[BTS] Help and advice with progress

Simply "attack" them with any actual military unit. Workers and Settlers don't have any :strength:, they can't fight. If they're attacked by a military unit they will be automatically captured by that unit (and converted into a Worker, if you captured a Settler). There is a reason why AIs prefer to keep a military unit or two assigned to their workers, it's so that they can't get sniped right from the borders.
 
Thank you @5tephen

I went ahead and played till turn 127/500 (AD 300). Boy was it exhilarating...

After decimating Spain, I continued my battle march southwards, taking out 3 of Genghis Khan's cities.

  1. To be honest, I think I am probably just winging it. My combat/war techniques are, I feel, not very sound. I just select all units and right click on the city to attack it. I now know I could have bombarded the cities beforehand. Could you kindly take a look at my game save and comment on how I should improve my combat?
  2. Speaking of war, should I now build some barracks? I have not seen it mentioned, so it's not a good move?
  3. I'm seeing a Great General popping out - how do I exploit this unit?
  4. I also see a Great Prophet in progress in my captured city of Madrid - what does it do and how do I make use of it?
  5. What do you build in your captured cities after warrior? I plan on doing the Granary > Library.
  6. System informs me of potential trading opportunities - how do you go about doing this?
  7. Is this the time to consider religion as a factor in the game? How do I apply this to my current gameplay?
I feel that things are becoming more than a handful at this point with so many things to juggle and so many cities to manage that the true complexity of the game is starting to surface. Hope you will guide me along, thanks so much.
 

Attachments

  • jman9100 AD-0300.CivBeyondSwordSave
    132.3 KB · Views: 24
Last edited:
Can't check save right now, but:
1. Generally speaking, make sure you've got a good mix of attackers and siege (too few attackers and you can't take cities, too few siege units and bombarding takes forever/top defenders don't get weakened enough), try to attack wherever your enemy is most vulnerable (out in the open, or if you've got tons of City Raider, you can let an AI reinforce a weakened city just to pick off units when they're getting little to no defensive bonus and you're getting a strong offensive bonus), and don't wait too long for the perfect moment to attack.

2. Quick explanation: A Great General is a special type of unit that you generate as your military units gain xp in battle (although fights against Barbarian units don't count IIRC). They have three uses, one of which isn't unlocked until around halfway through the tech tree: First, they can be attached to one or more units, which evenly spreads 20xp across the entire group, and gives one of those units (your choice) the "lead by Warlord" promotion. These Warlord units gets access to special promotions, can be upgraded for free, and will print a global message when they die in combat. Second, you can settle them in a city as a permanent specialist, which gives every military unit build in that city an extra +2xp. Note that this effect stacks if you settle multiple GG in a single city, but this isn't necessarily optimal in terms of improving your military. Could be, but not necessarily. Third, with the Military Science tech, you can have them construct a Military Academy in a city, which gives that city a +100% :hammers: (IIRC?) bonus when building military units. This third option, like I said, won't be available for a long while, and you can easily win games before ever getting the tech that unlocks them, so don't worry about that one for right now. Also don't worry about saving a Great General for that purpose - better to use the units now than to get a better use out of them 100+ turns from now.

Usually the best use of a GG unit is to attach it to a single (ideally 2:move:) unit, to give it the full +20xp boost, and make it into a Great Medic. Give this unit Combat 1 -> Medic 1 -> Medic 2 -> Medic 3 -> Morale (+1:move:) if it's available. This gives you a unit which will significantly increase the speed at which other units within the same/adjacent tiles as the GG medic will heal, allowing you to resume your offensive campaign that much faster. Other common uses include attaching them to a number of Siege units such that you can upgrade them a level for another level of City Raider or the improved bombardment promotion (Accuracy?), settling them in a city so that the city can pump out level 3 units with only a Barracks, or attaching them to a boat or two to get Navigation on water transports.

Personally I highly recommend creating a Great Medic as your first Great General use, as they are extremely useful units.

