Heroes

[strategyonly]

I am currently in the process of adding a Heroes system in C2C.

It would be like this:

Hero Units
- World Unit
- Only one can exist and once it dies it cannot come back.
- Can get a series of Hero promotions
- Example: Spartacus

National Units
- National Unit
- Limited amount of units per civ.
- Gets normal promotions.
- Example: Assassin

Normal Units
- Available to all civs.
- Can make unlimited amounts of these units.
- Gets normal promotions.
- Example: Axeman

Elite Units
- National Unit
- Limit 15 (can be rebuilt if they die)
- Can get special elite promotions (not the same as heroic).
- Example: Samurai

The difference between a normal national unit and the Elite units would be that you can make more elite units and they get special elite promotions.

See screenies below:

I will need more information as time goes on and help figuring out Which HEROES to add to each Civilization, if he/she is a Hero/National/Elite unit etc.

It will be more or less a little of World of Legends and FfH2 heroes system, if i can get it going correctly, that is.

 

[strategyonly]

OK just added NEW Achievement Buildings for only Heroes to be used.

• Agricultural
  Commercial
  Cultural
  Industrial
  Military
  Political
  Scientific
  Seafaring

 

[strategyonly]

I want the Heroes and such at a minimum of one of the best units for each civ.

 

[steampunk1880]

Vikings - Leif Ericson. One and a half or double times strength trireme that can travel on ocean squares. Maybe carry explorers/missionaries/great persons.

Something like that?

 

[mcookie83]

I am currently in the process of adding a Heroes system in C2C.

It would be like this:

Hero Units
- World Unit
- Only one can exist and once it dies it cannot come back.
- Can get a series of Hero promotions
- Example: Spartacus

National Units
- National Unit
- Limited amount of units per civ.
- Gets normal promotions.
- Example: Assassin

Normal Units
- Available to all civs.
- Can make unlimited amounts of these units.
- Gets normal promotions.
- Example: Axeman

Elite Units
- National Unit
- Limit 15 (can be rebuilt if they die)
- Can get special elite promotions (not the same as heroic).
- Example: Samurai

The difference between a normal national unit and the Elite units would be that you can make more elite units and they get special elite promotions.

See screenies below:

I will need more information as time goes on and help figuring out Which HEROES to add to each Civilization, if he/she is a Hero/National/Elite unit etc.

It will be more or less a little of World of Legends and FfH2 heroes system, if i can get it going correctly, that is.

At first, I have to say: Awesome Mod! You guys are making a real good job! Thanks for so much fun and so much trouble with my girlfriend! I've never played such a huge mod and I like it that it gets bigger and bigger!

I say yes to Heroes! I loved it to play with them in FfH. This is something I missed in this mod. And... if you need any help, just tell me (I have not so much freetime, but if I can do small things, let me know). I made some (mini-) mods for C2C v17, for example the "Aviation"-Mod by Orion. I made it modular including the "Titanium"-Bonus for the three Mine-Types and testing it now. I try to figure it out how to get it in the BUG-Mode-Bonus-Options... anyway.

Great Job, guys!

If you need help with "Heroes", just tell me...

 

[Arian]

Been here before. I hope this will give you some inspiration

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

There's only a problem with those heroes because the AI doesn't know how to use them and they are sitting on their butts in the capital

 

[Hydromancerx]

If people did not guess this is the big secret project that strategyonly has been waiting to reveal. Before the ex-Unique Units were going to be heroes but I recommended the new "elite" units and made those 4 categories that SO posted.

I love the idea of heroes, but I did not like the idea of there only being 1 samurai in the whole game. Which is why "elite" units are national units and not world units. The next question is what promotions should "elite" units get? Should they be general for all elite units or should be have specific promotions made just for that unit?

Within the modder's PMs we discussed Samuari's upgrading into Dynamos. While I am not sure if this is possible, it would be possible to give a special promotion to samurai to become a Dynamos. This may actually be a lot better since its easier to make a promotion. Other samurai specific promotions could be "Ronin" (a samurai without a master).

The possibilities are really endless. The questions is how far should we go. I suspect picking games like AOE or other mods would be helpful to find cool new promotions for elite units (as well as heroic ones).

 

[Koshling]

One general point I am curious about with the Heros. Since you onl get the one unit throughout the game, it somehow has to stay relevant as the units around it get stronger and stronger. Thus either:

1. Its bonuses are not related to its militray strength and so don't devalue as units get stronger; or
2. It gets massive promotions to its own strength (unlocked by techs I'd guess?) to keep it in line with other units; or
3. Something I haven't thought of...

