Hermetic lore for FFH DI4 (not for use outside this game)

[Dean_the_Young]

So he has no Base of power or the neccesary divine prescense in the world for the other Gods to know that he is there? (just clarifing)

For purposes of this game, and this game alone.

Real lore, Mulcarn is dead. DEAD. Gone. Kaput. His soul isn't in any layer of Hell, or Arwan's realm, or in any of the heavens.

Hmmm this may change how i need to play Camulos then. So the basic point is that the lines of Good and Evil exist for a reason. All those on either side are allways one step away from a declared alliance. What about the neutral gods. Do they all count as allied with each other or can they be seen as more independent agents?

Evil gods rebelled against the One, the one true creator. The Good gods remained loyal and fought against the Evil. Neutral gods did not take part (for the most part). The Evil Gods were aligned, the Good Gods were aligned, and the Neutral gods were mostly neutral. (Danalin and the original god of Nature, Sucellus, joined against Evil, but later came to the Neutral group until the Age of Ice).

When compact was signed, Dagda, God of Force/Balance, made it stick by having the Neutral gods act as the enforcers. The Neutral gods banded together and would punish whoever broke compact.


Bhall, Goddess of Fire, was originally Good. One of the most good, in fact. Her Fall was what led to Mulcarn emerging into Creation, breaking compact and triggering the Age of Ice. Mulcarn's death at the hands of the original leader of the Amurites, Kylorin, is what ended the Age of Ice and gave way to the Age of Rebirth (the current age). So any new compact-signing can be justified as the result of Mulcarn breaking compact and then being killed. But even when both were Fallen, while they did not like eachother Bhall and Mulcarn did not fight. Their followers did not fight even when Bhall was good: Mulcarn's worshippers were tolerated in all the lands before Bhall's fall.

So just as bluntly as i can put it. No God has ever backstabbed another of their Alignment. To do so would either make them fall or rise (in their alignment - changin from good-to-evil or evil-to-neatral etc.

No.

While gods of the same alignment can work at cross-purposes (Ceriwolden is the only one who wants to destroy the world and existence, for example), but they won't go to all-out war for it. When it comes down to it, they need eachother, and they know it.

Hell, in Fall From Heaven, is actually the Vaults (heavens/hells) of every single Evil God (except Bhall, who has yet to make a new one since her Fall) put together into a single grand machine. The Evil Gods all play a role in the creation and maintaining of Hell as an overall. While they might fight on the particulars here and there, the Evil Gods will not backstab eachother in a way that will decide the war against Evil.

Neat that clears things up. Basically it is akin to all the Gods having the ability to project their voices to each other. Also we can enter each others vaults but to do so puts us at a disadvantage and into potetial enemy territory. Is this correct? If so i can work something of this.

In lore, they get together and talk directly, but it's generally not safe to do so on the other side. They can do it, though.

Compact was signed at a place called the Seven Pines, a unique feature in the game. There every God and every one of their ArchAngels gathered to hammer the infinite details and agree to it.

All gods, and all but three ArchAngels, have signed Compact. Those three are Odio (ArchAngel of Camaulos: wouldn't obey his god, had god's protection revoked and Kilimorph imprisoned him), Basium (former ArchAngel of Strife: wanted to keep killing Demons), and Cassiel (didn't think it went far enough). Bassium and Cassiel willingly Fell before the Agreement was signed.

Indeed i had forgoten that some chafed under the compact, It could be a build towards a re-write. I am unsure on what you mean by the weight though. You mean the Gods importance in the discussion they have?

Yes. If one god(s) or another is more important than others in Erebus, shouldn't that be reflected accordingly?

One thing to note is that, technically, Danalin won't be there as well. The Overlords are active, he is not. Make of that what we will.

And sorry i have to say i have allways imagined Mammon with a smug voice. Oe of those one's that implies "i worth more then you" Whenever they speak. (you know the type?). What kind of impression were you trying to give when you interved?

I was being smug-sarcastic right then.

A God interaction narrative would be helpful however it has to please each God in their portayal narrativly. No God is going to want someone else to write words into their mouth that makes them look weak. So you would have to have it double checked by everyone else. I figure it could be done with the new 2-week time slot though, thats why i reckomended it.

