Hermetic lore for FFH DI4 (not for use outside this game)

[Ravus_Sol]

If we sink his game economically, a few civs are going to overrun the map, and then the gods will be the least of his worries....

Indeed i think we all need to start interacting more with the AI's when they get out of hand... damn just remembered we have the illians on the board and they havn't even used Stasis yet.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Besides, if I support you, you might gain too much power. As my main enemy, I can't let that happen. My enemie's enemy is my ally and all that.

You would betray your principles for such a petty grudge?

Power? What power would I get, except that which others willingly give me? Unlike you, I have no standing armies of followers, willing to kill whoever gets in their way. I would not countenance the creation of an avatar, a golemn fit only to destroy entire cities.

My followers are far more peaceful than you.

Verdian has also just asked an interesting question in the other thread about how much protection he recieves if he worships one god over another. Having Mammon annoyed at him has tanked his economy so it is a serious question.

No it didn't.

Let's be clear on something: I haven't done anything to tank his economy. Everyone else did. My intervention was simple: I made two units, one of them his garrison unit, unfit to take risks in the wild. It could still explore, it could still fight one or two battles (thanks to natural Adventurer promotions). Past that, I added nothing and took away nothing except seven gold*, which isn't much to begin with.

What tanked his economy was the mountainload of free units that other people kewere giving him. Units he had to pay for. This is partly why I suggested making dummy civs, so that intervention-units can be supported by a third party player.


*I think: did we figure out how to change the gold amount in world builder?

My own view is similer to what i believe Onionsoilder stated. That if a god curses you, they curse you within their own precept. Thus you must work around it. Other gods can thus bless you with their own precept that will make up for it.

However i'm not sure if that would work in game. The God of nature could provide enough bounty for a specialist economy. The God of war could provide mercenaries for pillaging but only so much can be done.

Maintenence-free mercenaries, don't forget. Also could add the raider promotion.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Yes.

We have two separate problems at the moment, both of which need a solution.

One, the Grigori aren't making much money because their economy is in the tanker. That's the fault of people who gave him units he wasn't ready to pay for. Because he spurned me, I'm not inclined to help him either, or let others help him with buildings in my domain (any building the +money for +crime, pretty much, or would otherwise obviously be mine). I will not stand for those buildings until he makes proper apologies to me. Right now I'm the spurned god, and have no reason to help him.


Second, we have the gaps because of what other civilizations have been able to do in the meantime while he was suffering. That, too, is a gap needing to be overcome. You can lower their yields, such as deleting crops, gold, luxury resources. You can give them, too, a lot of units, and force them to fight eachother (this would work well for any civs that should be at war). So long as they're fighting, it's unlikely they'll expand much, giving him time to catch up.

Of course, also I gave a number of civs a market, in part to help them. That was my intervention, and to destroy those markets would require my consent. And my consent will require a price.

 

[Bootsiuv]

Dean didn't tank his economy, unless diseased, withered, and seven gold is enough to do that (and if that's the case, I'd say he has bigger problems).

Like he said, it was all of the free units. That was why I stated several times that he shouldn't receive units unless he's done something to earn them.

I gave him out regeneration promos, and then created my little fortress guys and the ancient forest around Sucellus tomb, none of which cost him any maintenance.

Now, we have to do what we can to help him out, without stepping on Mammon's toes. A mine on the gems might be helpful, as would a plantation resource (or, if he already has one, providing a plantation could work).

Let's just make sure we don't overcorrect and make his game too easy. Balancing these things may prove to be a little challenging, but with good communication we should be able to come up with some interesting ideas.

I would strongly advise against gifting him any more units unless the plot of your storyline absolutely depends on it. He has enough at the moment.

Thoughts?

 

[Vandal Warlord]

Dean didn't tank his economy, unless diseased, withered, and seven gold is enough to do that (and if that's the case, I'd say he has bigger problems).

Like he said, it was all of the free units. That was why I stated several times that he shouldn't receive units unless he's done something to earn them.

I gave him out regeneration promos, and then created my little fortress guys and the ancient forest around Sucellus tomb, none of which cost him any maintenance.

Now, we have to do what we can to help him out, without stepping on Mammon's toes. A mine on the gems might be helpful, as would a plantation resource (or, if he already has one, providing a plantation could work).

Let's just make sure we don't overcorrect and make his game too easy. Balancing these things may prove to be a little challenging, but with good communication we should be able to come up with some interesting ideas.

I would strongly advise against gifting him any more units unless the plot of your storyline absolutely depends on it. He has enough at the moment.

Thoughts?

Verdian has plenty of units, and does not need any more. More units will destory his already failing economy.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Kilimorph is the best to aid him with more resources. She is the Earth-mother, though I think it'd be better if she gave mining-resources rather than plantation resources.