Can you provide an example of how a hero born in 2000BC remains relevant in 2000AD?

 

[strategyonly]

Been here before. I hope this will give you some inspiration

There's only a problem with those heroes because the AI doesn't know how to use them and they are sitting on their butts in the capital

Never seen that before, where did you get that from? And thats why i am so glad Koshling is with us, for the AI part (hint hint). Plus i have gotten the approval of all the other modders authors to use their stuff also.

If people did not guess this is the big secret project that strategyonly has been waiting to reveal. Before the ex-Unique Units were going to be heroes but I recommended the new "elite" units and made those 4 categories that SO posted.

I love the idea of heroes, but I did not like the idea of there only being 1 samurai in the whole game. Which is why "elite" units are national units and not world units. The next question is what promotions should "elite" units get? Should they be general for all elite units or should be have specific promotions made just for that unit?

Within the modder's PMs we discussed Samuari's upgrading into Dynamos. While I am not sure if this is possible, it would be possible to give a special promotion to samurai to become a Dynamos. This may actually be a lot better since its easier to make a promotion. Other samurai specific promotions could be "Ronin" (a samurai without a master).

The possibilities are really endless. The questions is how far should we go. I suspect picking games like AOE or other mods would be helpful to find cool new promotions for elite units (as well as heroic ones).

Thx good info.

One general point I am curious about with the Heros. Since you onl get the one unit throughout the game, it somehow has to stay relevant as the units around it get stronger and stronger. Thus either:

1. Its bonuses are not related to its militray strength and so don't devalue as units get stronger; or
2. It gets massive promotions to its own strength (unlocked by techs I'd guess?) to keep it in line with other units; or
3. Something I haven't thought of...

Can you provide an example of how a hero born in 2000BC remains relevant in 2000AD?

When i had my Japanese Mythology mod, i had a Hero named "Tokugawa."
One of the things i did with him and alot of other units, was this, but it might might not work here? I had a smaller looking 1st version of him, then the next era, as he progressed thru the changes and he could upgrade to a little bigger Tokugawa, then again in the next era a larger and last one of him to upgrade to, that is one way, i could do it here?? Really haven't thought it completely through yet, that why i started all this because i know the public would have tons more ideas than me.

 

[Praetyre]

Sounds interesting... it would certainly give a great deal more "personality" to the units, though I'd like to see at least one for every civ...

Spoiler :

America
Lewis & Clark (Super Explorer unit with the ability to detect stealth units in a huge radius, dramatically increased chances for positive results from villages (and further increases of those existing positive results) and the capability to "discover" (plant) resources. Spawns with the discovery of Archaeology)
George Patton (Great General with huge number of existing promotions oriented towards the maximization of the powers and abilities of armored units, as well as superb experience gain boosts. Spawns during the first war with a civilization of equal or greater score to America after they discover Mechanized Warfare)
England
Francis Drake (To wooden ships and iron men what Patton is to steel tanks. His chief promotions are in enhanced manouverability, stealth and massive bonuses to pillaging and piracy. Spawns during the first war with a power of equal or greater score to England after they discover Gunpowder)
Bernard Montgomery (A master when it comes to desert and amphibious warfare, his experience in the trenches also serves him well in defensive urban combat. Spawns during the first war with a power of equal or greater score to England after they discover Mechanized Warfare)
Greece
Agamemnon (A good all rounder with both galley fleets and phalanxes, his real sting comes in his ability to totally ignore all walls when attacking enemy cities, giving him a massive advantage in urban combat. Spawns during the first war with a power of equal or greater score than Greece after the discovery of Bronze Working, assuming both powers have at least one coastal city and a combined total of at least 10 water-capable units for each involved belligerent.)
Leonidas (Unlike Agamemnon, his strength lies not in urban offensives, but in showing up the Fates themselves. The numerous all-around strength, movement and morale bonuses he grants to the men under his command increase in accordance with the relative size of the enemies army against his own. He emerges during the first war with a power whose score is at least 50% greater than that of Greece after the discovery of Iron Working.)
Japan
Isoroku Yamamoto (The Agamemnon of the diesel age, trading the urban defense bypass for +300% unit effectiveness against carrier units. Emerges during the first war with a power at least 25% higher in score than Japan after the discovery of Amphibious Warfare)

I'll add more if I can think of further descriptions and powers, but you get the basic idea.

 

[strategyonly]

Sounds interesting... it would certainly give a great deal more "personality" to the units, though I'd like to see at least one for every civ...

