Hermetic lore for FFH DI4 (not for use outside this game)

[Onionsoilder]

Which god are you again?

Technically, I'm not in confrontation with any god at the moment. Gerran is. He's the one who's criminalized risk-taking-for-self-benefit, aka gambling. Not me.

Cernunnos. And we are at odds; you cursed my Champion. I don't care who's laws you claim to be enforcing; you're the one that cursed him, and that doesn't fly with me.

(I'm not really mad, but story-wise Cernunnos is very upset with you.)

 

[zacman]

I think what Dean is trying to highlight is that a round lasts 50 turns. If they get the tech on the 1st turn they could complete the ritutual in the next 20 turns then have 30 or so turns to run rampents with the Acended Uric. You can't count on thinks happening as you plan them. Because the world is in flux and people make changes as they go then no plan will survive for long. You have to try and steer events. Give them a nudge here and there in the direction you want but it may never happen the way you want or plan for.

If you wish for something like this then you could use a different method then the ritual to creat the avatar.. perhaps you put Uric on the map as a mortal (the figure is in worldbuilder) and gift him with the Godslayer. Then Perhaps Uric has to kill someone or do something with it to recreate the god of winter in Erebus. And Uric petitions the Girgori for help. This way you bypass the computer having control of the time and place it more in the realms of human control.

Good point. I think ill make the grigor do the things you have to do in the scenarios instead.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Cernunnos. And we are at odds; you cursed my Champion. I don't care who's laws you claim to be enforcing; you're the one that cursed him, and that doesn't fly with me.

(I'm not really mad, but story-wise Cernunnos is very upset with you.)

Shouldn't Cernunnos be upset against the one who made those laws? The one who banned such risk tasking in the first place?

I have not cursed the Grigori: I have blessed them. I am moving them farther from corruption, greed, and selfishness. You, of all people, benefit: the Grigori should not exist to slaughter your creatures as a matter of practice, should not risk not only their lives, but the sanctity of nature. Nothing I have done harms you, or the Grigori Adventurer: as he returns home, he is completely safe and protected.

Unless, of course, someone else put monsters in his way. But that was not I...

 

[Ravus_Sol]

Good point. I think ill make the grigor do the things you have to do in the scenarios instead.

Ohh that could work! as this is now a new story that scenario hasn't happened yet in the land of Erebus and could be fun. I've not played through them completely so what do the scenarios entail exactly?

You will probably have to type up some kind of narrative explaining the quests, perhaps something from one of the villagers explaining their plight? If you are unsure you can allways post the narrative in this Lore Forum first.

Speaking of which; I added another narrative to the main forums. As you can see the Harbringers are really pushing it up a notch. i realised that i am making Camulos to be a much more subtle god them is generally done in Divine Intervention games. Is this allright with everyone? As it's probably only going to get worse from here on in.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Question:

Is my intervention in or not?

We have 7 hours, people.

 

[zacman]

Heres what happens in each scenario:
2nd scenario[nothing in 1st]:Auric attacks the bannor to get sabathiel's divine blood. Sabathiel abadoned the bannor years ago so he goes and kills cassiel [sp?].

3ed scenario: Auric hires hires hippus mercenarys to capture barnauxes because he has the divine breath of mulcrum.

4th scenario: Auric and the mercanrys wake the white dagon from its prison in pristein pass.

5th scenario: auric attemps to accend and is stoped [of course in the game he will succead]

 

[Ravus_Sol]

Question:

Is my intervention in or not?

We have 7 hours, people.

This is what you wanted right...

Adventurer Finnigan gets Bounty Hunter, Withered, and Diseased.

Original warrior (possibly renamed) gets bounty hunter.

7 gold removed.

4 wolves around the capital. Promote as you wish.

Markets for each AI capital of neutral/evil leaders. Because I want to set the Hippus up as a major force, Calendar to them and one cash crop requiring plantations.

-Finnigan has all of those promotions now and thus can't heal in the wild.
-The original warrior was renamed 'The First' and got bounty hunter (someone had allready added withered and Diseased.
-Don't know how to do gold but i think Lgaard did it.
-There are 4 wolvees around the capital and i think one of them has AI that could let it enter the Grigori lands
- checked a few capitals and they seem to have markets, i believe Lgaard did this in his intervention.
- Hippus have calendar and plantation crops allreadyd (again i assume added by lgaard)

So i think it was all done. Can't think of anything i missed. You can double check the edit if you want. Anything appear to be missing?