3. A Great Prophet is a Great Person, a type of unit that you generate with Great People Points, which the game denotes with the :gp: icon. There's like a half-dozen different kinds of Great People (the Great General, for reference, is technically not a Great Person, though they share some similarities) which all have different uses/effects, and there's a lot to say about them regarding how they can be used to "lightbulb" (or just "bulb", for short) technologies based on what technologies you already possess due to each Great Person's individual priority table.

For now I wouldn't worry too much about them. They're a key aspect of higher level gameplay, but if you're still in the middle of warring right now I'd suggest you maintain your focus on that and take a closer look at great people later. If you do eventually end up with a Great Prophet I would recommend moving him over to Izzy's Holy City and using the GP to build a Shrine, which for Christianity is the Church of Nativity (IIRC). Shrines, in short, a special religious buildings that only a Great Prophet can construct, and only in a holy city. They're great to take, as they can be very powerful and lucrative buildings if properly invested into, but for the same reason they're not great to construct yourself because, as I said, it takes a great deal of investment to get the most out of them.

4. Don't bother with Warriors in newly captured cities, they should focus on rebuilding their infrastructure ASAP so they can start to contribute to your empire. Speaking of which, Granary -> Library is a very solid choice for what to build in them.

5. Trading is a part of diplomacy, and honestly one of the biggest parts of one of the biggest aspects of the game. General rules are to trade for what you need in return for what the AIs won't get much use out of, ideally. In terms of resources, same deal: Get what you need, give away what people don't benefit from (as much).

6. Religion becomes a factor once other AIs start adopting religions and religious blocks begin to form. If there's a large block of one particular religion, yes, go ahead and adopt that religion. Sharing a religion makes AIs better disposed towards you, gives a bit of happiness to cities that have that religion in them, and allows you to make use of the various Religious civics (most of which requires you to be running a state religion to get the most out of it). Conversely, if there's a religious divide on the board than don't adopt a religion, and especially do not adopt a religion that no one else is following! Being a heathen makes AIs dislike you, straight-up hate you in some cases, and the bonuses of running religious civics and getting some extra happy is not worth having two-third of the world hate your guts. That's not to say there aren't situations where running minority religions or even running your own self-founded religion isn't worth the risk, but generally speaking, don't paint a target on your back if you can help it.
 
Agree with @AcaMetis

I'll try and look at your save tonight but time is a bit short and might be later in the week - screenshots can make things quicker sometimes if you can provide some please?

Do you know how to see your combat odds? Just be aware if selecting your whole stack that the odds of your best unit will show up - could be the rest of the stack has awful odds and you lose the whole lot. Careful with gambling too - 60% chance to win is 40% chance you lose your unit. Losing a few units is expected but heavy losses only in certain circumstances.

Barracks are good in cities that will build a few troops. Granaries should go in almost every city but after that be aware building a building costs time you could be doing something else - would you rather have a promoted axeman later or 2 axemen sooner? Depends on the situation. Libraries are good.

Agree with AcaMetis Great General should go on a chariot and get combat 1, followed by medic 1, 2 and 3 - I would build this unit somewhere with a barracks so it gets its first promotion free.

Warrior in captured cities probably wasn't great advice on my behalf. Better than size 1 workers but granary probably better. Saying that, you do benefit from a unit there and at the time it looked better for your axes to move forward rather than 1 stay as a defender and warriors are cheap for this job.

My feeling last night was that I'd just keep building units in all your cities rather than buildings (granary is a good exception) as I think you could roll through the whole map with what you've got. Depends a bit on how wars are going though.

Trade is complex and relates strongly to diplomacy. For now enter the F4 screen, go to 'at a glance', hover over each leader and see if anyone has a 'worst enemy' (WE) - if you have Genghis Khan on the ropes, the biggest remaining war monger is Montezuma and I would try to avoid upsetting him so don't trade with his WE.

Religion is probably of most use to you currently for diplomacy. You can't be friends with everyone and will learn when to choose your friends but be aware you can make enemies quickly by choosing a different religion to someone else.

Diplomacy is so important as you progress in this game but a massive subject.

Be aware we've strayed far from doing this perfectly in the interests of it progressing a bit quicker and remaining fun. When you've finished this game try rereading the OldDude thread and consider watching a YouTube video of LainCiv4Deity.
 