Two weeks is likely to be too long. That's a hundred turns, and then we would only get maybe 5 or 7 of them.

If someone has a problem, they can edit it, or ask not to be in that week's review.

 

[Bootsiuv]

Two weeks is the time between this round and the next i.e. we'll have two weeks for the next intervention.

I think that's why he said we would have enough time.

I must say I don't really understand the logic behind signing a new compact this early in the game, from an RP standpoint. We haven't been having ruthless godswars or anything....why would the gods want to limit their involvement now (especially in a divine intervention game)? Perhaps towards the late game, after much bloodshed and horror for the poor mortals of our little world....but not at turn 150 on a huge map with 20 civs.

 

[Dayen]

If it is your wish to reward those who go against your nature, there is naught I can do but stare and stand by.

Tali's nature is to avoid responsibility. If Gerran wants to outlaw gambling, then it's Gerran's business. That doesn't mean Tali won't stop pushing him to send his adventurers out, and won't stop disrupting the works of civilizations that put too much of their effort towards war.

Tali may be the incarnae of joy, but is gambling really a joyful activity? One could easily argue that it is more closely associated with despair, since it is very rarely handled in an above board manner where the gambler stands to gain as much as he loses.

I'll stick to patronizing simpler pleasures: music, art, culture in its myriad forms. I chose the role of Tali recognizing that I would be unlikely to find much at fault with Gerran/the Grigori in general. They aren't a warmongering people, nor are they particularly lawful individuals. Artistry and expression are highly valued by the race, de facto, regardless of who their leader is (as evinced by how highly they regarded a man with a guitar).

Tali asked Gerran to take risks in exploring ruins and lairs. He did. Positive reinforcement involves rewarding him.

Mammon is asking Gerran to stop taking risks. If he does, Tali will probably get grumpy, depending on what else Gerran accomplishes that may ameliorate Tali's displeasure. Researching cultural techs, for instance, building a carnival, using tamed animals to create entertainment, etc. Like I said, I hardly expect Gerran to full stop in a way that's going to enrage Tali.

Mind, if he did, he'd probably suffer horribly as Tali would set lose the Thunderbringer.

As far as how the gods talk, I would assume they can come into contact with any of the other gods they desire to. Certain gods would obviously do their best to avoid the other gods (Tali, Arawn, etc), but by and large they are accessible if you feel the need for a conversation.

 

[FireBlaze]

So does Verdian have the save now, and I can't implement my changes...?

 

[Bootsiuv]

Unfortunately, yes, he does.....intervention is Monday to Friday....I think his time zone is in Japan, so it might be a little different depending on where you live, but he takes them on thursday nights for me (eastern time).

Don't worry though, you'll have a longer time to add changes, at least for the next round (two weeks since Verdian is going out of town).

 

[Ravus_Sol]

Evil gods rebelled against the One, the one true creator. The Good gods remained loyal and fought against the Evil. Neutral gods did not take part (for the most part). The Evil Gods were aligned, the Good Gods were aligned, and the Neutral gods were mostly neutral. (Danalin and the original god of Nature, Sucellus, joined against Evil, but later came to the Neutral group until the Age of Ice).

When compact was signed, Dagda, God of Force/Balance, made it stick by having the Neutral gods act as the enforcers. The Neutral gods banded together and would punish whoever broke compact.

Well that changes some idea's i was having, But it also enforces some others. So the neutral side are basically enforces of the non-intervention pact. And the compact is besically a declaration that the neutrals will band against the side that intervenes too directly in Erebus.
That part definatly has potential. I'm begining to get an idea of where i want to take Camulos now.

Bhall, Goddess of Fire, was originally Good. One of the most good, in fact. Her Fall was what led to Mulcarn emerging into Creation, breaking compact and triggering the Age of Ice. Mulcarn's death at the hands of the original leader of the Amurites, Kylorin, is what ended the Age of Ice and gave way to the Age of Rebirth (the current age). So any new compact-signing can be justified as the result of Mulcarn breaking compact and then being killed. But even when both were Fallen, while they did not like eachother Bhall and Mulcarn did not fight. Their followers did not fight even when Bhall was good: Mulcarn's worshippers were tolerated in all the lands before Bhall's fall.