TO EVERYONE: So far i've played to turn 80 on the save and no crash. need to go out soon so someone else better double check further.

Edit: Managed to get to turn 100 and no crash so i believe we are safe. Could be done with double checking.

Some of the Gods have stated that we have been gifting Gerran too much but from what i can tell we are actually nerfing him by distacting him with numerous quests and the gifts and curses end up coming out with a negative spin. Compared to the other Civs Gerran could be in trouble.

The Spoiler belowe reflects a typical game where the Grigori do not influence the other civs much. The real game might not progress like this. It is just a possible future that the Gods can attempt to base future plots and interventions on. However do not look if you wish to be suprised by the happenings in foreign affairs during Verdians Game

Spoiler Shifts in the global power structure by turn 100 :

- The newly added Oghma civ ends up nerfed quite quickly. They build up a useless warrior army that eats at their income and without having fishing the workboats just stay harboured.
- The Elves go to war viciously. The Ljosalfar having a more war centric leader quickly take the lead. Especially with Ered nerfed with Desert tiles. My Harbringers fall quickly during the war *sigh* guess i will have to write death scenes or something. It was fun though. (Amusingly both sides DO fight over who gets a city close to Yggdrasil
- Ca-Lorda plants more cities in stupid places nerfing himself as allways.
- Tasuke DOES end up looking like a late game super power as does the Bannor
- It actually looks like The Clan are could easily become the world super power, so good luck for Bhaal.
- The elves are now too busy with war to manage to get their religion up and running. (Sorry Cernunnos)
- The Octupus Lords seems to be built either by the Lanun or (surprisingly) The Sheim. (sp?)

 

[Bootsiuv]

I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but when I opened up the game Finnegan DID NOT have the Hero promotion in his list of promos. I don't know if this is something wrong with my game or not, but someone should see if the previous save has Finnegan with hero, and if it doesn't I checked his promos right before I saved this one.

I don't want to post it in the main game thread in case my FfH is somehow messed up and removing the hero promo for some reason, although that seems unlikely considering I dumped my computer over thanksgiving weekend and reinstalled everything up to patch J fresh, so the install is less than two weeks old, and has always worked fine.

EDIT Ravus, I was thinking the exact opposite. If he chooses to only do one or two quests, he isn't exactly nerfed, as he has some decent units running around. He certainly has more than most, if not all, other civs. Even if some of them have drawbacks....

I'm thinking my next quest will be very far away....I wanted to start him out with something easy. Assuming he decides to do it of course (I'm thinking a Hero medic might be the reward if completes both, so he would be wise to do so ).

 

[Ravus_Sol]

I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but when I opened up the game Finnegan DID NOT have the Hero promotion in his list of promos. I don't know if this is something wrong with my game or not, but someone should see if the previous save has Finnegan with hero, and if it doesn't I checked his promos right before I saved this one.

I don't want to post it in the main game thread in case my FfH is somehow messed up and removing the hero promo for some reason, although that seems unlikely considering I dumped my computer over thanksgiving weekend and reinstalled everything up to patch J fresh, so the install is less than two weeks old, and has always worked fine.

EDIT Ravus, I was thinking the exact opposite. If he chooses to only do one or two quests, he isn't exactly nerfed, as he has some decent units running around. He certainly has more than most, if not all, other civs. Even if some of them have drawbacks....

I'm thinking my next quest will be very far away....I wanted to start him out with something easy. Assuming he decides to do it of course (I'm thinking a Hero medic might be the reward if completes both, so he would be wise to do so ).

Strange... When i just did a play through Finny had hero (He kept getting level ups.) Were you using the save that i just posted? (damn hope i didn't make a mistake with the upload)

As for the quests, yeah i guess if he concentrates on only two or less he will be fine. My own play style likes to have a nice safe land so it will be different (which is most of the fun.) The hero medic would be good and flows well with the plot. My own interventions are also going to start being more far off. Barbarians civs, War between nations, Promoting units that get to a certain level.