Hmmm...

Militarily successful but your empire needs a fair bit of rebuilding. Well done on the wars!

Looking at your unit losses I suspect bombarding some of those cities might have been helpful.

The biggest mistake I made when starting out with this game was building all the buildings - most aren't helpful. Look very carefully at where my mouse is hovering over the happy faces - New York is building an 80 hammer colosseum when it would gain more happiness by building a 35 hammer axeman and keeping the axeman as a garrison for military police - the warrior that was in New York providing happiness should never have left. Same situation but worse in Seville. See that next to New York it says '6' meaning size 6 - it should have citizens available to work 6 tiles but just above the map in the bottom right corner are 4 unhappy citizens that are refusing to work their tiles - 2 would go back to work immediately if you had a military unit in the city. Some unhappy will disappear when you make peace with Genghis.

Spoiler Unhappy New York :
Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG


Worker priorities are improve food resources, improve special tiles, chop forests, build cottages, everything else - in that order. I strongly advise to stop building so many farms and mines which are on the whole not useful tiles. This seems contradictory to 'food is king' but the reason food is king is to enable rapid city growth to work good tiles, whip and use specialists. A floodplains farm or two in a city without much other food is good, otherwise floodplains are great for cottages. Grassland or plains farms just aren't that good.

Try and shuffle your workers about so that each new city is getting some attention - Bactrian is size 5 and working only unimproved tiles.

I think you're trying to fogbust with your axes but by the time you have axes it's probably not worth it and it's not quite working. Pressing 'Alt+x' in BUG gets up a handy city mapping tool - if you imagine the corners aren't missing, the area around your axemen in the screenshot is fogbusted. The western most one isn't covering any tiles your city couldn't see anyway apart from coast but this is unimportant as you don't have coastal cities. The warrior to the east of this overlaps with it and the axe in the far east is missing a bunch of tiles between this and the warrior and tiles 2N of your border. The tiles above your eastern axe are ice - units cannot go on the ice so barbs cannot spawn there.

Spoiler Fogbusting :
Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG


You're in a dominant position in your game but probably do need to rebuild now. I'd be tempted to take that last warrior 1NW of Karakorum and then ask Genghis to do a deal - DON'T ask him to 'end this war and declare peace' or you won't get any techs. At the moment he will offer you iron working which you really need to start chopping down some jungle and improving Old Sarai and Barcelona. On this level I don't know how much it matters but it might be good practice not to take archery in this deal as it won't be useful to you and AIs count up how many techs you've got for free and stop trading with you at some point 'we fear you are becoming too advanced' WFYABTA.

Spoiler Peace with Genghis :
Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG


Note your worker 2S of Beshbalik is taking a big and unnecessary risk. If Genghis has a 2 move unit on the tile 2S1W of this he can take this unit. Workers and settlers are expensive units - try really hard not to risk losing them.
Spoiler Worker :
Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG


Before peace with Genghis though why not slow down your enemies a bit...

Spoiler Montezuma vs Genghis? :
Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG


Observe that Victoria who is right on your border isn't that happy with you. Maybe she's your next target?

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG



You're nearly at Caste System so might as well finish it but after that I would tech along the route to monarchy as advised yesterday - maybe you could then swap monarchy for caste system - monarchy will get you +1 happy in all your cities if you use it to switch to 'Hereditary rule.'

I've played a bit from yesterday's save just so you can compare the tiles I work, etc. with your save. I've been a bit sloppy and it's not ideal but I think some key things are I've traded technologies around fairly extensively to get iron working and monarchy (I researched mysticism, meditation and priesthood myself as trading for really cheap techs isn't good) to improve my happy situation and to clear the jungle to make Barcelona useful. I've not concentrated on my city tiles or whipping enough but if you see in the screenshot of Madrid that the catapult has 26 hammers invested so could only have a one pop whip. I've queued an axe in front of it which I'm making sure not to get more than 4 hammers invested in it. This means next turn I will whip the axe for 29 hammers overflow which will go into my catapult so that in 2 turns time I have an axe and a catapult.