Good to know and hear about properly. So basic supposition is that if attacked i shall defend my allies-potentia (evil gods) but otherwise i shall do not need to help them and may actually try to curtail their activities i dislike, but i may not activly war against them.

Thus if it was revealed to the gods (in this lore) that the God of Ice could be reborn i could attempt to curtail the Illians as Camulos dislikes the stasis that he brings. But i could not directly decalre war upon them. (with my minions) The most i could do would be to heavily influence barbarian activity in their lands and perhaps use Harbringers to start a war against them. (manipulating perhaps the Bannor to do my dirty work.)

It's definate food for thought.

In lore, they get together and talk directly, but it's generally not safe to do so on the other side. They can do it, though.

Compact was signed at a place called the Seven Pines, a unique feature in the game. There every God and every one of their ArchAngels gathered to hammer the infinite details and agree to it.

All gods, and all but three ArchAngels, have signed Compact. Those three are Odio (ArchAngel of Camaulos: wouldn't obey his god, had god's protection revoked and Kilimorph imprisoned him), Basium (former ArchAngel of Strife: wanted to keep killing Demons), and Cassiel (didn't think it went far enough). Bassium and Cassiel willingly Fell before the Agreement was signed.

I suppose we could also use the seven pines if we did do something involving the Gods discusing the compact. Really, Odio was mine? I believed it was the avatar of War and that Odio was someone else's.

I was being smug-sarcastic right then.

Two weeks is likely to be too long. That's a hundred turns, and then we would only get maybe 5 or 7 of them.

If someone has a problem, they can edit it, or ask not to be in that week's review.

Ah i missed that well you do smug very well. including smug correcting.

I meant that after Verdian writes up this weeks round he has a business trip (mon - fri) and offered to delay the next round so that we could do more and he could reply to all the interventions in character as he has so far. With the extra week to intervene we would have more time to draw up something this round.

-

Sorry to everyone else about the lengths of these posts i'm just trying to get as much lore as i can before the next intervention. I figure that will be a big one with more lines being drawn. Then the one after that will probably see the Grigori contacting more of the world and things will develop quickly from their.

 

[Bootsiuv]

I'm beginning to wonder how the guys going to handle 12-16 simultaneous storylines.

Sounds like it could become quite difficult once things start to get a little more complicated.

He is an excellent storyteller though, although we should probably try and limit our Out-of-Intervention posts in the main thread, if only to help him stay organized.

 

[Ravus_Sol]

I'm beginning to wonder how the guys going to handle 12-16 simultaneous storylines.

Sounds like it could become quite difficult once things start to get a little more complicated.

He is an excellent storyteller though, although we should probably try and limit our Out-of-Intervention posts in the main thread, if only to help him stay organized.

Thats why it might be helpful to have something that sums up everything that has happened halfway threw the game.

-

Its also why i'll be mainly adding to wars going on elsewere and starting up a barabarian Haven myself. Maybe helping the Dovello more when the Grigori meets them. Stuff that will happen in the background.

It helps that there are civs and religions that the gods can tend towards and as long as no-one strays out of character too much most Gods will be linked with actions similer to their precept.

-

Also as a note does anyone know any of the lore about mortals escaping Camulos's vault. I believe one of the leaders of the Shiem did with help from another god. And aparantl that one of the leaders of the dovello was released on petition of the civilization (maybe?)

I'm thinking of using both these concepts subtly in the story so any help would be great.

 

[Bootsiuv]

The only person of Sheaim who returned from a vault is Tebryn Arbandi as far as I know, but I thought it was Arawns (or whoever the god of death is).

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Also as a note does anyone know any of the lore about mortals escaping Camulos's vault. I believe one of the leaders of the Shiem did with help from another god. And aparantl that one of the leaders of the dovello was released on petition of the civilization (maybe?)

That would be Tebryn Arbandi, rescued by the evil Goddess Ceridwen to be her agent in order to destroy the world.

Tebryn is the only known escapist from that vault that we know of, and for him it was the direct intervention of a deity. While there are secret passages between the vaults, the most common, well known, and traficked ones enter into Esus's hell: it looks exactly like Erebus, to trick people into thinking they have returned, but breaks down their will through crushed hope and betrayed trust by all they think they know.