 

[Onionsoilder]

Shouldn't Cernunnos be upset against the one who made those laws? The one who banned such risk tasking in the first place?

I'm the God of Nature. I don't care much about laws, only the outcomes. As such, you cursed my champion, therefore I am against you.

 

[Vandal Warlord]

i'm the god of nature. I don't care much about laws, only the outcomes. As such, you cursed my champion, therefore i am against you.

God war! God war! God war!

 

[Dean_the_Young]

This is what you wanted right...



-Finnigan has all of those promotions now and thus can't heal in the wild.
-The original warrior was renamed 'The First' and got bounty hunter (someone had allready added withered and Diseased.
-Don't know how to do gold but i think Lgaard did it.
-There are 4 wolvees around the capital and i think one of them has AI that could let it enter the Grigori lands
- checked a few capitals and they seem to have markets, i believe Lgaard did this in his intervention.
- Hippus have calendar and plantation crops allreadyd (again i assume added by lgaard)

So i think it was all done. Can't think of anything i missed. You can double check the edit if you want. Anything appear to be missing?

Alright. Thank you, Sol! I can't even load the save at this point, so I can only go by what others report and confirm.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm the God of Nature. I don't care much about laws, only the outcomes. As such, you cursed my champion, therefore I am against you.

No I didn't. Show me where I, Mammon, did any such thing.

If you want to blast the outcome, than Gerran is the one to go after. He's the one who skinned the cat, cut down the tree, or threw a rock at the hornet's nest, or pulled the lion's tale, or whatever metaphor you want to use. Do you blame a tree for falling when a mortal saws it through? The outcome was and is entirely a result of Gerran's actions.

What has happened to Finnegan is in his long-term health: he will not die, or even suffer pain, so long as he is safe and sound communing with nature in the Grigori lands.

 

[Onionsoilder]

No I didn't. Show me where I, Mammon, did any such thing.

If you want to blast the outcome, than Gerran is the one to go after. He's the one who skinned the cat, cut down the tree, or threw a rock at the hornet's nest, or pulled the lion's tale, or whatever metaphor you want to use. Do you blame a tree for falling when a mortal saws it through? The outcome was and is entirely a result of Gerran's actions.

What has happened to Finnegan is in his long-term health: he will not die, or even suffer pain, so long as he is safe and sound communing with nature in the Grigori lands.

-sigh-

Gerran's people are not the ones that cursed Finnegan. Your servants are the ones that did so. Therefore, I hold you to blame. If you did not decide to 'enforce' Gerran's laws, then Finnegan would not be cursed. And don't try to pull a "I wouldn't have enforced his laws if he didn't make them." gambit. Your power was the one that cursed Finnegan, and I hold you to fault. There is no room for discussions here. If you don't like it, then uncurse my champion. Otherwise, we are at odds from this point out.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

and, Dean, I just realized that I am now going to be opposing you much more avidly, according to the Lore.

Does anybody know, do healing potions remove such things as plague or withered or diseased, or whatever Dean Gave? (and, just to clarify, that is an in game way to counter that kind of thing, and so not messing with him)

ooc:

Spoiler lore :

Mammon is invading my vault, at the moment, the bastard...

 

[Dean_the_Young]

-sigh-

Gerran's people are not the ones that cursed Finnegan. Your servants are the ones that did so. Therefore, I hold you to blame. If you did not decide to 'enforce' Gerran's laws, then Finnegan would not be cursed. And don't try to pull a "I wouldn't have enforced his laws if he didn't make them." gambit. Your power was the one that cursed Finnegan, and I hold you to fault. There is no room for discussions here. If you don't like it, then uncurse my champion. Otherwise, we are at odds from this point out.

Finnegan would be cursed, a convict in the eyes of Grigori law, and even surer for harsher punishment once Gerran researches Code of Laws. Gerran is the one who outlawed gambling and swore punishment on people like Finnegan. You can no more hold me accountable for the actions of my servants than you can not hold Gerran for commanding me out of his people. Either the condemnation stops at the effector who caused the results, the Balor, or they go all the way to the top, Finnegan. Don't be a hypocrite like those Gods of Good, Cernunnos. You've stayed separate from them to this point, so why start now?


