether you want to, at the moment it makes for a nice final era shoot-out)?

Lydia weren't that far from the domination limits, probably mainly held back by the number of population 12 cities I had in my realm and the number of recently founded cities they had that hadn't built any culture yet - once their cities had grown a little they would have just about been there I think. They really did do a good job on the mainland and had started to threaten the islands off the coast.

With regard to the roads, I would suggest giving some kind of extra impetus to researching the tech that give them. When playing Korinth I noted that Elis was much smaller but had roads, and their economy wasn't nearly as poor. In that game it was Mycenae that never got roads and I gobbled them up fairly quickly. I know these are meant to be minor races but this is a very central issue with the AI - no trade income equals no research.

Rambuchan said:
~ Regarding the Ionian Dock (part of the Hellenes League) & League Improvements in General:

Yes, I've already fixed this. Simply by repositioning the resources. It is still difficult to find the right placement, but at least it's possible now! In general, to give players similar strategic goals and challenges as these powers faced in history, I have chosen to put great importance on city placement in connection with the resources required to build certain improvements. It's tricky, but gets your mind into the same problems and goals as those civs faced in history. And it gets you going after the right bits of land.

Also, amongst the many changes I've made for release, I've drastically reduced the costs of the League Improvements, especially those that can only be built far from the capital. I've also cranked up the frequency of their respective auto-production. These changes make them more attractive and realistic and, I think, gives both human and AI a real incentive to build them.

Apart from the note above on timing of the various leagues this is all good. I did note the build times far from my capital were pretty drastic - I used gold to hurry them, but I'm not sure an AI is so likely to do so.

Rathvilly · Feb 19, 2012

Thanks ! Re Illyria - yes - you're quite vulnerable in the early part of the game. Don't say no to demands or you'll get crushed, as I found out in my first attempt at playing them. Getting access to the coast enabled me to build a few Dalmations and initiate my golden age. Had some minor naval action later in game when I took a few cities from Ithica. Built some Liburna's but did't get a chance to try them out. With Macedonia, probably could've taken them on mid game but I found them useful as a buffer against the Thracians (or vice-versa depending on who wanted to take a crack at me). Gameplay is very enjoyable - its good to play a scenario where you have to work all the game in order to win. You can't rest on your laurels (I lost another game playing Athens where I fatally paused ....). My plan with Illyria was to take out all mainland Greece and I was on track for this when the Lydian nemesis raised its head ....

Takhisis · Feb 19, 2012

The Korynthioi are fun to play, you have to build a sea empire like I'm doing with Athens while fighting it out with Mykenae and the Argioi. Expansion along the coast is a must. Athens, Sparta and Thebes are too strong for you, let them be, but don't let the Thebans build Orchomenos right on your doorstep or any of the Northern barbarians will sign an ROP pact with them and attack straight at your capital. Enetually you can also take Elis or even Messenia but Sparta remains untouchable until the third age.

Takhisis · Feb 20, 2012

City-states isn't a tradeable tech, is this intentional? Those nasty Spartans are sending Hoplites and their Xiphomakoi to Hermes knows where through Theban lands…

Rambuchan · Feb 20, 2012

Yes, that's intentional and it isn't the only non-tradeable tech.

I've been a bit swamped over the last few days but I'll get back to the other posts soon.

Takhisis · Feb 20, 2012

Ah, I wasn't sure as it isn't mentioned in the Civilopaedia.
The upside of that is that it's the only tech the Spartans could trade for some of mine so I don't have to trade with the idiots.

There is a problem, a lot of civs want Thassians and Islanders and the like which is quite stupid as they'll pay quite a bit for resources they can't possibly use.

Vuldacon · Feb 20, 2012

There is a problem, a lot of civs want Thassians and Islanders and the like which is quite stupid as they'll pay quite a bit for resources they can't possibly use.

ah, but they can use them..."Hegemonic Victory"

Takhisis · Feb 21, 2012

Well, tonight's log.

The Hero generated by the Temple of Aphrodite and the Theban Logchophoros both appear to have some sound files missing.

Prodromoi should not be underestimated as they're one of the few fast units available. Since cities are so close in the South, mostly in the Peloponessian and Attic Peninsulae, they're the only way to clear out the last member of a stack. Otherwise, often a Toxotes will be left in a position to attack because having only 1 point in Defense means it'll be the last defender, the Ai sends Akonistes as cheap cannon fodder to 'defend' the tile.

After I conquered Orchomenos and Thebai (shouldn't it be Thevai?

) my main ally is Sparta who is offering 17 Talents per turn in exchange for Literature. Since I'm 1 turn away from completion of the Temple of Zeus I'll take the offer next turn just to ensure they don't cheat on me.

