Help! Am I Doomed to Stay at Noble Forever?

[Roxlimn]

I think you need to develop more skill in diplomacy. One of the key skills in the higher levels is getting the AIs to fight amongst themselves, not against you.

 

[Arnesson]

I think you need to develop more skill in diplomacy. One of the key skills in the higher levels is getting the AIs to fight amongst themselves, not against you.

I agree Roxlimn. However they tend to want something in return (bribery). When you are behind in tech and already strapped for cash, you have nothing to offer! I once had Hattie be accommodating and "spare this for a friend", but that is th eexception, rather than the rule.

 

[RandomLeader]

I once had Hattie be accommodating and "spare this for a friend", but that is th eexception, rather than the rule.

Talking about exceptions.. in prince-level hatseput herself contacted me and asked "would you accept this as a gift?". Never before and never after. It was fishing or something. Once in a lifetime but soon after that she asked could I assist her with war efforts. Which I couldn't and I declared on her instead

But anyways.. somebody could post a url for diplomacy help. I have huge problems. For me it requires always same religion and no together borders that I get somebody to fight with me or against each other, no matter how I bribe. AI's seem to be friendly together no matter what. Only diplomacy I know is to give everything that AI wants and it helps from annoyed to cautios but not even friendly civs help me during the war.

 

[Arnesson]

Prince-Balanced - Standard size and speed. Playing as Incas.
Tried standard strategies (fund Hinduism, then Mining, BW, Wheel, Writing, (popped AH and Fishing from huts), then traded for Hunting, Sailing, Archery and other religious techs. Went the money route next. Built three cities, wach with a couple of Quecha and Axes (no Archers anywhere!). Added a couple of HA's after I connected to Horses. Sent out Missionaries to convert my meighbours (GK, Qin and Freddie). Competitive until around 1000 AD, then along comes Monty with huge stacks and trashed me. Tried to use Diplomacy but no one seemed to be interested in my offers.

Try #2. Same game. Similar Research path, but knowing I would have access to Iron from my Capital, I changed the research path to include IW. Built 8 Swords and went after Freddie (only close neighbour). Took three cities, including Berlin, before settling for peace and all his cash. Consolidated and built my first city, to reach my Horses. Added another to provide a sea port and get access to Crabs and Fish. About 600 AD, go to war with Washington (other side of Freddie). Take 5 cities from him before he capitulates and becomes a vassal (with only 1 city remaining). Build 2 more cities of my own to fill in gaps and access other resources. By this time I am hurting for cash and my slider is down around 40%. Toku (to the north) declares war on me. Freddie is now a vassal of Hattie and they won't help. Washington is still too weak to be of any use, and I have nothing to offer GK, Qin or Churchill. Aztecs already hate me, so they are of no help. However, a few turns later Hattie changes her mind and joins the fray. Seeing the wind blowing that way, the Aztecs come after Toku as well. I took 3 Japanese cities (mistake - I should have razed them as they were too far from my capital to be of use, so I ended up donating them to Freddie). Beset form all sides, Toku accepted my peace offering for what cash he had. By this time it os 1600 AD and my slider is around 50%, I am consoderably behind in tech, but second on the Power graph. A few centuries later, Toku is still alive and bruised but unbeaten. GK declares war on me. I recruit Hattie and her vassals (Freddie and Washington, who abandoned me the first chance he had, the slut!). Together we puch him back out of my territory (at considerable loss of my Riflemen to his SAM's and Cavalry). At the first opportunity I sue for peace and pick up Liberalism and some cash. Hattie continues the war, razing towns as she goes, so I follow behind with Settlers and land grab. That war ends with GK as a third vassal. Meanwhile Qin has been looking on amused, and become the points leader by a fair margin.

Moving on to the current situation, Hattie has her vassals and is sitting second behind Qin, but won't go to war with him. Churchill is in a remote part of the continent and has remained more or less aloof of all this rowdy behaviour. The Aztecs have declared war on me, despite the fact that I am far stronger and he is on the other side of the continent, so he has a logistics challenge. So far my Tanks, Artillery and Gunships are knocking off his Artillery, Cavalry and Infantry at about a 10-1 ratio. I am 2nd in land, 4th in the standings, 2nd on the Power graph, with my slider at 50% Science and 10% Culture. My citizens are becoming somewhat war weary (despite having Emancipation, Environmentalism, Free Religion and Free Speech). I haven't built a Wonder since early in the game, too busy recruiting troops. I am 3-4 techs behind the leaders, who have already completed most everything.