Spoiler :

America
Lewis & Clark (Super Explorer unit with the ability to detect stealth units in a huge radius, dramatically increased chances for positive results from villages (and further increases of those existing positive results) and the capability to "discover" (plant) resources. Spawns with the discovery of Archaeology)
George Patton (Great General with huge number of existing promotions oriented towards the maximization of the powers and abilities of armored units, as well as superb experience gain boosts. Spawns during the first war with a civilization of equal or greater score to America after they discover Mechanized Warfare)
England
Francis Drake (To wooden ships and iron men what Patton is to steel tanks. His chief promotions are in enhanced manouverability, stealth and massive bonuses to pillaging and piracy. Spawns during the first war with a power of equal or greater score to England after they discover Gunpowder)
Bernard Montgomery (A master when it comes to desert and amphibious warfare, his experience in the trenches also serves him well in defensive urban combat. Spawns during the first war with a power of equal or greater score to England after they discover Mechanized Warfare)
Greece
Agamemnon (A good all rounder with both galley fleets and phalanxes, his real sting comes in his ability to totally ignore all walls when attacking enemy cities, giving him a massive advantage in urban combat. Spawns during the first war with a power of equal or greater score than Greece after the discovery of Bronze Working, assuming both powers have at least one coastal city and a combined total of at least 10 water-capable units for each involved belligerent.)
Leonidas (Unlike Agamemnon, his strength lies not in urban offensives, but in showing up the Fates themselves. The numerous all-around strength, movement and morale bonuses he grants to the men under his command increase in accordance with the relative size of the enemies army against his own. He emerges during the first war with a power whose score is at least 50% greater than that of Greece after the discovery of Iron Working.)
Japan
Isoroku Yamamoto (The Agamemnon of the diesel age, trading the urban defense bypass for +300% unit effectiveness against carrier units. Emerges during the first war with a power at least 25% higher in score than Japan after the discovery of Amphibious Warfare)

I'll add more if I can think of further descriptions and powers, but you get the basic idea.

Not too fast YET, ok, i just really "FOR NOW" need way(s) to make it work IN C2C, then "we" can work on the rest, then i will need a "million" ideas of whom and when and such.

Thats really why i took the first "three posts." for more info of what and when stuff is happening.

 

[EldrinFal]

One general point I am curious about with the Heros. Since you onl get the one unit throughout the game, it somehow has to stay relevant as the units around it get stronger and stronger. Thus either:

1. Its bonuses are not related to its militray strength and so don't devalue as units get stronger; or
2. It gets massive promotions to its own strength (unlocked by techs I'd guess?) to keep it in line with other units; or
3. Something I haven't thought of...

Can you provide an example of how a hero born in 2000BC remains relevant in 2000AD?

When i had my Japanese Mythology mod, i had a Hero named "Tokugawa."
One of the things i did with him and alot of other units, was this, but it might might not work here? I had a smaller looking 1st version of him, then the next era, as he progressed thru the changes and he could upgrade to a little bigger Tokugawa, then again in the next era a larger and last one of him to upgrade to, that is one way, i could do it here?? Really haven't thought it completely through yet, that why i started all this because i know the public would have tons more ideas than me.

I think Upgrading the unit would be the most ideal, though would require the most work since it means changing the graphics of the unit through each era. I think that is what StrategyOnly was talking about. The other option is just accept that the heroic unit is good for a limited time only, which is how the Unique Units originally worked in vanilla Civ IV anyway.

For the Japanese Hero, Tokugawa is more a Great General, so I'd suggest Miyamoto Musashi-- (Miyamoto is the last name) famous, of course, for his development and use of the dual sword style.

 

[AIAndy]

I think Upgrading the unit would be the most ideal, though would require the most work since it means changing the graphics of the unit through each era. I think that is what StrategyOnly was talking about. The other option is just accept that the heroic unit is good for a limited time only, which is how the Unique Units originally worked in vanilla Civ IV anyway.

For the Japanese Hero, Tokugawa is more a Great General, so I'd suggest Miyamoto Musashi-- (Miyamoto is the last name) famous, of course, for his development and use of the dual sword style.

Maybe use the normal upgrade line. That would mean while not having special looks or special base stats any more, the unit would still keep the heroic promotions.

 

[robomani]

Can promotion force graphic on units? If so you could name a promotion after the hero you want and use it to keep the same graphic wile still upgrading the unit.

 

[EldrinFal]

Maybe use the normal upgrade line. That would mean while not having special looks or special base stats any more, the unit would still keep the heroic promotions.