I think that Thucydides' History enabling Espionage is somehow wrong. Maybe a Council, a Secret Room, something like tht would be better. Besides, having everyone build Thucydides's History seems a bit wrong.

11140 Tribute at 466BC. How am I doing?

Spartha should play in red, as many of their units have a red cloack/helmet.

I know you don't want to mess with diplo, but the queen of Ithake says 'Greetings Perikles. What do you desire me?'

For some reason I have the Argead Dynasty Wonder in the Wonder Screen mentioned as having been built in 0 AD.

There should be a way of ensuring the map doesn't become a patchwork like the current one.

Education and Philosophy for Masonry, Ballistics, Dyes and 272 Talents. Whoo-ee!

The Lydians have destroyed Bithynia and the Spartans have conquered argos itself (Nemea made a peace with them) but I am the one who gets ROP treaties refused for breaking one with Thevai (which ddn't exist).
The Lydians expand with a lot of crappy units. How crappy could Bithynia really have been?

We have a problem with the Leagues. Most of the 'improvements' can only be built in some far-off place. And those places are generally corrupt (I haven't got to Democracy, we're almost there). But the only way to get something built in Samos (besides wrestling it off the Lydians) is to send in a Leader.

Why do Tribute units cost money for their upkeep?

The city of Pronni (Ithake) has only a big black empty rectangle instead of city graphics.

We have a problem with Samos and the Samian Shipyard. Since there are no Ionians on the Island itself you can't build the Samian Shipyard on the island itself but on just the one tile the can have Samians from teh island and Ionians from the mainland. Very hard place to conquer and even harder to defend.
The place is also deprived of Islanders (unlike the island of Samos itself) so it can't be connected to the mainland. Maybe the Shipyard could to the trick by itself instead of having to spend a few decades building a Trade Port.

Quite a bit, eh?

Rambuchan · Feb 21, 2012

Keroros

Apologies for the delayed reply. Things have been a bit hectic lately. Firstly, let me say: Welcome back to the 21st century! I'll be getting disconnected from it myself in the next month or two. We finally got to see the completed flat, are happy with it, and recently got our mortgage offer and have engaged solicitors. Now into the black hole...

Many thanks for the extra detail and feedback on your game. Some comments and thoughts and further info on those now.

- The Makedon Experience - Your game with Makedon seemed to play out quite similarly to mine. Those barbaroi are tough! I was playing on my usual level and it was quite a challenge. As I think is right, I had no real chance to consider becoming a player amongst the Greeks until the middle of the Classical Era, when I had something like solid borders established and the superior troops kicked in. I had to use some deft diplomacy (often sending them to war with each other across my land) to maintain anything like a respectable enough empire to go forward with. Once that happens though, they are putty in your hands. And I creamed both Thrake and Illyria before marching south. I'm glad to learn that you got to play out history by crushing Thebes. Though I'm into the freeform play, one should of course still be able to act out what actually happened in history.

I have made some tweaks to Makedon for the upgrade, given the AI's relatively poor performance with them in other games. Three main ones: (a) They have a few more resources in their homeland to boost their productivity and research, thereby assisting them into the final era more easily, (b) They now have their own dedicated Peltast unit, The Paeonian Peltast, which is on a parallel with the Thracian one. In cleaning up the upgrade path with this unit, which upgrades to the Argead Bodyguard, it also strengthens Makedon into the late game and (c) I've given the Hetairoi a movement of 4, to bring them on a parallel with the Lydian ability (with their Mercenary Cimmerian) to rapidly expand, which works well, and to speed up for humans what by then should be a foregone conclusion.

- Acquiring those Hegemonic Resources - It should be difficult to finish the job. And they should be expensive to trade for. This is the real man's victory condition, after all. There has however been some tweaking to this victory condition. This has largely been forced by the technicalities of creating the F10 'spaceship' / Hegemonic Struggle progress screen. I was very keen to have a dedicated screen to show players what needed to be built and what has been built. I'm absolutely delighted to tell you that Vuldacon has helped me to achieve this. It looks great. And that's a massive understatement. One thing that needed to happen here though is the number of Fealties needed to be dropped down to 10. Technical reasons. So Fealty of Ionia and Fealty of Thassos have been dropped. So this should make things a bit easier and neater too. The two hotspots of Samos and Thassos remain under focus for players though - they are still part of the League improvements.

