[BTS] Hesha's Random Questions

[Hesha]

An AI will offer per turn that maxes out based on their empire's total population.
Since Catherine will only offer 2 per turn, that means she has between 20 and 29 population in her empire total.

Oh! So, that makes this whole exploit pretty much meaningless, doesn't it? I mean... jumping through hoops for what, maybe a maximum of 15-20 GPT when the player still has to shell out up two 3 figures for strategic resources is hardly a game changer. In the other savegame where I tried it, my GPT income when taxing at 100% was 436 - getting a maximum of 12 from the biggest AI hardly makes a difference there. That seems strange...

So the GPT maximum they offer has nothing to do with their GPT surplus per turn, but tather is 10% of their population rounded down?

I really don't get why this is such a big deal then and how this could possible cripple the AI or get Seraiel so worked up that he tried to get it banned on HoF games....

 

[sampsa]

I have never used this exploit and neither does Lain in his videos, so it's certainly not needed to beat deity. However, post-HR deity AIs will have several size 10 cities and maybe 80 pop by 1AD (on normal speed, on marathon way more of course). At that point 8gpt per sold resource is nothing to sneeze at and it will only go up.

 

[Hesha]

I have never used this exploit and neither does Lain in his videos, so it's certainly not needed to beat deity. However, post-HR deity AIs will have several size 10 cities and maybe 80 pop by 1AD (on normal speed, on marathon way more of course). At that point 8gpt per sold resource is nothing to sneeze at and it will only go up.

Maybe it's more relevant on standard size maps. I usually play small maps and getting a measely 12 GPT from Monty, who has conquered half of Roosevelt's America on top of having the largest expansion himself and all his cities at 15 to 19 pop, in 1725 is just completely irrelevant. I double checked, too, my GPT is 568, not 436. But this is post State Property, of course.

I guess 8GPT around 1 AD is okay, yes. Maybe I'm just disappointed because I was expecting a lot more (=whatever I give them). Well, on the upside, this won't even feel like cheating then, more like... getting them to pay a fair price.

But tell me again, how is this GPT maximum calculated for the AI? Because I have noticed that in that same game, Pacals maximum is 8, which he will give me, if I send him the money, but he already has another deal, where he pays me 8 for silver. Does that mean I could get 16 out of him in a single deal, if I cancel the other one? Or does it mean he will do as many deals for 8 GPT as he can afford?

 

[Hesha]

Another question: Is there a way to speed up culture-flipping of a city? Darius has settled right next to my capital and the city has 88% my culture, my share is increasing AND this has been the case for several turns. Also, the two other AIs have just teamed up against Darius and declared war, so... I'm not really that worried about pissing him off. He was the most advanced cit, too, so it's good riddance, if he suffers a tiny bit

 

[Hesha]

Looks like starting revolts with spies does not help. I've managed to get the city to revolt about 6 or 7 times, but then again, it was only at 53% my culture then. I guess they did catch up.

Yet another question: I am playing as Mansa at the moment (rolled him, honest to God!) and I have some grassland river dyes. No I'm wondering... I'm about to research Calendar and it looks like a plantation would yield the same money as a town, but without having to wait another 35/38 turns. So in the long-run the plantation would be better (well, depending how much I value worker turns, I guess). In the long run, however, towns get various bonuses, like the one from printing press or from civits (I think one gives additional commerce and one give a hammer?). So in the long run towns are better. But then again, by having towns on the dyes you lose the option of trading them. So if you consider that you will get at least, say, 3 gpt when trading dyes... that makes up for what you lose in comparison with the towns, doesn't it?

My plan originally was to build a plantation on the least developed cottage (hamlet or early stage village), and keep towns on the others, but now I'm not so sure anymore, because of trade...

 

[earthy]

Do you have other river grassland tiles you can cottage instead? If so that's what I would do. The cottages will take a long time just to match the value of the plantation, and commerce now is more important than marginally more commerce later I think.

 

[Gumbolt]

City flipping is all about tiles you control. You have to control more than 75% of his cities tiles. Even then the chance of revolt is each 20 turns. If it revolts more than twice I think the city should flip. I have not heard of cities flipping by doing revolts by using spies. Not sure that would work. The percentage figure at the middle of the city does not mean the city will revolt to you.City flipping is not a good game strategy. It rarely works as the AI other cities will stop you getting enough culture.

I think someone already answered you about building cottages on resources. It pends on map and what AI you have available to trade resources to. If you can trade it away for 5-6 gold then you should be building a plantation. If you need the happiness it may be better to build a plantation. Before calendar a cottage will work very well. Play the map. Don't just beeline calendar.