The unit's Str will need continual upgrading to remain relevant. That was the issue Koshling raised. This is especially true when gunpowder comes around and units start jumping 5+ STR at a time.

 

[AIAndy]

The unit's Str will need continual upgrading to remain relevant. That was the issue Koshling raised. This is especially true when gunpowder comes around and units start jumping 5+ STR at a time.

What I meant was that the hero would upgrade to rifleman or similar then. So he would not be a special hero unit any more, but a normal rifleman with the extra heroic promotion line. But of course that would upgrade his base strength to rifleman level.

 

[EldrinFal]

What I meant was that the hero would upgrade to rifleman or similar then. So he would not be a special hero unit any more, but a normal rifleman with the extra heroic promotion line. But of course that would upgrade his base strength to rifleman level.

I wouldn't think into a common unit, but maybe the standard graphic might be ok to save on time. Heroes should always be a bit better than their contemporaries in base stats IMHO Especially considering they are lost forever if killed.

 

[Nevets_]

What about re-vamping the 'Warlord' units into Hero units. It's kind of what I always imagined them to be, anyway. Each Culture's Hero unit is a 'unique' version of the era-appropriate Warlord, same stats but with unique or special free promotions. That way you could upgrade them to the next level of 'stock' warlord when you get the right techs to keep the relevant, but they keep their unique promotions to differentiate them.

Ex:
Spartacus (same stats as Warlord Chief, requires Arena)
Free Promotions:
Slave Uprising (when conquering a city or raiding a village in an empire with Slavery Civic, you get free axeman&spearman units)
I am Spartacus (When Spartacus is 'killed' there is a 50% chance the unit respawns at 50% strength)

So for each Hero you would only need to copy a warlord stat block and create a couple promotions. You'd lose out on the having a unique button after the initial upgrade, but you wouldn't have to re-create graphics for all the units and it wouldn't increase the size of the mod.

Naval / Air heroes would need more work, but a 'flagship' system that works like the warlord system seems like a neat thing to implement anyway.

 

[Koshling]

Could also make the hero promotions things that effect more than just that one unit (might need some code support, but we can arrange that). Examples:

Mountain leader - this promotion already exists and allows the uni to lead entire stacks through mountains (before montaineering)

The healer line of promotions already effect the entire stack

As a generic system how about this (obviously needs code support but likely not too hard, except maybe to get the AI to use it well):

We introduce a new promotion line called(say) 'inspire', the definition of which references another (normal) promotion. Take 'first strikes' for example. The 'inspire' variation would manifest as 'inspire: first strikes' and its effect is to DYNAMICALLY apply the referenced normal promotion to the entire stack for so long as they remain stacked. This way we don't have to make a ton of new things up - we just implement the 'inspire' mechanism and everything else drops out automatically. Inspire line promotions would only be avaialble to heroes.

 

[strategyonly]

For the Japanese Hero, Tokugawa is more a Great General, so I'd suggest Miyamoto Musashi-- (Miyamoto is the last name) famous, of course, for his development and use of the dual sword style.

See this is why the Heroes part could be almost endless.

Ex:
Spartacus (same stats as Warlord Chief, requires Arena)
Free Promotions:
Slave Uprising (when conquering a city or raiding a village in an empire with Slavery Civic, you get free axeman&spearman units)
I am Spartacus (When Spartacus is 'killed' there is a 50% chance the unit respawns at 50% strength)

So for each Hero you would only need to copy a warlord stat block and create a couple promotions. You'd lose out on the having a unique button after the initial upgrade, but you wouldn't have to re-create graphics for all the units and it wouldn't increase the size of the mod.

Naval / Air heroes would need more work, but a 'flagship' system that works like the warlord system seems like a neat thing to implement anyway.

I really like the part of respawning??

Could also make the hero promotions things that effect more than just that one unit (might need some code support, but we can arrange that). Examples:

Mountain leader - this promotion already exists and allows the uni to lead entire stacks through mountains (before mountaineering)

The healer line of promotions already effect the entire stack

As a generic system how about this (obviously needs code support but likely not too hard, except maybe to get the AI to use it well):

We introduce a new promotion line called(say) 'inspire', the definition of which references another (normal) promotion. Take 'first strikes' for example. The 'inspire' variation would manifest as 'inspire: first strikes' and its effect is to DYNAMICALLY apply the referenced normal promotion to the entire stack for so long as they remain stacked. This way we don't have to make a ton of new things up - we just implement the 'inspire' mechanism and everything else drops out automatically. Inspire line promotions would only be available to heroes.

HUH, the "inspire" system is starting to intrigue me