- Tribute Points - That's a really good suggestion with the Gymnitos. As they can only be auto-produced and there are many of them, I've eliminated their unit cost altogether to keep down the amount of Tribute points. I've also dropped the advancement points to 1 * cost (the techs are now more expensive). I'm going to have to play through and see how this goes but those settings I posted worked well for the 60K target and I think there's a good balance going on.

- Lydia & Domination - I deliberately made Opium a pre-requisite for the Aesclepion (which allows city growth beyond size 12) and then placed those resources only in Asia Minor. This was to give the Lydians that leg up. But, as you say, it's perfectly possible to balance them out of the domination percentages by having a large number of cities, even if you can't get them beyond 12. It was the introduction of the Cimmerian Mercenary (bit of poetic license!) which really provided the mechanism I kept searching for to get them to expand rapidly and properly threaten that victory condition.

- Roads - This is a bit embarassing, but also perplexing. Vuldacon spotted that I had made a heinous mistake. Don't go telling everyone now, but I didn't check the 'terraform' flag for the two worker units in the game. Ahem. So yeah, I think that explains what you saw with the lack of roads. It doesn't however explain why the AI still go ahead and build mines, trophies / radar towers and irrigate the land!

- League Improvements - As mentioned, I do believe I have now fixed these to be much easier and more realistic to build. They were fresh for v1.3, but I think they're through their teething problems now. I do share your concern about having most of these come after the City Guard is built. I toyed with this for a while. It is important to try and slot them into the right time periods in which they actually arose. So I've generally done it so that, for example, the Peloponnesian League improvements require much earlier improvements to be in place first, including a Granary; the Delian League requires mid-classical era ones like the Boule and The Hellenes League comes mostly after the final era improvements like the City Guard. So I've tried. But I concluded that: (a) by the time the dates these Leagues actually arose come about in game, the map and power base in a player's game would have changed a fair bit anyway, so what the hell, it's unlikely to be spot on, so try and get close enough and (b) it is more fun to have a late game shoot out, as you say. Now we just need players who aren't chicken enough to crank up the difficulty level and see what happens!

Rambuchan · Feb 21, 2012

Takhisis - The thing to do with Corinth is pull those diplomatic strings. This is what they did in history, being the main instigators for Sparta going into the Peloponnesian War against Athens. But, yes, you're absolutely right about searching for wealth out at sea and expanding along the coast.

I wouldn't say Sparta are untouchable. They are certainly a real beast to contend with on land. But, again, diplomacy and alliances are what you need.

- Prodromoi should not be underestimated as they're one of the few fast units available - What the...? Didn't you notice all those foot units with a movement of 2 in the game? Skirmishers, javelin throwers, fast light infantry etc...

- Thucydides' History enabling Espionage is somehow wrong - Well, I needed something to stand in for the espionage function and coudn't think of anything better. So I concluded that, given Thucydides' research in writing his History of The Peloponnesian War and his talks with both sides of that war (admittedly after his retirement) it seemed as good as anything else on offer.

- Besides, having everyone build Thucydides's History seems a bit wrong.- Well, it's a book, not a monument. Same for the other Great Works represented by Small Wonders in the game - Herodotus's Histories, Hypocratic Theory and so on. They are written works which anyone can acquire.

- 11140 Tribute at 466BC. How am I doing? - Loooong way to go. But things will start snowballing.

[EDIT] Actually, I would add: If you're playing as Athens and you've already got a good lead with the Tribute Points and are sitting on many sources of tribute, then you could just sit it out and cruise to victory. You would, however, have to keep an eye on Lydia, the threat from the east going for the domination. You might want to consider some campaigns to take them on and clip their wings, roping your fellow Greeks in with you by using your cash and influence and also thereby keeping them weak in the bargain. That's pretty much the game Athens played in history.

- Spartha should play in red, as many of their units have a red cloack/helmet. - The colours would get confusing down in the Peloponnese. Pink of Argos, purple of Elis and so on. This way they stand out better, which I think is more important than their civ colour maching their shorts.

- I know you don't want to mess with diplo, but the queen of Ithake says 'Greetings Perikles. What do you desire me?' - She is pretty hawt, even if not so eloquent.

- For some reason I have the Argead Dynasty Wonder in the Wonder Screen mentioned as having been built in 0 AD. - No idea why that happened. Hardly a game breaker though.

- There should be a way of ensuring the map doesn't become a patchwork like the current one. - Don't know what you mean, sorry.

- Education and Philosophy for Masonry, Ballistics, Dyes and 272 Talents. Whoo-ee! - That's only a good deal if you were absolutely certain you could build the Temple of Zeus before them. Education and Philosophy are pretty major techs you know. More significant than Masonry or Ballistics, at least in my opinion.

As for the other notes in your game report, these have all been dealt with previously in the thread. And quite recently in most cases.

Looking forward to hearing soon about how you ran home the victory and which one you managed.

Keroro · Feb 21, 2012

One minor note on Tribute Victory. You could potentially have more than 10 tributes by having one tribute set as a small wonder rather than a spaceship part, and requiring that in the city before you could begin another tribute item set as a genuine spacecraft part. So, without looking at the files, the small wonder 'Tribute of the Islands' would be required for the Spacecraft part 'Tribute of Ionia', or something similar. That won't be perfect on the F10 screen but it will work - if it turns out the tributes are otherwise too easy to gain.

Anyway - I am officially in the 21st Century again thankfully. The first thing I do - post on Civfanatics. The second thing I will do - get a pancake recipe. Glad your plans are coming along too Ram. Good luck with it all.

Takhisis · Feb 21, 2012

Rambuchan said:
Didn't you notice all those foot units with a movement of 2 in the game? Skirmishers, javelin throwers, fast light infantry etc...

And all you get as Athens are the Gymnitos and only once every fifteen turns per Palaestra. The skirmishers and such are onyl available to the Northern crapsters.

Rambuchan said:
Well, I needed something to stand in for the espionage function and coudn't think of anything better. So I concluded that, given Thucydides' research in writing his History of The Peloponnesian War and his talks with both sides of that war (admittedly after his retirement) it seemed as good as anything else on offer.

Fair enough.

Rambuchan said:
Loooong way to go. But things will start snowballing.

[EDIT] Actually, I would add: If you're playing as Athens and you've already got a good lead with the Tribute Points and are sitting on many sources of tribute, then you could just sit it out and cruise to victory. You would, however, have to keep an eye on Lydia, the threat from the east going for the domination. You might want to consider some campaigns to take them on and clip their wings, roping your fellow Greeks in with you by using your cash and influence and also thereby keeping them weak in the bargain. That's pretty much the game Athens played in history.

Only a thousand points at best, if the Lydians go berserk or the northerners start accumulating trophies they'll catch up.

Rambuchan said:
Don't know what you mean, sorry.

A patchwork, the Artificial Idiot just builds wherever available and it ends up having dozens of unproductive cities.

Rambuchan said:
- Education and Philosophy for Masonry, Ballistics, Dyes and 272 Talents. Whoo-ee! - That's only a good deal if you were absolutely certain you could build the Temple of Zeus before them. Education and Philosophy are pretty major techs you know. More significant than Masonry or Ballistics, at least in my opinion.

I was about to build the Temple of Zeus in less than half a dozen turns and went straight for Herodotus' History. :cool:

Rambuchan said:
Looking forward to hearing soon about how you ran home the victory and which one you managed.

I think the ebst course of action is to start rallying everyone to fight in wars against someone far off. But the immediate objective would be to conquer the Kykladian barbarians in order to acquire a good naval base, maybe get a Forbidden palace down there and then try and move East against the Dodekanesioi and/or Lydia/Phrygia. Perhaps Phrygia could join in against Lydia.

VERY ironically my best friends are the Spartans to whom I offered a Right of Passage Treaty when I conquered Thebes and Orchomenos so that they could continue unimpeded to wherever they are fighting a war up north. We now sometimes have trades. They could join in in an adventure across the Aegean.

Keroro said:
One minor note on Tribute Victory. You could potentially have more than 10 tributes by having one tribute set as a small wonder rather than a spaceship part, and requiring that in the city before you could begin another tribute item set as a genuine spacecraft part. So, without looking at the files, the small wonder 'Tribute of the Islands' would be required for the Spacecraft part 'Tribute of Ionia', or something similar. That won't be perfect on the F10 screen but it will work - if it turns out the tributes are otherwise too easy to gain.

Interesting idea. Very interesting idea. :hatsoff:

Keroro said:
Anyway - I am officially in the 21st Century again thankfully. The first thing I do - post on Civfanatics. The second thing I will do - get a pancake recipe. Glad your plans are coming along too Ram. Good luck with it all.

Pancakes? What are you, Dutch? Scones are the real food of the gods. Unless the pancakes have sugar and lemon juice on them in which case you can move in whenever you like.

Rambuchan · Feb 25, 2012

Keroro - Yes, that's all possible. You can have as many or as few spaceship parts via that method, or via others. What I'm on about is getting the right number for representing it all graphically in the F10 spaceship / Hegemonic Struggle screen - and doing it clearly and simply, without over complicating things for players. So we've aligned the number of parts with the number that can be clearly represented in the F10 screen.

You're going to love what we've done with it by the way. It's not just a new graphical representation. It's been modded right down to the sound effects in that screen, which add humour, clarity and much other value.

Takhisis - Some notes on your latest post:

- Gymnitos & Athens - Oh yes, you're right. Those southern Greeks do lack the faster units in the early stages. You're probably getting the faster units now though.

- Your Tribute Point tally - Sounds like you've got to build up a few more sources of regular tribute. Others can indeed have a sudden burst. Go for those wines and prophets and the Delian League improvements.

- The 'patchwork' - I see what you mean. There isn't much one can do about that. The AI will always seek to settle free land. The only way of stopping that happening is to eliminate the land and/or settlers. Doing either of those would cripple the game.

- Cyclades - It's a good idea for Athens to take over the Cyclades. They sit on resources that can earn you good tribute and they also have land needed for your Delian League improvements. Just a quick note on history: They aren't barbarians. They are Greeks, who share the same language. And also the Minoan style culture. In fact, at the early part of the scenario's time period, they were ahead of the likes of Athens and Sparta and Thebes and Corinth in terms of wealth and culture.

- Your Alliance with Sparta - It's not all that ironic that you're allied with Sparta. During the Greco-Persian wars these two led the confederation of Greeks against Darius and Xerxes, with Sparta commanding on land and Athens on sea. It was only after Xerxes was defeated and retreated - and Athens grew more and more like the imperialist power the alliance had been formed to repel - that their relationship floundered and turned to rivalry and then war.

Virote_Considon · Feb 25, 2012

Athens and Sparta being on good terms isn't that strange in the slightest.

From the Athenian point of view (as you are playing), there wasn't as far as I can tell much anti-Spartan sentiment which wasn't a direct result of the Peloponnesian War, and quite a streak of Spartaphilia which encompassed a significant enough portion of Athenian society that Spartaphile leaders weren't too uncommon (either side of the P. War, at least). In fact, the Peloponnesian War started when Sparta fabricated tales of Athenian troopss instigating helot revolts - Athenian troops which had been sent there in the first place by a Spartaphile leader to help reconstruction efforts following a huge earthquake.

From the Spartan point of view, though they detested the Athenian way of life, most of the anti-Athenian action was due to realistesque perceptions of the balance of power in the region. Their worst, traditional and most consistent enemy was Argos.

Keroro · Feb 27, 2012

Takhisis said:
Pancakes? What are you, Dutch? Scones are the real food of the gods. Unless the pancakes have sugar and lemon juice on them in which case you can move in whenever you like.

The pancakes did indeed have lemon juice and sugar sprinkled liberally on them. First time I've done them = success.

Rambuchan said:
Keroro - Yes, that's all possible. You can have as many or as few spaceship parts via that method, or via others. What I'm on about is getting the right number for representing it all graphically in the F10 spaceship / Hegemonic Struggle screen - and doing it clearly and simply, without over complicating things for players. So we've aligned the number of parts with the number that can be clearly represented in the F10 screen.

You're going to love what we've done with it by the way. It's not just a new graphical representation. It's been modded right down to the sound effects in that screen, which add humour, clarity and much other value.

Understood - just checking that you knew the possibilities. I will love it whatever you come up with I'm sure! The problem is getting time to play it again in the foreseeable future, which may be tricky. I'll squeeze it into my tight schedule somewhere though I'm sure.

With regard to the patchwork issue - it's actually rather historical. Lots of the southern Greek poleis founded rather random colonies to the north and there was little pattern to it. Their isolated nature make them fairly easy pickings for the barbarian hordes of Thrace, Illyria and Macedon, which is also fairly accurate.

Rambuchan · Feb 27, 2012

Keroro said:
With regard to the patchwork issue - it's actually rather historical. Lots of the southern Greek poleis founded rather random colonies to the north and there was little pattern to it. Their isolated nature make them fairly easy pickings for the barbarian hordes of Thrace, Illyria and Macedon, which is also fairly accurate.

Of course, that too was intentional :cool:

Takhisis · Mar 2, 2012

Well, here's the reports from the last week or so of playing:

Spoiler :

Takhisis · Mar 2, 2012

Tonight's log!

Spoiler :

Hegemon

¡Patria y vida!

The Funky President

Dororo: Ninja Frog

Emperor

¡Patria y vida!

¡Patria y vida!

The Funky President

¡Patria y vida!

Dedicated to Excellence

¡Patria y vida!

The Funky President

The Funky President

Dororo: Ninja Frog

¡Patria y vida!

The Funky President

The Great Dictator

Dororo: Ninja Frog

The Funky President

¡Patria y vida!

¡Patria y vida!

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