Dirk1302
Deity
Yes and these don't whip so well 
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Help on Immortal -Washington - American
- Thread starter Gumbolt
- Start date
Yes and these don't whip so well
So the best whips early on are workers, settlers. (Not wonders) Essentially you are using huge food surpluses to create large production with settlers. Then turning the fast growth into hammers.
The OR/forge thing is an interesting extention on whipping. I will be sure to test these ideas in future games.
How I got this far and didn't even understand whipping is a mystery. Hopefully those reading this will grasp it. It has been an education. it also brings a new level to micromanagement.
I fully understand about SGOTM. You would be most welcome in any future team we put together. You have a great grasp on the game concepts.
If you have 1/2 price granaries, you probably also have cheap workers.
Just to clear this up in my mind. The overflow is constant. The bonus from org and forges is mainly on what the overflow brings to the next build. 25% bonus on worker production won't change the whipping point in terms of builds. IE less 31 from completion of build.
So I put 69 hammers into settler. 2 pop whip giving 60 hammers. 31 into settler. Giving 29 hammer overflow.
Now with org and a forge and double production say on a granary this will give 29*2 plus 14 base production from 50% bonus from traits and the forge. So a possible 72 hammers into a granary. I am assuming the game rounds the figures down.
whats a navy
Prince
Wow, I've learned a lot from this thread that I never knew about whipping and I wonder how I went on with out this information before. Its been really educational but here's a question, If I whip a cheap library with 29
invested that's a 120 whip so would I get a 61 hammer overflow into my wonder without multipliers? And would that make a wonder with the required resource (i.e. Oracle with marble) a 122 overflow? It seems game breaking as I think about it.
A creative leader with marble could two pop whip a library at 29 and get 122 hammers: overflow, just like that, into Great Library.
If all this is true I can't thank you guys enough for this knowledge. Let's hope its not enough to put me over the hump and beat deity.
invested that's a 120 whip so would I get a 61 hammer overflow into my wonder without multipliers? And would that make a wonder with the required resource (i.e. Oracle with marble) a 122 overflow? It seems game breaking as I think about it.A creative leader with marble could two pop whip a library at 29
and get 122 hammers: overflow, just like that, into Great Library. If all this is true I can't thank you guys enough for this knowledge. Let's hope its not enough to put me over the hump and beat deity
.yanner39
Emperor
This overflow stuff is extremely interesting and worth the micro.
How does the happy cap factor in? So for example, say an early happy cap of 5. Would you grow until you reach size 4, start building the wonder, say the Great Lighthouse. How many hammers do you put until the wonder before switching to the settler or worker? Just before growing to pop 5?
Or....would you grow into unhappyness with the wonder, then start a settler (I believe unhappy citizens don't eat food when building a settler/worker) then 2 pop whip the settler, let the city grow again, rise and repeat?
Anyways, thank you for these tips.
How does the happy cap factor in? So for example, say an early happy cap of 5. Would you grow until you reach size 4, start building the wonder, say the Great Lighthouse. How many hammers do you put until the wonder before switching to the settler or worker? Just before growing to pop 5?
Or....would you grow into unhappyness with the wonder, then start a settler (I believe unhappy citizens don't eat food when building a settler/worker) then 2 pop whip the settler, let the city grow again, rise and repeat?
Anyways, thank you for these tips.
Wow, I've learned a lot from this thread that I never knew about whipping and I wonder how I went on with out this information before. Its been really educational but here's a question, If I whip a cheap library with 29
A creative leader with marble could two pop whip a library at 29
If all this is true I can't thank you guys enough for this knowledge. Let's hope its not enough to put me over the hump and beat deity
I think this is incorrect as the whip from pop is havled on test game I just ran. Only took away 1 pop from city with 28 hammers invested. The bonus from forge and civic had no effect. It gave just 9 (edit) hammers over flow. Org and forge had no impact from what i could see.