I'll let you maul that Balor all you want if you wish, though, if it will make you happy.

and, Dean, I just realized that I am now going to be opposing you much more avidly, according to the Lore.

Does anybody know, do healing potions remove such things as plague or withered or diseased, or whatever Dean Gave? (and, just to clarify, that is an in game way to counter that kind of thing, and so not messing with him)

They don't.



I'd really like to say that the 'curse', as you unreasonably insist on calling it, vanishes as long as Finnigan (or any other heroes) are in Grigori lands. That would match my intent, for the most part. For game mechanic reasons, though, I can't take it off when he does enter Grigori borders: that would give him another 50 turns to gamble as he pleases. But as long as he isn't risking his life somewhere dangerous, it shouldn't be effecting him.

ooc:

Spoiler lore :

Mammon is invading my vault, at the moment, the bastard...

The invasion of Ohgma's vault was from the D&D campaign that was the backstory for FFH, which is not cannon. In that continuity, Lita the witch was an angel of Ohgma raped by Hastur (my ArchAngel) to give birth Mardero (the AV religious hero) who would be immune to Ohgma's mists and remember what Mammon was searching for.

In Fall From Heaven Lore, that was all retconned. My troops invaded Danalin's vault,
not Ohgma's. That's why the Octopus Overlords exist: Archangel Hastur is whispering into Danalin's ears, giving him nightmares that effect Hemmah.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

The invasion of Ohgma's vault was from the D&D campaign that was the backstory for FFH, which is not cannon. In that continuity, Lita the witch was an angel of Ohgma raped by Hastur (my ArchAngel) to give birth Mardero (the AV religious hero) who would be immune to Ohgma's mists and remember what Mammon was searching for.

In Fall From Heaven Lore, that was all retconned. My troops invaded Danalin's vault,
not Ohgma's. That's why the Octopus Overlords exist: Archangel Hastur is whispering into Danalin's ears, giving him nightmares that effect Hemmah.

Wrong. it's not retconned out. Hastur himself is whispering in Danalin's ears, but Mammon's forces are still invading Oghma's vault, searching for something... can't remember what, but i'm almost convinced that the invasion is still happening.

 

[Onionsoilder]

Finnegan would be cursed, a convict in the eyes of Grigori law, and even surer for harsher punishment once Gerran researches Code of Laws. Gerran is the one who outlawed gambling and swore punishment on people like Finnegan. You can no more hold me accountable for the actions of my servants than you can not hold Gerran for commanding me out of his people. Either the condemnation stops at the effector who caused the results, the Balor, or they go all the way to the top, Finnegan. Don't be a hypocrite like those Gods of Good, Cernunnos. You've stayed separate from them to this point, so why start now?


I'll let you maul that Balor all you want if you wish, though, if it will make you happy.

I told you there was no room for discussion. On your orders, Finnegan was cursed. If Finnegan returned to Grigori lands and was jailed for his actions, then things would be different. However, that is not what happened. Since you refuse to withdraw your curse from Finnegan, we are now direct foes, Mammon.

And no, I don't care about your Balor. He is merely your tool. The sword is not jailed for murder, the criminal is - and in this case, the criminal is you.

 

[Dayen]

No I didn't. Show me where I, Mammon, did any such thing.

If you want to blast the outcome, than Gerran is the one to go after. He's the one who skinned the cat, cut down the tree, or threw a rock at the hornet's nest, or pulled the lion's tale, or whatever metaphor you want to use. Do you blame a tree for falling when a mortal saws it through? The outcome was and is entirely a result of Gerran's actions.

What has happened to Finnegan is in his long-term health: he will not die, or even suffer pain, so long as he is safe and sound communing with nature in the Grigori lands.

To be fair, Tali doesn't care about the outcome of exploration, he simply wants the Grigori to take risks because it makes life more exciting.

Gambling can make life more exciting, but not in any way that simply jumping out of a tree wouldn't as far as Tali is concerned. You're taking a logical conclusion: no gambling means no gambling (i.e. no gambling houses will be built and the practice of betting and engaging in games of chance for money is illegal) to a Strawman argument, whereby supposing that the outlawing of gambling is in the broadest sense possible meaning you simply cannot do anything, because everything you do is a gamble.