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

[/SPOLIER]
 
Last edited:
Sorry for triple post but otherwise won't get images up.

Not sure about my attack on London as I misclicked and let the whole stack go in after a few single units but I think this save is OK. Plenty of errors where I lost concentration. I've added to your axes and built catapults. I should have built some spears in case I get attacked by mounted. My supply line of catapults is in full swing - using the catapults I don't expect to lose any axemen attacking Victoria and I will replenish the catapults I lose allowing me to move straight onto Genghis whom I have bribed to attack Willem to stop Genghis backstabbing me whilst I'm concentrating on Victoria. Note I'm being careful not to let unguarded catapults get near Victoria's borders where she might destroy them.

I bombarded London before attacking to lower my combat odds.

Spoiler :
I give each of my catapults city raider - with the crossed swords
Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG


Spoiler :
The attack odds for the first catapult are poor but remember it damages multiple units at a time
Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG


Spoiler :
Attack odds for my axeman before attacking the city with another catapult
Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG


Spoiler :
Attack odds for the same axeman after attacking the city with an axe - probably still not quite good enough - that's a 1 in 8 chance I lose that axe, I'd be happier with 95%+ winning odds - I have plenty more catapults on the way but less axes.
Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG


Hope all this is useful.

Were I to continue my save I would be trading aesthetics for horseback riding so I could build elephants after taking Victoria's ivory city. I'd build granaries and maybe barracks in my new cities and otherwise nothing but catapults and a few elephants in all my cities and run my army over the whole map.

In your save, after peace with Genghis I would definitely improve the cities with no improved tiles such as Barcelona. I'd be tempted to just rebuild the army for 10 turns or so and attack Victoria. If you don't know what to build in a city a good bet is 'build wealth' as this reduces your loss of gold each turn so you can keep your research slider at 100%. 'Build research' is less good once you can build wealth.
 

Attachments

  • jman9100 AD-0100.CivBeyondSwordSave
    117.2 KB · Views: 25
Last edited:
Thanks so much @5tephen

I think you're trying to fogbust with your axes but by the time you have axes it's probably not worth it and it's not quite working. Pressing 'Alt+x' in BUG gets up a handy city mapping tool - if you imagine the corners aren't missing, the area around your axemen in the screenshot is fogbusted. The western most one isn't covering any tiles your city couldn't see anyway apart from coast but this is unimportant as you don't have coastal cities. The warrior to the east of this overlaps with it and the axe in the far east is missing a bunch of tiles between this and the warrior and tiles 2N of your border. The tiles above your eastern axe are ice - units cannot go on the ice so barbs cannot spawn there.

are you saying the red circled area (attached pic) is where Barbs will spawn? Oh, I am under the impression the fog is those completely black area on the map where you can't see sh*t (pardon the language).
 

Attachments

  • Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG
    586.6 KB · Views: 39
The biggest mistake I made when starting out with this game was building all the buildings - most aren't helpful. Look very carefully at where my mouse is hovering over the happy faces - New York is building an 80 hammer colosseum when it would gain more happiness by building a 35 hammer axeman and keeping the axeman as a garrison for military police - the warrior that was in New York providing happiness should never have left. Same situation but worse in Seville. See that next to New York it says '6' meaning size 6 - it should have citizens available to work 6 tiles but just above the map in the bottom right corner are 4 unhappy citizens that are refusing to work their tiles - 2 would go back to work immediately if you had a military unit in the city. Some unhappy will disappear when you make peace with Genghis.

My mistake. Great pointer there. Thanks. I really should be checking out each and every city (10 of them!) before each turn ends.
 
Observe that Victoria who is right on your border isn't that happy with you. Maybe she's your next target?

I should really try to use these advisor screens more. Now that you showed me, I will be mindful to take advantage of this. Sometimes, it really takes someone to actually show you how it's done. thank you.
 
Before peace with Genghis though why not slow down your enemies a bit...