Yes, that's right. Plus you'll also have base production on the whip turn (min 1hpt from city tile, likely more). One thing to note is that you can't OF more base hammers than the whipped item is worth.
No, you can only get 29 base hammers in whip OF. Multipliers are applied when you invest base hammers into the build which is multiplied.here's a question, If I whip a cheap library with 29
Whipping from 4 to 2 is the best, because:
a) Let's you consistently stay under happy cap.
b) Each pop point costs more to grow, so whips are most efficient at low pop.
whats a navy
Prince
A cheap library I thought was 100% hammer production so therefore every one pop of whip is 60 hammers. Does the whip not go through multipliers because I swear it did, of course I'm not a huge whip fan so I'm not totally sure.A library costs 90 hammers. If you put 29 hammers in this would require a 3 pop whip and a city of size 5. So yes a base hammer of 90 from whip. What you are saying is the 3 pop whips hammers invested in the library get doubled.
So 61 to complete library. Of which 31 of that comes from the 90 chop. Leaving an over flow 59 before any bonuses.
Which means if you are org/ forge I assume the hammers would also gain this bonus too when invested in the build.
The numbers are starting to get complicated.
Edit: I saw bbp's post. Just goes to show I'm a total whip novice.
I had no idea how it worked till today. Actually my overflow on Willem Library was just 9 hammers. Still it shaved 4 turns off the build too for cost of 1 pop.
I think it is better to overflow into double speed builds rather than whip them. A matter for debate no doubt.
Just a thought if you whip a warrior you in effect will lose hammers as you will never get more than the build value of the a warrior.
So 1 hammer invested but with the overflow of 30 14 goes to warrior but you will only get back 15 hammer overflow or less as it won't give you above 15 hammers.
Am i right in thinking whipping no longer gives overflow gold from lost hammers above the base build?
BBP - Is it wise top avoid any hammers per turn after you whip an item if you already know you have reach the max 30 hammer overflow.
So if I have a base production of 14 on my city when I whip it at 69 how does this affect my overflow? Would I be better to just switch all production tiles to specialists to minimise any HPT pre whip.
I suspect we should of kept this as a seperate thread.
So 1 hammer invested but with the overflow of 30 14 goes to warrior but you will only get back 15 hammer overflow or less as it won't give you above 15 hammers.
Am i right in thinking whipping no longer gives overflow gold from lost hammers above the base build?
BBP - Is it wise top avoid any hammers per turn after you whip an item if you already know you have reach the max 30 hammer overflow.
So if I have a base production of 14 on my city when I whip it at 69 how does this affect my overflow? Would I be better to just switch all production tiles to specialists to minimise any HPT pre whip.
I suspect we should of kept this as a seperate thread.
whats a navy
Prince
I think making another thread about this doesn't spur really great talk because people generate the typical response and don't want to go in depth (except maybe TMIT). I love in threads like this where people go into core gameplay mechanics to explain why they did something or why they will do something. A great example is when Kossin in the Sury DR made a great detailed post about how he built up for his cavs war, which is something that probably wouldn't have happened if he tried to make a thread about war build up.
Sorry to jack this thread anymore than what it has been but I thought I'd put this out there.
Sorry to jack this thread anymore than what it has been but I thought I'd put this out there.
Dirk1302
Deity
Bbp is right, base hammers overflow. So when you whip a cheap library with 29 H invested you generate 60H, 30.5H of this gets multiplied to 61 to finish the library. The other 29.5 get rounded down to 29 iirc and over flow. So you don't generate 120H in such a whip as i stated earlier. Keep that in mind reading my earlier posts. It's been a while since i played regularly.
One extra example to make sure it's clear.
With Forge and OR assume you 2 pop whip anything and overflow 20 base hammers in the process. If you overflow to a unit you'll have
20H* 1.25 = 25H invested in the unit. If you overflow to a building you'll have 20 * 1.5 = 30H invested in the building.