Charadan of the Doveillo, who was a unknowing follower of Cernunnos, was brought back after Doveillo shamans asked Cernunnos to ask Arwan. Arwan granted Cernunnos's request, and the Doveillo were given their most savage leader.

 

[Ravus_Sol]

That would be Tebryn Arbandi, rescued by the evil Goddess Ceridwen to be her agent in order to destroy the world.

Tebryn is the only known escapist from that vault that we know of, and for him it was the direct intervention of a deity. While there are secret passages between the vaults, the most common, well known, and traficked ones enter into Esus's hell: it looks exactly like Erebus, to trick people into thinking they have returned, but breaks down their will through crushed hope and betrayed trust by all they think they know.

Charadan of the Doveillo, who was a unknowing follower of Cernunnos, was brought back after Doveillo shamans asked Cernunnos to ask Arwan. Arwan granted Cernunnos's request, and the Doveillo were given their most savage leader.

MWHAHAHAHA perfect! no wait... you say he was a follower of Cernunnos? Not Camulos? Damn thats a shame. Cernunnos you mind if i re-write Charadan as my own follower or perhaps an equal follower of both of us? I really want to use Charadan as a character to facilitate turning the Dovello into a war-monger.
As no-one is playing Arawn (now that vandal has official stepped down) no one should mind if i write this up as happening in game as soon as the grigori meet the dovello.

Important future note: This will definatly be used. I'll probably gift Charadan to the Dovello as a unit first. Then, if someone can help me do it, Change Charadan into the Dovello leader and write in a cultural revolution placing him in power with the help of Harbringers. Then lead the Dovello on a charge of war-fare through-out the world.

Tebryn escaped! Yes now i can use this as an excuse to pester the Sheim civ. I just need to figure out whether i want Camulos to like Gabella for helping Camulos fall or hate her.

-

Hope no-one objects to those ideas (Junil feel free to wage a war on the Dovello as soon as Charadan appears)

 

[Dean_the_Young]

No, it appears I was mistaken. Doveillo's patron god seems to be Camulos, not Cernunnos, who is patron god of the elves. I can't find something that says that outright, but each base civ has one of the gods as its patron, and Doveillo seem to be Camulos by process of elimination.

Tebrynb escaped, but only because of direct intervention of the Queen of Pain, and he remains in direct communion with Ceridwen, the goddess who literally ties Hell together.

 

[Ravus_Sol]

No, it appears I was mistaken. Doveillo's patron god seems to be Camulos, not Cernunnos, who is patron god of the elves. I can't find something that says that outright, but each base civ has one of the gods as its patron, and Doveillo seem to be Camulos by process of elimination.

Tebrynb escaped, but only because of direct intervention of the Queen of Pain, and he remains in direct communion with Ceridwen, the goddess who literally ties Hell together.

YES! The Dovello are mine! All mine! Thanks Dean you've really helped.

Yeah I figure with Ceridwen meant to be looking over the Shiem i won't be able to do anything overtly but i figure i can prob barbarians towards the Shiem. You know, make them act like a big sign saying "Oh Tebrynb child i havn't forgotten you, don't forget i'm watching you. Hope to see you back in hell soon."
Should be fun.

-

Oh yeah to everyone Verdian Just posted that he couldn't do much this turn. At least in regards to anything that needed man-power to complete. (Perhaps he should call on the God of War... mwhahaha)
I guess some of the quests were a bit much while still on turn 50 so take that into account when doing the next round of interventions.

 

[Dayen]

As an aside, for those not versed in the Celtic mythology these deities and archangels are pulled from, Cernunnos wasn't just the patron of the wilderness, he was also the leader of the Wild Hunt. So some confusion as to whether he is a peaceful and serene deity or a berserk animal of a deity is to be expected.

The historical Cernunnos certainly straddled those two roles often enough.

Granted, the Celts had dozens of war gods and a handful of "major" war gods. The original Celtic lineages did, after all, have a lot of warring to do, and many different goals from war to war.

 

[Babale]

My actions are promoting responsible behavior. You, of all people, should understand why unnecessary risk for personal gain is a danger to one's self, and one's soul. Am I right or wrong?