This is a really creative move, wow! How do you actually execute this? Is this what they call "vassal" that I have heard so much about? Can you expound on this in more granular detail? Wow...
 
if you see in the screenshot of Madrid that the catapult has 26 hammers invested so could only have a one pop whip. I've queued an axe in front of it which I'm making sure not to get more than 4 hammers invested in it. This means next turn I will whip the axe for 29 hammers overflow which will go into my catapult so that in 2 turns time I have an axe and a catapult.

Ok, I lost you there.
 
You asked me in a PM how I got so many units. I'll try and address this at a later point when I have more time.

My mistake. Great pointer there. Thanks. I really should be checking out each and every city (10 of them!) before each turn ends.
You definitely should do this. If you enter a city screen and press the left or right arrow you can cycle through your cities and until you are really confident what each one is doing for a given turn I advise doing this every turn.

are you saying the red circled area (attached pic) is where Barbs will spawn?
Sort of. I've attached an image of where they can spawn. Only submarines can go on the ice tiles so don't worry about these. Black arrows are where I'd move your units.
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0001.png


I should really try to use these advisor screens more. Now that you showed me, I will be mindful to take advantage of this. Sometimes, it really takes someone to actually show you how it's done. thank you.
Make sure to hover your mouse over every part of the screen without moving for a few seconds - there is a load of hidden advice that will come up when you do this.

This is a really creative move, wow! How do you actually execute this? Is this what they call "vassal" that I have heard so much about? Can you expound on this in more granular detail? Wow...
Just open whichever leader you would like to speak to and click on 'we would like to make a trade proposal' and ask what you want. If something's not available e.g. war with Genghis you can hover your mouse over it to find out why e.g. 'we would have nothing to gain.' If you get agreement for a trade proposal it's always worth redoing it with offering whatever they wanted and asking 'what will you give me for this?' or selecting what you want off of them and asking 'what do you want for this?' - you'll often find you can get a better deal than you initially thought.
This is not a vassal - vassals are unlocked with the feudalism tech and are when another civ subjugates itself to you or another AI either through military conquest or sometimes via a peaceful request. The diplomatic consequences and mechanics of vassals is a big topic.

I saw that you also went on the Aesthetics > Literature research path - why?
Good observation. The AI generally doesn't go this route so you can often trade aesthetics for a few good techs with different AIs. The main reason in your game was that given that you have marble, I was going to build the 'heroic epic' in one of your high production cities which gives a 100% boost to military unit production in that city - I would then constantly and exclusively build military units in that city until the end of the game.

Ok, I lost you there.
This is really, really important.
For every 1 population you whip, you create 30 hammers.
You cannot whip more population than needed to finish the build - so if there are 15 hammers remaining you can only whip 1 population into the build.
1 population=30 hammers, 2 population=60 hammers, 3 population=90 hammers, etc..
Any hammers in excess of what was needed to complete the unit or building on a given turn are carried over to the next build AKA 'overflow.' Overflow is limited to the value of whatever you were building - warrior costs 15 hammers so maximum overflow from whipping a warrior is 15 hammers (N.B. don't whip warriors except in extremis.)
So to maximise overflow when building an axeman we need to be aware that it costs 35 hammers.
There is a severe penalty for whipping on turn 0 of a build so we try and avoid this.
We want to whip 2 population (60 hammers) into the axeman so we must make sure it still costs more than 30 hammers (1 population) by the time that we want to whip it 35 hammers total - 31 hammers (maximum amount we would want to invest in this build) = 4 hammers.
Once we know we can only invest 4 hammers into the axeman to be able to achieve a 2 pop whip we need to juggle the city tiles to achieve this.
If going for a whipping strategy, mines are not a great choice and the city should prioritise tiles that help with growth as we want to whip and then grow back to our best tiles ASAP +/- be in an optimal position to whip again.
Please let me know if this explanation is not clear - it's a really important concept that will impede your progress if you don't understand it.
 
Last edited:
I read and re-read those posts from @lymond before I got to immortal.

I haven't read them again now but it's worth knowing that if you press 'ctrl' and click on a build option this will go to the front of a city's queue. If you press 'Shft' it will go to the back of the queue. If you remove something in the queue and add it back the hammers invested in it remain. Hammers in units do start to get lost after 10T and after 50T for buildings. You can use this to move items around in the queue to maximise whipping potential.
 