Because he does have to catch up, as long as we intend to take part of it back, we can go easier on over-helping this time. Having multiple types of luxury goods until then not only will bost his commerce, but his happiness cap as well, something always hard for the Grigori.

Before we decide anything major, I suggest we wait for him to give his update. If he makes an apology to me, I intend to give him a luxury crop myself.

 

[Bootsiuv]

Agreed.

Let us wait then. I have a windshield to fix anyways....maybe I should actually do a little work, while I'm at work.

EDIT: Well, that was easy.....a stone chip is really worth driving forty five minutes to work on a Saturday.

Anyways, I really think we should get back to gifting him only heros or units which are extraordinarily important to a certain plot.

Giving him a quest, and then giving him all of the tools to complete it, is rather mundane. He should have to figure out how to complete the quest with the tools he himself is able to make.

Agreed?

 

[Lgaard]

Past that, I added nothing and took away nothing except seven gold*, which isn't much to begin with.

What tanked his economy was the mountainload of free units that other people kewere giving him. Units he had to pay for. This is partly why I suggested making dummy civs, so that intervention-units can be supported by a third party player.


*I think: did we figure out how to change the gold amount in world builder?

7 gold: I took away gold. Due to miscalculation it was 5, not 7. I hope it would not enrage Mammon too much.

I thought the same about unit maintanance costs, but the second thought was: if he goes exploring or barbarians start to spawn he will lose some of them quickly. In worst case - he may disband some. And, above all, I liked the dillema: "to plunder or not to plunder - that's the question".
Of course it's hard to make decision to disband Stevanson or his own son in law. That's a different side of the same coin.

 

[Onionsoilder]

1) As Mammon, I am amused at Cernunnos illogical defensiveness. As Dean, I am amused at it as well. And it's not a fallacy, it's holding Gerran to his word, whether he intended it or not.

I really hope you're just playing Devil's Advocate here and don't think that all forms of risk-taking are now outlawed. Or do you think eating should be outlawed because people might choke on their food? Birth because of complications? Sleeping because you can't defend yourself?

3)Anyone who wishes to interfere with my curse best be prepared for the costs it would entail. In my view, low healing for a bare few units is not a particularly vicious curse by any means.

I don't care how vicious a curse you can come up with. What I was talking about were these two rules in the compact.:

IV. Thou shalt not use your powers for cataclysmic destruction.

-Remember, less is more. Be subtle. It is far more interesting for everyone if you make subtle, interesting changes like forming a choke with mountains than if you just tear giant swathes of ice through my cities. I reserve the right to reject saves I think are unnecessarily apocalyptic.

IX. Thou shalt not directly undo another god's changes.

-Gods are not allowed to reverse the effects of an intervention without waiting for the update after the effects have been felt. This includes quests. In fact, you would do well to leave the other god's quests alone entirely. If you want me to do yours instead, make it more interesting or more lucrative

I'm certainly within my right to withdraw all forms of nature from Grigori lands until it turns into a freaking desert. Will I? No, because that would be stupid.

You can get around the maintenence costs with the free-unit promotion. (I think that's still in base FFH.) You can use that for 'Illian" units that should be with the Illians, but stationary for story purposes. Otherwise, you can use the barbarian faction for the 'wild' interventions that should be penalty-less kill fests.

There is no maintenance-free promotion in FFH, as far as I am aware. So no, this would not work.

One, the Grigori aren't making much money because their economy is in the tanker. That's the fault of people who gave him units he wasn't ready to pay for. Because he spurned me, I'm not inclined to help him either, or let others help him with buildings in my domain (any building the +money for +crime, pretty much, or would otherwise obviously be mine). I will not stand for those buildings until he makes proper apologies to me. Right now I'm the spurned god, and have no reason to help him.

That's fine with me, it really is. If you want to prevent markets, money changers, gambling houses, etc, I say go for it. However, I would ask that you don't curse everything in the game until Gerran follows you. Without preventing exploration, I think you're stepping over your precept - yes, it could be interpreted as a gamble, but other gods like Tali are generally in charge of those areas.

 

[Babale]

I guess that next intervention, I will add resources to the land until he can run an economy?

 

[Bootsiuv]

Well, the gems will be helpful. Perhaps a gold resource in his BFC wouldn't hurt either, but don't overdo it.

If enough gods help him in various ways, or alternatively, hinder other civs so he can play catch up, that should be sufficient.

Like Dean pointed out, we could always take some things away if we feel we've made it to easy for him.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

I really hope you're just playing Devil's Advocate here and don't think that all forms of risk-taking are now outlawed. Or do you think eating should be outlawed because people might choke on their food? Birth because of complications? Sleeping because you can't defend yourself?

Read back a few pages. I've already made clear what I consider gambles, and that definition is highly grounded on unnecessary risks and why they're done.

I don't care how vicious a curse you can come up with. What I was talking about were these two rules in the compact.:

Doesn't need to be vicious either. Merely... creative.

Anyone who thinks nerfing a heal rate for two units counts as cataclysmic really needs a refresher course on what cataclysms really are. It doesn't prevent him from doing anything, it just makes the costs of failure higher. It works well as an exploration unit. It can explore as many ruins as you want. It's still got Hero, and will be rampantly powerful One-v-One. It's just going to take longer, much longer, to recover from bad gambles.

I'm certainly within my right to withdraw all forms of nature from Grigori lands until it turns into a freaking desert. Will I? No, because that would be stupid.

Well, I'd certainly argue you are not. Free enough to take away forests, sure, but you aren't the god of Life, or Water, or scorchiness.

There is no maintenance-free promotion in FFH, as far as I am aware. So no, this would not work.

Then god-faction dummy civs look to be the way to go.

That's fine with me, it really is. If you want to prevent markets, money changers, gambling houses, etc, I say go for it. However, I would ask that you don't curse everything in the game until Gerran follows you. Without preventing exploration, I think you're stepping over your precept - yes, it could be interpreted as a gamble, but other gods like Tali are generally in charge of those areas.

Everything? Why would I do that?

Nothing I've done prevents him from doing anything.

 

[Bootsiuv]

I was unaware the god of scorchiness even existed....

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Here, let me put this ember in your eye so you can see...

 

[thomas.berubeg]

@ Dean:

has mammon's invasion of Oghma's vault been retconned from the game?

Thanks, Thomas

Not entirely. I don't thing many details about the invasion revealed from Kael's D&D games are true in FfH canon (Oghma's vault is not Erebus, Lita was not an angel of Oghma, Mardero is half mortal to avoid certain clauses of the Compact rather than half Angel of Oghma to make him immune t the memory loss from the mists, the Lanun don't sail in the mists, the Maelstrom is not the rift between Oghma's and Mammon's vaults, etc), but I believe that Kael has confirmed that the invasion still took place. I think the mists were still created there to make it harder for Mammon's demons to find that one great secret found in one of Oghma's hidden libraries. The Bestiary says that many of Oghma's own angels have betrayed him and joined Mammon.

 

[TheForestAuro]

I do not particularly think Dean's interventions were cataclysmic. With the amount of happy-daisy rewards that are being catapulted towards the player, it was about time that some mean-ery took place.

It seems every time in a DI game where a god gets on his heels and administers justice, the other gods tell him he's being mean.

I see no reason to feel pity for Gerran - if his game is in serious danger, we can help him with that later. Let him feel the effects of Mammon's rage.

 

[Onionsoilder]

I do not particularly think Dean's interventions were cataclysmic.

Nor do I. I'm just telling everyone to be careful about what they do - I've seen several different gods go overboard.

 

[Bootsiuv]

I was under the impression that we were sort of expected to do that.

For example, if the dude builds a city in what I said was a sacred forest, I would most certainly punish him in some fashion.

I did say his penalties were a little harsh, but that referred more to the original penalties which messed with techs. I also said he had the right to play the game as he saw fit.

I'm not even sure why this is still a big deal...the guy already played 50 more turns....for all we know Finnegan is dead.

 

[Bootsiuv]

I've actually had a bigger problem with all of the bonuses he recieved, tbh, which is why I didn't give him any of significance. Regeneration will wear off after they heal, so it's sort of a one shot deal.

I did provide him with a wonderful possible city location....what nestled in there with all of the ancient forests and deer....then I told him he couldn't settle there.

A little give and take is much more interesting than "here's four free units and some resources....now go kill this dude in a fort".

If he doesn't have to be ingenious in figuring out how to accomplish the tasks we set for him, then he's really only going through the motions.

Thats why I feel small boni (that word always makes me smile for some reason) are in order. If you give him a quest half the continent away and he completes it, then shower him with freebies...not before.

 

[Lgaard]

A little give and take is much more interesting than "here's four free units and some resources....now go kill this dude in a fort".

If he doesn't have to be ingenious in figuring out how to accomplish the tasks we set for him, then he's really only going through the motions.

Seconded. Let the game still have a strategic dimention.
If you want to help his economy for some reasons by giving him resources, go ahead. Put the gold vein to be mined when he has mining. And maybe not exactly infront of Gerren's house, but somewhere where his second (or third) city could grab it.
Want him to go somewhere? Give him hints how to get there, but do not reaveal the map. Exploration is such nice dimention of the game!
Etc.

 

[Onionsoilder]

I think you're right, he was given too much stuff. Heck, the only changes I made was giving Finnegan Woodsman I and II.

I still am annoyed about Finnegan though. As a reward for completing my assigned quest, I gave him Woodsman II and Courage. As a penalty for something Gerran said, Dean gave him Diseased and Withered, which completely negates the bonuses I gave him(as well as Regeneration, which was given by another god) and makes healing impossible. Literally impossible. He had a 0%/turn heal rate in the wilderness now.