Spoiler :

I love this new god IC thing...

Wrong! Sometimes responsibility lies in risking one's life for a greater reward. Why, for example, did I support those of the Khazak who left the safety of the mountain, rather than those who holed up to die? Responsibility means taking no unintelligent risks. Exploring a fort could hurt, but it could also end well.

Besides, if I support you, you might gain too much power. As my main enemy, I can't let that happen. My enemie's enemy is my ally and all that.

 

[Lgaard]

Oh, I've just opened my comp and what I see? Two tons of new posts. That's great, but...
Yeap, arnt we over-zealous?

I've got lost in what is your intention and what you ask me to do in here. When signing up for this game as Dagda, I thought my role would be to look at the map and check nothing is going out of balance. Dozens of barbarian balors added by one god or changing Grigori's land completely into ice might be the examples.
Apart from that I was planning to facilitate the discussions between gods on changes (interventions) they are going to make, so they are not to interrupting each others (more than expected).
But now... you are asking me to forge a New Compact? Srry... my English is... well.. as it is. I try not to involve into narratives more than necessary. And is the New Compact really necessary?

I like your enthusiasm. I'm impressed by your knowledge of the lore. I love your narratives. But I start to worry if all what we are having here is not going to overwhelm Vardian's game. Apparently he is now having economical collapse (I bet he did not pillage the facilities near Arawn Tower; what a shame!) . His civ is still in the early game and he has problems with the very first quests we have given to him.
I know he has stated "go on gods! you might win the game too!", but I tink our approach should be more oriented towards providing fun for him. That's why, while I like your arguments in here, I would be happy if it turns into nice IC narrative rather than pure practicing of your erisitic skills.

Dont get me wrong. If anyone feels ok with writing narratives for Annual Gods Assembly - go for it! I will not manage myself, at least not at the moment. Please post it into this thread first.

 

[Vandal Warlord]

I suppose we could also use the seven pines if we did do something involving the Gods discusing the compact. Really, Odio was mine? I believed it was the avatar of War and that Odio was someone else's.

Actually, Odio was my Archangel. After he lead an army of Ira into the lands of men, the council charged me to remove my protection (which I did). In that instant, Kilmorph pulled Odio into the earth.

 

[Ravus_Sol]

Oh, I've just opened my comp and what I see? Two tons of new posts. That's great, but...
Yeap, arnt we over-zealous?

I've got lost in what is your intention and what you ask me to do in here. When signing up for this game as Dagda, I thought my role would be to look at the map and check nothing is going out of balance. Dozens of barbarian balors added by one god or changing Grigori's land completely into ice might be the examples.
Apart from that I was planning to facilitate the discussions between gods on changes (interventions) they are going to make, so they are not to interrupting each others (more than expected).
But now... you are asking me to forge a New Compact? Srry... my English is... well.. as it is. I try not to involve into narratives more than necessary. And is the New Compact really necessary?

I like your enthusiasm. I'm impressed by your knowledge of the lore. I love your narratives. But I start to worry if all what we are having here is not going to overwhelm Vardian's game. Apparently he is now having economical collapse (I bet he did not pillage the facilities near Arawn Tower; what a shame!) . His civ is still in the early game and he has problems with the very first quests we have given to him.
I know he has stated "go on gods! you might win the game too!", but I tink our approach should be more oriented towards providing fun for him. That's why, while I like your arguments in here, I would be happy if it turns into nice IC narrative rather than pure practicing of your erisitic skills.

Dont get me wrong. If anyone feels ok with writing narratives for Annual Gods Assembly - go for it! I will not manage myself, at least not at the moment. Please post it into this thread first.

Sorry yeah i guess this is a shock to read all at once. (I'd like to say that personaly i find your english to be much better then some of the people living in england currently, i was born there and the amount of people who speak like thugs in my home town was appauling.) Lgaard does have a point that we are here to help verdian with his game not attempt to overtake it with our own ego and agendas. Certainly if Verdian has done as badly as we fear this round them we may have to do things differently.

Perhaps this, along with the idea for an entrance to hell should be set aside untill later on in the game. We can't forget that if we make life too difficult for Verdian then he may DIE suddenly. No point in planning the future unless you are certain you can survive untill then.