We want to whip 2 population (60 hammers) into the axeman so we must make sure it still costs more than 30 hammers (1 population) by the time that we want to whip it 35 hammers total - 31 hammers (maximum amount we would want to invest in this build) = 4 hammers.
Once we know we can only invest 4 hammers into the axeman to be able to achieve a 2 pop whip we need to juggle the city tiles to achieve this.
If going for a whipping strategy, mines are not a great choice and the city should prioritise tiles that help with growth as we want to whip and then grow back to our best tiles ASAP +/- be in an optimal position to whip again.
Please let me know if this explanation is not clear - it's a really important concept that will impede your progress if you don't understand it.

It takes me a while to wrap my head around this. Basically, you want to barely get over the threshold of 30H per whip to take advantage of overflow Hammers. So that a unit with 31H to completion will require 2 whips instead of 1. Am I right? Who could have known CIV4 is a math game in disguise.
 
It takes me a while to wrap my head around this. Basically, you want to barely get over the threshold of 30H per whip to take advantage of overflow Hammers. So that a unit with 31H to completion will require 2 whips instead of 1. Am I right? Who could have known CIV4 is a math game in disguise.
So that a unit with more than 1 pop worth of :hammers: remaining can be 2-pop whipped for massive overflow, yes. There are ways to increase how many hammers each pop whipped is worth later, so rest assured, the math has only just begun :mwaha:.
 
@guyyee good stuff from 5teph on whipping. Years ago I put together some examples I wrote up for others into one post, that I will link here:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/going-from-noble-tooo.468987/#post-11671673

Basic stuff, but each link in that post provides an example. Whip and granary stuff is even more complex, but getting this basic understanding down can help tremendously with army build up or simply expansion.

I went through them all, example 1 and 3 is good. example 2 a little hard to follow.

Are you able to craft a few scenario saves to test new players if they can find good whipping opportunities, much like chess puzzles/drills?
 
Part of the reason we do this is that it's very efficient, you often get out two units in two turns. But it's also because each time you whip, no matter for how many population points, you get 1 :mad: face and the whip counter increases by 10. So it's not ideal to whip for 1 population point. You reduce the pop by 1, but also increase the anger by 1. Especially when the city has a low happy cap, this is bad, because you'll quickly regrow into unhappiness. Therefore it's better to whip 2-3 pops, and then you have more time to regrow before going into unhappiness again. And after 10 turns, the counter has been reset (assuming the city didn't already have some beforehand).

Hopefully this didn't just muddy the water even more. As we keep saying, it's a very complex and deep game :)
 
I went through them all, example 1 and 3 is good. example 2 a little hard to follow.

2 may be a little harder to follow since I used saves as oppposed to screenshots for the example, but the math is there on Library whip that should be easy to understand. If you have specific points that need clarification though, please let me know.

Are you able to craft a few scenario saves to test new players if they can find good whipping opportunities, much like chess puzzles/drills?

Interesting, an old forum member named kossin worked up some small micro challenges years ago, a few of which dealt with whipping mechanics. I'll see if I can dig them up somewhere. As for doing some of those myself, I will if I have that time but would not bank on it. For now, I would look at opportunities to practice these concepts in your games. Really look at the information that the city provides you. Understand the food and production bars, and tooltips.

edit: Okay, I found a couple of kossin's micro challengers. The link below is to the "solutions" post of the first one:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/micro-challenge.498592/page-2#post-12537600

You need to go to the top of that thread for the info on that challenge, but I linked directly to that post as it links to the next challenge. I'll see if I can find some more. The cool thing is you can compare to his solution and to what others have done and keep practicing. There all basically short exercises. And feel free to discuss here any questions you have about the concepts.

edit: Okay! Even Better! I was able to find kossin's central thread for the micro challenge (I recalled there was one). Located here:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/micro-challenge-central.499254/

Too bad the screenshots are dead, but everything is explained - goals/rules/solution. I can't remember what each one was, but if you do them and have questions I will review. Again, don't be hesitant to retry each challenge over and over until the concept sinks it.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom