[RD] 'Heritage not hate' American civil war debate

[caketastydelish]

The Confederacy during the American civil war only lasted for 4 years. The people that fly the flag today are saying 'heritage not hate'. That they are only celebrating their heritage and not trying to offend black people.

I can accept that argument if the flag had been around for a long time. But we're only talking about a period of 4 years. That's not really enough time for 'heritage' to set in. 4 years is about the lifespan of a trend in the fashion industry. 'Heritage not hate' could be an argument made for the American flag. America had a history of racism and slavery but the flag has been around for a long time. Thus, 'heritage not hate' is a valid excuse. The British, French, and Spanish also had similar racism and imperialism. But their flags been around for a long time, enough time to justify the 'heritage not hate' argument. 4 years is only a tiny period of time, even for the people alive THEN. For people to still be hanging onto the 'heritage' of a small period of time from 150 years ago is absurd. And this is why I can't take the 'heritage not hate' argument from Confederate flag wavers very seriously.

If you all want to say the south, in general, is your heritage, that's one thing. To say only 4 years of that counts says something else. It says the 4 years you care about the most is the 4 years where your side tried to defend an evil institution. This would be like modern Germans saying the Nazi flag is their heritage. And that's despite Nazi Germany having lasted quite a bit longer, and it has happened more recently as well.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Agreed. Of course the rationality of your argument makes it unlikely that the people claiming "heritage not hate" will give it any credence, since they are defending an irrational position.

 

[civver_764]

Over 300,000 southerners died defending that flag. It doesn't matter that it was only 4 years, it was clearly an important part of their history. And considering that you are from Seattle, who are you to tell them about their heritage and what parts of their history are important?

 

[Peuri]

You make a good point. Nevertheless, I can see people tying the the idea of southernness in general to the flag. It's quite easy to link a previous identity with a longer history to a new expression of it. So even though you are technically right, doesn't mean that people can't form a new association to a symbol of their identity. Maybe they could make a new flag? That would be nice.

Think of any nations forming in the 19th and 20th centuries. The finnish identity, for example, existed before independence, but the flag was made only after the fact.

Personally I like the confederate flag better aesthetically. Who puts more than 3 stripes in a flag? Sheesh.

 

[Berzerker]

How many people died for the swastika?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Over 300,000 southerners died defending that flag. It doesn't matter that it was only 4 years, it was clearly an important part of their history. And considering that you are from Seattle, who are you to tell them about their heritage and what parts of their history are important?

Good point. Anyone who wants to claim significant emotional commitment to an enemy flag because their ancestors died for it should be deported to the nation represented by that flag.

 

[civver_764]

How many people died for the swastika?

The USSR killed many more millions of people than the Nazis. Yet, people have no problem flying that flag in Russia today. And I don't see a problem with that. I can give them the benefit of the doubt that they are just celebrating their history.

 

[Berzerker]

southern history... the slave trade, murder, torture, terrorism, a war with 600,000 dead and a flag to proudly wave around for the next 150 years to remind the victims' progeny

 

[Birdjaguar]

The antebellum south and its genteel way of life came to an end (mostly) in 1865. The dogged, rebellious spirit that sustained the southern armies through 4 years of war was retained after the war through racial politics that stratified southern society into a patrician class, poor whites and freed slaves. The poor whites took on the Confederate Battle flag as their symbol of superiority over freed Negroes. Four years of war, the rebel yell, Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson were the high watermark of the poor white culture. They clung to that flag for 100 years until the civil rights laws began to take their toll and they could no longer avoid that blacks had been made their equal. George Wallace and Jesse Helms were their modern day heroes. For the past 30 years they have gone mostly unnoticed. Bad schools, jobs moving overseas, technology advancing, all left them ignorant, unskilled, and with little hope of change. Many are still racist. Their flag and statures are what they have left and those are less and less acceptable. Trump is their last hurrah. The Battle Flag is the rebel yell made flesh. It is deeply symbolic. Its problem is that it is a symbol not only of rebelliousness, but of hateful superiority.

 

[Berzerker]

The USSR killed many more millions of people than the Nazis. Yet, people have no problem flying that flag in Russia today. And I don't see a problem with that. I can give them the benefit of the doubt that they are just celebrating their history.

then you should have no problem with the swastika

 

[civver_764]

then you should have no problem with the swastika

That would be the conclusion one is drawn to. If the Communist flag is acceptable, then I see no reason why the Nazi flag shouldn't also be acceptable.

 

[caketastydelish]

The Soviet Union lasted far longer than Nazi Germany. I've been over this in the opening post of this thread.

The Soviet Union was not racially or religiously motivated either. That's not to say their murders were acceptable at all. The Soviet Union was also Russia's gateway drug into ending an undemocratic monarchy. That Soviet Union flag also represents defending their country against the Nazis. LOTS of Russians died in that war. More than any other country in the war IIRC. It is arguable that the allies wouldn't have won if Hitler hadn't made that stupid mistake.

Russia right now is not much better off than they were then. Putin is corrupt through and through. The wealth imbalance is outrageous with many in severe poverty, which is how they were attracted to socialism in the first place.

All of this being said I'm personally not a fan of the Soviet Union flag either. But it is not comparable to the Nazi flag.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The USSR killed many more millions of people than the Nazis. Yet, people have no problem flying that flag in Russia today. And I don't see a problem with that. I can give them the benefit of the doubt that they are just celebrating their history.

In Russia it was never an enemy flag. In the US the confederate flag was.

 

[innonimatu]

The USSR killed many more millions of people than the Nazis. Yet, people have no problem flying that flag in Russia today. And I don't see a problem with that. I can give them the benefit of the doubt that they are just celebrating their history.

Apart from that killed more being false (but I don't what to argue bad history) neither the USSR nor the Confederacy engaged in systematic genocide as part of state policy. And that despite genocide being quite "acceptable" in the the 19th century (all the colonial powers, US included, did it). Thus I'm rather surprised to see the swastika being compared to other flags because... it's not the same thing really. What was unforgivable regarding the nazis was not the insane war and destruction, it was the other things they did. At least slave owners didn't went around murdering slaves just because - they only wanted to exploit them and needed them alive for that. I don't meant to defend them, the Confederacy had the racism thing. And the slavery thing on top of that. But to be fair, so had many other near-contemporaneous polities.

 

[Berzerker]

That would be the conclusion one is drawn to. If the Communist flag is acceptable, then I see no reason why the Nazi flag shouldn't also be acceptable.

what if 'one' was the descendant of somebody murdered by the Nazis?

 

[Zkribbler]

The Confederacy during the American civil war only lasted for 4 years. The people that fly the flag today are saying 'heritage not hate'. That they are only celebrating their heritage and not trying to offend black people.

The Confederate battle flag fell into obscurity until it was revived by the KKK during the 40's. It's all about a heritage of white supremacy.

 

[Berzerker]

which is why swastikas are rather popular with the same crowd

 

[Birdjaguar]

Comparing flags is senseless. Each of those flags has its own history in its own time. Like those who support the confederate battle flag today, those who support Nazism or the old soviet flag or modern Russian flag, do so for different reasons that may or may not be connected to the origins of the flag. For "dead" flags one must look at how it is used today and the actions of those who fly it. Flying the Stars and Bars at Gettysburg on July 3rd can mean something very different than flying it at Trump rally.

 

[Peuri]

The Soviet Union lasted far longer than Nazi Germany. I've been over this in the opening post of this thread.

The Soviet Union was not racially or religiously motivated either. That's not to say their murders were acceptable at all. The Soviet Union was also Russia's gateway drug into ending an undemocratic monarchy. That Soviet Union flag also represents defending their country against the Nazis. LOTS of Russians died in that war. More than any other country in the war IIRC. It is arguable that the allies wouldn't have won if Hitler hadn't made that stupid mistake.

I'm playing the devil's advocate here, but in theory the soviets saw cultures as getting in the way of the proletariat. But in actuality it was a pro-russian state, trying to culture convert the minorities into russians. They were quite successful too. They also engaged in massive repopulation campaigns in efforts to breed out peoples in the peripheries, like the Baltic states. Can't trust those pesky minorities what with their bourgeoisie thoughts of national independence. Then they moved people from those places into Siberia. There are still villages with estonian speaking minorities in Siberia and sizeable russian minotities in neighbouring countries thanks to these policies. Not to mention all the germans in East Europe that were just deported outright. But hey, if everyone spoke russian, the world proletariat would have been united, no? This was Stalin's goal, but to my knowledge subsuqient leaders didn't steer very far from that. And the undemocratic tsarist regime was already toppled before the soviets rose.

All of this being said I'm personally not a fan of the Soviet Union flag either. But it is not comparable to the Nazi flag.

Maybe not to you, but to the peoples that had to live under the USSR, I don't know that it's very far from that. Quite sad, it's a beautiful flag.

 

[Senethro]

Apart from that killed more being false (but I don't what to argue bad history) neither the USSR nor the Confederacy engaged in systematic genocide as part of state policy. And that despite genocide being quite "acceptable" in the the 19th century (all the colonial powers, US included, did it). Thus I'm rather surprised to see the swastika being compared to other flags because... it's not the same thing really. What was unforgivable regarding the nazis was not the insane war and destruction, it was the other things they did. At least slave owners didn't went around murdering slaves just because - they only wanted to exploit them and needed them alive for that. I don't meant to defend them, the Confederacy had the racism thing. And the slavery thing on top of that. But to be fair, so had many other near-contemporaneous polities.

mate you often have well thought out opinions but I'm not sure this is one of them. Needs some work, certainly in form and maybe in substance.