Verdian has also just asked an interesting question in the other thread about how much protection he recieves if he worships one god over another. Having Mammon annoyed at him has tanked his economy so it is a serious question.

My own view is similer to what i believe Onionsoilder stated. That if a god curses you, they curse you within their own precept. Thus you must work around it. Other gods can thus bless you with their own precept that will make up for it.

However i'm not sure if that would work in game. The God of nature could provide enough bounty for a specialist economy. The God of war could provide mercenaries for pillaging but only so much can be done.

In game if i was limited in this way i would try to found or conquer a holy city to gain the insane money bonus. But narrativly thats hard to do... I'm currently pondering on something that would need stevanson to have survived. I could gift him and some mercenaries the hidden nationality promotion (and the free unit promotion if it's still there) Then charge him with some war so as to gain pillage money for the grigori... But that would depend on how Stevanson was developed narrativly and whether he survived.

Anyone else have any ideas?

-

As an extra note: how was the new grigori civ created? If you look in the events chart then it says they were created by being split of from the grigori. Theres not a chance that Gerran is paying a vassal tax is he?

 

[Vandal Warlord]

Spoiler :

Sorry yeah i guess this is a shock to read all at once. (I'd like to say that personaly i find your english to be much better then some of the people living in england currently, i was born there and the amount of people who speak like thugs in my home town was appauling.) Lgaard does have a point that we are here to help verdian with his game not attempt to overtake it with our own ego and agendas. Certainly if Verdian has done as badly as we fear this round them we may have to do things differently.

Perhaps this, along with the idea for an entrance to hell should be set aside untill later on in the game. We can't forget that if we make life too difficult for Verdian then he may DIE suddenly. No point in planning the future unless you are certain you can survive untill then.

Verdian has also just asked an interesting question in the other thread about how much protection he recieves if he worships one god over another. Having Mammon annoyed at him has tanked his economy so it is a serious question.

My own view is similer to what i believe Onionsoilder stated. That if a god curses you, they curse you within their own precept. Thus you must work around it. Other gods can thus bless you with their own precept that will make up for it.

However i'm not sure if that would work in game. The God of nature could provide enough bounty for a specialist economy. The God of war could provide mercenaries for pillaging but only so much can be done.

In game if i was limited in this way i would try to found or conquer a holy city to gain the insane money bonus. But narrativly thats hard to do... I'm currently pondering on something that would need stevanson to have survived. I could gift him and some mercenaries the hidden nationality promotion (and the free unit promotion if it's still there) Then charge him with some war so as to gain pillage money for the grigori... But that would depend on how Stevanson was developed narrativly and whether he survived.

Anyone else have any ideas?

-

As an extra note: how was the new grigori civ created? If you look in the events chart then it says they were created by being split of from the grigori. Theres not a chance that Gerran is paying a vassal tax is he?

I felt the same way, Lgaard, after going ton eat and then I came back to find two more pages on each thread. . And I have noticed few grammatical errors. But I'm from Philly, so I won't be much help grammar wise. .

I noticed as well that Verdian was getting a lot of units in the beginning. Then he was suddenly being torn down. My minor revolt was the direct result of the punishment the young boy received, however, I will not be going to an extreme (aka Civil War). The only units involved will be-

Cael (Axeman with Enraged and Recruiter) along with two worker units named (Angry farmers). SO, if Cael is defeated, then Verdian will have two new worker units to help jump start the economy. However if Cael succeeds, which I doubt, then well... I haven't worked out that part.

With this revolt, I am trying to add flavor and get some of the Adventurers some experience. So he is more than welcome to use them.

 

[Bootsiuv]

I see Lgaards point.

We should probably start to organize what we're going to do in the next intervention, post it in here, have any balancing discussions, work out any conflicts that overlapping quests might create etc.

I have to go into work today for a few hours (work on saturday....boo), but I'll think about what I might do in the next intervention. I think a few of the gods who he has pleased this round should strongly consider gifting him some things that will help his economy i.e. those gems kilmorph added could be set up with a mine (assuming he has mining, and even if he didn't, we could set up some storyline on why he got them).

If we sink his game economically, a few civs are going to overrun the map, and then the gods will be the least of his worries....