While I fully expect Gerran to refine his mandate when his people discover Code of Laws (i.e. no games of chance or betting), Tali will simply ignore Mammon as he is wont to do. I saw little reason to reward Finnegan specifically this intervention -- several gods have already done so -- but I did reward Gerran for taking risks...and fully intend to continue doing so.

Granted, Tali would never advocate for that sort of direction, and thus the Minstrel won't point out that his people would better understand his directives if he codified his laws (honestly, the thought probably wouldn't occur to the Minstrel at all, being pre-occupied as he is with his art), but in this case the increase in personal responsibility benefits Tali, which is why he probably wouldn't bother to actively oppose it.

While I hadn't originally intended to give him a Great Bard (this intervention), his role-playing in addition to the Grigori's apparent lust for risk (as evidenced by wagering with a god of greed, mind you) pleased Tali greatly. My rewards, while sometimes financially rewarding, tend to be more culturally rewarding. In addition to being the advocate of irresponsibility, Tali is also an incarnate of joy, and in Civ terms joy is represented through cultural gain and happy faces.

Additionally, the Minstrel and his protégées provide me with a way to subtly manipulate the Grigori. Which is quite useful to Tali as it gives him an indirect way to influence the affairs of mortal states.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Wrong. it's not retconned out. Hastur himself is whispering in Danalin's ears, but Mammon's forces are still invading Oghma's vault, searching for something... can't remember what, but i'm almost convinced that the invasion is still happening.

It's not. That was one of the changes from the D&D campaign.

I told you there was no room for discussion. On your orders, Finnegan was cursed. If Finnegan returned to Grigori lands and was jailed for his actions, then things would be different. However, that is not what happened. Since you refuse to withdraw your curse from Finnegan, we are now direct foes, Mammon.

And no, I don't care about your Balor. He is merely your tool. The sword is not jailed for murder, the criminal is - and in this case, the criminal is you.

In this set of events, though, I am the sword at Gerran's hand. And yet, even so, you're contradicting yourself, my friends: mere statements ago you were saying you cared not about the law. And now you call me a criminal for enforcing Gerran's own code?

I really have to wonder how you think you can oppose me, though. Will you make the Grigori or other people poor? Go ahead: it serves my purpose. Will you make them rich? That, too, serves my purpose.

I do wonder, however, if you are prepared for what would happen if you choose to war against me so soon.

To be fair, Tali doesn't care about the outcome of exploration, he simply wants the Grigori to take risks because it makes life more exciting.

Gambling can make life more exciting, but not in any way that simply jumping out of a tree wouldn't as far as Tali is concerned. You're taking a logical conclusion: no gambling means no gambling (i.e. no gambling houses will be built and the practice of betting and engaging in games of chance for money is illegal) to a Strawman argument, whereby supposing that the outlawing of gambling is in the broadest sense possible meaning you simply cannot do anything, because everything you do is a gamble.

While I fully expect Gerran to refine his mandate when his people discover Code of Laws (i.e. no games of chance or betting), Tali will simply ignore Mammon as he is wont to do. I saw little reason to reward Finnegan specifically this intervention -- several gods have already done so -- but I did reward Gerran for taking risks...and fully intend to continue doing so.

Granted, Tali would never advocate for that sort of direction, and thus the Minstrel won't point out that his people would better understand his directives if he codified his laws (honestly, the thought probably wouldn't occur to the Minstrel at all, being pre-occupied as he is with his art), but in this case the increase in personal responsibility benefits Tali, which is why he probably wouldn't bother to actively oppose it.

While I hadn't originally intended to give him a Great Bard (this intervention), his role-playing in addition to the Grigori's apparent lust for risk (as evidenced by wagering with a god of greed, mind you) pleased Tali greatly. My rewards, while sometimes financially rewarding, tend to be more culturally rewarding. In addition to being the advocate of irresponsibility, Tali is also an incarnate of joy, and in Civ terms joy is represented through cultural gain and happy faces.

Additionally, the Minstrel and his protégées provide me with a way to subtly manipulate the Grigori. Which is quite useful to Tali as it gives him an indirect way to influence the affairs of mortal states.

If it is your wish to reward those who go against your nature, there is naught I can do but stare and stand by.