If we have 100% reduction on the building it gets more complicated already. I think the bonuses are additive so our investment in the building will be 20 * (1 + 1 + 0.25 + 0.25) = 50H. So as i said earlier the base mechanism is simple but it tends to get more complicated as there are more modifiers involved.
One extra example to make sure it's clear.
With Forge and OR assume you 2 pop whip anything and overflow 20 base hammers in the process. If you overflow to a unit you'll have
20H* 1.25 = 25H invested in the unit. If you overflow to a building you'll have 20 * 1.5 = 30H invested in the building.
If we have 100% reduction on the building it gets more complicated already. I think the bonuses are additive so our investment in the building will be 20 * (1 + 1 + 0.25 + 0.25) = 50H. So as i said earlier the base mechanism is simple but it tends to get more complicated as there are more modifiers involved.
The tricky part is to figure out when to stop whipping a city, and starting to build up the long-term plan.
Can be as late as caste/workshops for some serious hammer business
Or as early as library + 2 scientists.
There are so many little bits to it, like preparing a city for a golden Age which usually means maximum growth so i have more population for specialists/hammers when it starts, when i wake up from my Civ stasis i played for 4 hours and it felt like 30 minutes
Can be as late as caste/workshops for some serious hammer business
Or as early as library + 2 scientists.
There are so many little bits to it, like preparing a city for a golden Age which usually means maximum growth so i have more population for specialists/hammers when it starts, when i wake up from my Civ stasis i played for 4 hours and it felt like 30 minutes
vranasm
Deity
^ and when you work cottages it gets complicated too... so that's probably why on high level play there are more farms then cottages involved ;-)
Please don't whip warriors.
Not sure what you mean. The 69h implies you're whipping a settler? In that case, no, there's no need to slow down production. When whipping a settler you're allowed 100h overflow.
What bbp says, keep using your best tiles or stuff for the current situation after whipping, when you got the overflow next turn you can plan from there.
It's important to not get too stuck in turn by turn planning, it messes with your head a bit and distracts from longer term goals
It's important to not get too stuck in turn by turn planning, it messes with your head a bit and distracts from longer term goals
I have played up to 1720bc.
Eventually built the mids around 1720bc.
I have mined the grassland hills below New york and the Plains Hill in Washington BFC.
Celts and Incas both have 3 cities. Celts appear directly below my capital. You can see their cultural borders. Ackk!
Next task is to build/whip a settler. I will post a screen shot later.
For now here is the save.
I need to decide new city locations. I would like to get a library up in Washington and chance a GE with 2 scientists. I have no real rush to rex yet but a third city is next on to do list. Civic change soon on its way!
I have some room for some whipping. 2 pop/3pop whip in washington? Overflow into granary!
The Celts are 1-2 south of the second sugar!
Eventually built the mids around 1720bc.
I have mined the grassland hills below New york and the Plains Hill in Washington BFC.
Celts and Incas both have 3 cities. Celts appear directly below my capital. You can see their cultural borders. Ackk!
Next task is to build/whip a settler. I will post a screen shot later.
For now here is the save.
I need to decide new city locations. I would like to get a library up in Washington and chance a GE with 2 scientists. I have no real rush to rex yet but a third city is next on to do list. Civic change soon on its way!
I have some room for some whipping. 2 pop/3pop whip in washington? Overflow into granary!
Spoiler :
The Celts are 1-2 south of the second sugar!
whats a navy
Prince
After looking at save
Move the warriors out and explore your W and N. Happiness isn't a problem because you can revolt into rep so you don't need garrisons yet.
Farm the sugar tile in Washington for food and the two grass tiles that overlap NY and Washington for food so we you can crack that whip.
Slow down on chopping for now, build mines, farms, and road to future cities.
Move the warriors out and explore your W and N. Happiness isn't a problem because you can revolt into rep so you don't need garrisons yet.
Farm the sugar tile in Washington for food and the two grass tiles that overlap NY and Washington for food so we you can crack that whip.
Slow down on chopping for now, build mines, farms, and road to future cities.