I don't see a win here, but this is far and away my best result ever in Warlords at this level.

 

[Roxlimn]

The best way to induce the AIs to war on each other is to let them all take separate religions. If you can manage it, don't found a single one. Acquire one from a neighbor and spread it to all your cities. That way, you and your neighbor are more friends than enemies.

Unless you're going for a cultural win, the religion is only a good way to antagonize someone, so you want the AIs to found them. That way, they antagonize each other, rather than you.

 

[Florian]

Adopting someone else's religion doesn't antagonize the other powers any less than adopting one you've discovered yourself. If you can found a religion and spread it around with missionaries so that another civ or two joins you, that's the best situation, because then you have a peaceful bloc AND a fat shrine city.

 

[Roxlimn]

It won't consistently fly under Prince. Almost without exception, any rival civ near you will eventually found a new religion and shift to that, or have another religion spread to him and shift to that.

Joining a neighbor's religion ensures that you have a friend, 100%. If you can help spread that religion, you'll have a bloc. As it happens, you'll often want to backstab this early religion founder, so you're going to have the fat shrine city anyway, whether or not you found a religion.

 

[Florian]

Arnesson,

Not winning is one big step up from losing badly, that's for sure. Now, to win, I think you'll either have to be a much more focused and ruthless warmonger, or let your military lag a little more than you have this last game. I'm usually in the middle of the pack in power (except when I'm about to go on an early conquering tear), but one of the leaders in tech. That's a good place to be unless you're going for a domination win. You're not easy pickings, so only the biggest and/or most aggressive civs will attack you, and when that happens you'll hopefully have a bit of a tech edge with your units, and a tech or two to use to bribe allies to your cause. And you'll definitely have a much better grasp of strategy than the AI does.

 

[Florian]

It won't consistently fly under Prince.

Nothing works all the time.

Almost without exception, any rival civ near you will eventually found a new religion and shift to that, or have another religion spread to him and shift to that.

First, you lessen the chances that a civ will switch to a different foreign religion if you spread it to multiple cities, and especially its capital.

Second, if you found multiple religions, you can greatly lessen the chances of another one spreading to him.

Third, you don't usually want ALL your neighbors to share the same religion. It's better if the guy right next to you is an infidel, and the guy on the other side of him shares your faith. When it comes to war, you can have a heathen sandwich.

 

[Roxlimn]

Florian:

Of course, nothing works all the time, but I find that it's easier to adopt a foreign religion to prevent war against me than it is to found a religion AND spam enough missionaries to force a religion on someone else, as well as to spread it in my cities.

Even when you spread a religion to your neighboring civ, to the extent of 100% penetration, once they found another religion, it's by no means a sure thing that they'll stick to yours. In contrast, they'll often usually just stick to one of their self-founded religions.

Finally, you don't want the guy next to you to be an infidel because it means that he might want to attack you and the other guy may or may not help. It's better if everyone is the same religion and you can just select who to attack at your leisure. If the enemy is in the middle, he'll have border issues with the other civ anyways. If you like, you can always switch religions between acquired ones.

 

[Arnesson]

It won't consistently fly under Prince. Almost without exception, any rival civ near you will eventually found a new religion and shift to that, or have another religion spread to him and shift to that.

Joining a neighbor's religion ensures that you have a friend, 100%. If you can help spread that religion, you'll have a bloc. As it happens, you'll often want to backstab this early religion founder, so you're going to have the fat shrine city anyway, whether or not you found a religion.

After founding Hinduism, I had sent out missionaries and converted Qin and Washington. Qin later picked up Taoism and switched, Washington must have light-bulbed Theocracy, because he changed to Christianity (I later took his holy city). Everyone else was Buddhist or Jewish except Toku, who had none and would not convert to anything. I tried to convert to either of the two via the religious advisor, but the screen informs me that I cannot. (Now Free Religion imposed by UN Decree so no way to change it any longer anyways).

 

[Arnesson]

Arnesson,

Not winning is one big step up from losing badly, that's for sure. Now, to win, I think you'll either have to be a much more focused and ruthless warmonger, or let your military lag a little more than you have this last game. I'm usually in the middle of the pack in power (except when I'm about to go on an early conquering tear), but one of the leaders in tech. That's a good place to be unless you're going for a domination win. You're not easy pickings, so only the biggest and/or most aggressive civs will attack you, and when that happens you'll hopefully have a bit of a tech edge with your units, and a tech or two to use to bribe allies to your cause. And you'll definitely have a much better grasp of strategy than the AI does.

The problem I have right now is that all of the AI's except Monty are vassals of the three leaders. I am at war with Monty (at his request). Assuming that I can eventually take the battles to his turf instead of mine, and am successful in razing most of his cities, perhaps even getting him to capitulate (unlikely) I cannot see myself winning a war with 2 or even 3 AI's at one time.

 

[Arnesson]

Hattie nuked Monty into submission (capitulation), so now there is no one for me to go after other than the three leaders. Plus I am now getting hit with Global Warming on a regular basis as a result. Churchill has Toku as a vassal, Qin has GK as a vassal, and Hattie has Freddy, Washington and now Monty as vassals. Although all three are "Pleased" with me, not one is willing to declare war on one of the others. So much for Diplomacy. All of them have Modern Armour (I am 3 turns away from that tech) in place, along with Stealth Bombers,and Jets. I have no choice but to concede and move on to another game, and be content with a 4th place finish.

 

[vicawoo]

Sounds like you expanded too late. If you want to war early, you want to rapid expand (except for quechua rushes).

40% isn't too bad for science. What's the money route? Guilds?

I'd say, pay more attention to your capital (cottages, happy and health), GP farm (great library if you can, national epic). Keep on top of relations (don't let anyone run away with the tech lead), and make sure you monopolize your tech and trade them for as much as possible when the enemies get close.

Good early economy management are courthouses, currency extra trade routes and selling tech for cash.

 

[Arnesson]

Sounds like you expanded too late. If you want to war early, you want to rapid expand (except for quechua rushes).

40% isn't too bad for science. What's the money route? Guilds?

I'd say, pay more attention to your capital (cottages, happy and health), GP farm (great library if you can, national epic). Keep on top of relations (don't let anyone run away with the tech lead), and make sure you monopolize your tech and trade them for as much as possible when the enemies get close.

Good early economy management are courthouses, currency extra trade routes and selling tech for cash.

I played it both ways. The first time I built three cities, and took a Barbarian town, giving me a total of 5 with my capital. Built the GL and NE in one of them to establish the start of a GP farm. Researched COL to build Markets & Courthouses, then on to Feudalism & Guilds. Science slider was down around 50% and cash flow was terrible. Toku, Monty and GK all; declared war on me within a few turns of one another, and I was toast. I might have managed to stave off one of them, but all three!

The second time was as described above. Rushed Swords and went after Freddie early. Used his cities to expand rather than build my own (although I did settle two for access to Iron and Horses). Then Washington to continue expanding westwars along the north coast. Through to year 2000, I had been either first or second in total land and in the top 3-4 in Troops.

My problem wasn't expansion so much as it was that the Hattie had Freddie, Churchill had Toku, and Qin had Ghenghis as vassals. Going after one of the leaders menat taking on the vassal as well, and I simply was not powerful enough to do that. The second issue was that, in building up my troops, I fell behind on Wonders and Technology.

Result is that I either lose because I am too weak, or I lose because building troops enough to counter the leaders causes my research to fall behind.

 

[vicawoo]

In my experience, markets and grocers aren't important for all but one or two cities. If all your cities (except maybe the capital and GP farm) are building nothing but granaries, barracks, and units, you're troop count should be high enough.

If you can, try to have them fight each other (although of equal strength, so they don't conquer each other), keep their hands full.

 

[Arnesson]

In my experience, markets and grocers aren't important for all but one or two cities. If all your cities (except maybe the capital and GP farm) are building nothing but granaries, barracks, and units, you're troop count should be high enough.

If you can, try to have them fight each other (although of equal strength, so they don't conquer each other), keep their hands full.

I have found the opposite to be true. No, they don't add a great deal to the economy (25% each towards upkeep) but they do add +1 to Happiness and Health (assuming that you have the necessary resources). Typically I do have problems with red & green faces in the mid-game, after I get out of Slavery and before Emancipation and Environmentalism civics are available.

As mentioned above, my biggest problem with Diplomacy is that, after falling behind on tech, and without heaps of cash on hand, I have nothing to use as bribery to motivate wars between AI's. Their being "pleased" with you is simply not enough for them to cooperate.

 

[vicawoo]

Production cities are usually too limited by food and mines to grow too large, so size isn't such a big deal until replaceable parts.
If you're running food surpluses, just run scientists or other specialists, and you have no more growth problems.
Your capital (or other super science cities) and GP farm are the only cities where size is really important.
Mid game, you start with 4 health, hopefully you have +2-3 from forests/fresh water, you probably have a grain resource (+2 with granary), fish or animal resource (+1-2) and maybe a calendar resource. So that's 9-13 health, add an aqueduct if needed for 2 more. Most resource cities don't get that many grassland tiles.
Happiness, you can run hereditary rule, and get breaks from calendar resource, or drama, and occasionally gems with another 1 from a forge. Whales are hard to get, ivory and fur are usually mutually exclusive.
Furthermore, guilds is pretty out of the way tech-wise. On prince, you can easily mass swordsmen and a few catapults and grab a few cities before they get longbows.

Also, try beelining techs, and let the AI get the feudalism/theology etc. techs. You'll have alphabet for awhile so once you get civil service, trade code of laws for other stuff, repeat.

 

[Arnesson]

Production cities are usually too limited by food and mines to grow too large, so size isn't such a big deal until replaceable parts.
If you're running food surpluses, just run scientists or other specialists, and you have no more growth problems.
Your capital (or other super science cities) and GP farm are the only cities where size is really important.
Mid game, you start with 4 health, hopefully you have +2-3 from forests/fresh water, you probably have a grain resource (+2 with granary), fish or animal resource (+1-2) and maybe a calendar resource. So that's 9-13 health, add an aqueduct if needed for 2 more. Most resource cities don't get that many grassland tiles.
Happiness, you can run hereditary rule, and get breaks from calendar resource, or drama, and occasionally gems with another 1 from a forge. Whales are hard to get, ivory and fur are usually mutually exclusive.
Furthermore, guilds is pretty out of the way tech-wise. On prince, you can easily mass swordsmen and a few catapults and grab a few cities before they get longbows.

Also, try beelining techs, and let the AI get the feudalism/theology etc. techs. You'll have alphabet for awhile so once you get civil service, trade code of laws for other stuff, repeat.

Thanks for the advice. There are a couple of things you mention that I already attempt to do. I generally chase Alphabet as soon as I have BW and AH, along with any of the "smaller" techs I need for developing resources (Hunting, Fishing, etc.). I generally rely on Warriors and Chariots for defence. If no Copper handy, I will research IW first before Alphabet. Next I trade for the religious techs, then go after Literature to build the GL, beeline COL to build Courthouses, CS, Construction, etc. to work my way up to Maces. Meanwhile building up Swords (or Praetorians), HA's, Cats and a few Spears (for defending my towns against AI Elephants and HA's). Depending on the situation, I then either target Paper & Philosophy on my way to Education & Liberalism, or Guilds, Banking, Nationalism, Gunpowder, Cavalry. I seldom bother with Archers or Trebs Naturally I look for trades along the way in order to grab Feudalism, Compass, Theology and the like from AI's (preferably from those lower in the points table, since they usually want to make a profit on these deals).

No matter how I try to plan things, my Capital usually ends up being my GP Farm/Science City. I do use the "Stop Growth" toggle on Production cities to try to control happiness & health in them. Since REXing always creates cash flow problems, I tend to build a Barracks & Stable in every city, so that they can produce troops, as well as a Market & Bank in every city, to try to keep the gold coming in. Obviously negotiate trade routes for spare resources.

I NEVER use GP's for a Golden Age. They either lighbulb techs, build their Academies, Shrines, etc. or join the city as Specialists. Engineers usually end up being used on Wonders, GM's get converted to gold.

I don't go after many Wonders. The GL as already mentioned, along with the Univ of Sankore if possible. If I have Stone, I sometimes try for the Pyramids (if I fail, the gold comes in handy for upgrading units; if I get it, I can switch to Representation early). Later in the game, the SofL, TG Dam and Eiffel Tower (although I have yet to reach that point in any game I have played past Noble level in the Warlords expansion).

These tactics have always served me well. To Monarch in the Vanilla and through to Noble in Warlords. But now (Prince) they consistently fail.

 

[Roxlimn]

Your experience simply is telling you what I've been saying all along, and what many high level players also practice - don't found religions, OR found them all yourself.

Once the AI gets a new religion, he'll switch to it, and your missionaries will not have had as much of the desired effect, diplomatically. What you want is a similar religion between you and your immediate neighbor, and the surest way to do that is to let him found his own religion and then switch to it.

One of the things you'll learn when you avoid founding religions is how to manage happiness issues without temples. If you can learn that, you'll have picked up new lessons and weapons you can use for all your games, which will make you a better player.