 

[drewisfat]

@Hesha the most you can get from an individual resource is (AI's population)/10, and I trust Kait that it's rounded down. Usually the AI won't advertise that price though. If say, Shaka would theoretically trade 8 gpt, he'll show available anywhere from 0-8. This can be super annoying if Shaka shows 5gpt, and you think about waiting for him to show the full 8, and then next turn it goes down to 4gpt instead. And from our perspective the gpt available is basically RNG. If you subsidize with enough GPT they'll always be available to give away that max amount, which again you could conceivably get anyways. I suppose it's controversial for two reasons:
- If you make a lot of resource trades even if you're not getting more than what is possible with good RNG, in practice you'll wind up with more gold than waiting around for the stars to align. However, I'd point out there is still a cost in the subsidy and worker turns here, and think overall it makes games more equal by limiting RNG on something where frankly RNG doesn't really belong.
- Part of the intent behind the AI not always displaying its max GPT limit for sale is to prevent the AI from spiraling into economic hardship. In practice imo though, this is a somewhat unnecessary double buffer, since its available GPT is already tied to pop, and the resources should allow the AI's cities to grow even bigger, and the profit from that should be enough to cover the GPT expense, especially with AI bonuses. Theoretically though, you could find an AI that has happy problems, and instead max trade him a bunch of health resources, which won't help the AI unless he gets more happiness, and tank the AI's tech ability in this way. But like I said, I have yet to encounter a situation where this seemed useful. You would have to have a lot of resources and the AI would have to have few resources. Runaway AIs almost inherently have a lot of resources, so you won't have enough novel ones to tank them in this way. Gimping a tiny AI seems like a weird move in a FFA game with tech trades. Also you'd get a lot less GPT from the smaller AI than from maxing out trades with the largest AIs first.

But yeah, it's not going to be that useful on a small map. Again, part of the reason I like it is the trick somewhat equalizes the imbalance of map size. Here's an image to what max Resource trades can look like in a more optimal setting: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ps-prepare-to-die.515022/page-5#post-12927643

If you can trade the resource, even for just GPT, it's always better to acquire the resource than build a cottage over it. However, a lot of calendar resources especially are clumped together. If you see that you have multiple dye, and perhaps the AI does too, you can make an educated guess that you won't be able to trade all of them, and put a cottage on 1 or 2. This allows you to get utility out of it pre-calendar, and a higher yield out of it long-term. If the situation changes (like you discover a new continent of AIs devoid of dye) you can always put a plantation back over them later.

 

[Hesha]

Thank you all! I should have supplied a screenshot. I keep thinking it's unnecessary, but then it is

Here you go:

Spoiler :

As you can see, there are four sources of Dyes, all are cottaged (I figured that's a good idea, because that way my cottages get Mansa's FIN bonus from day 1), three have villages, two of which are riverside and one has a hamlet (the one in the W).

So I wanted to definitely put a plantation on the one 1S of Timbuktu, as it's the least valuable and this way I get one set of Dyes for happiness (or to trade for another happiness resource, which works out the same plus I get relationship bonuses - then again, Dyes have synergy with Theatres, so I might want to keep one for myself.

Now, based on what you see, do you think I should tear down all the villages/hamlets and build plantations. Or just some?


Regarding the culture flipping, I just got my first GArt from Music (and a GE from Mids/HG in the same turn). I haven't had a Golden Age yet, but to be honest, I feel overwhelmed with all the preparation people have suggested I should make before I trigger a GA, like maxing out on specialists, filling the granaries... I wish there was a guide on that somewhere. So my plan was originally, to use the GArt to culture bomb, there are three locations I am considering for this:

Spoiler Capital :

If I culture bomb my own capital, it will take the three tiles directly N of my cap and also slightly boost my cultural superiority in his city. As you can see 9 tiles are already owned by me, 12 by the AI (if water tiles don't count, it would be 6 owned by me, 10 by the AI). If taking the tiles within the BFC is most important, it might be better to fire the culture bomb in my city NNW of Gordium:

Spoiler Walata :

I assume that if I fire the culture bomb in Walata, to take at least 2 tiles from Goridum, the desert and the one SE of that. That would bring the ratio down to 12:9 in my favour or 9:7, if only land tiles count. It would also almost certainly let me take over Khoisan in the N, which Darius just took from barbs, because I was to slow/lazy to take it first. I was actually very close to take it by culture (like, a turn or two), so I hadn't planned to take it by force. I think this would probably be the best use, provided culture bombing makes ANY sense. Room for settlements is scarce on this continent, the peninsula with the barb archers there is the only remaining space I am aware of.

There is a third place I am considering:

Spoiler Kumbi Saleh :

If I fire the culture bomb here, I will take Suleiman's iron (the swordsman are sitting on it atm). He has two sources - I have no iron at the moment. And no horses, only copper. I would take horses from Gordium, though.

What do you think? I have a gut feeling that using the culture bomb instead of the GA is not optimal play, but it sure as hell would be more rewarding in terms of enjoyment, if I get two cities to flip from a single GArt.


My plan for the GE was to insta-build the TGL in Walata after whipping the Lib there. Does that make sense or is it the wrong city for that? My plan was to build a bunch of farms up there, use the clams and lake to support a lot of specialists and of course also the gold to create commerce.

 

[sampsa]

Culture bomb is generally a horribly bad idea, absolute waste of GP. Only if you are sure you can flip a really good city (that would be hard to acquire via war) it becomes some kind of an option I guess. Golden age on the other hand will win you so much everything ( -points, , even some )

I haven't had a Golden Age yet, but to be honest, I feel overwhelmed with all the preparation people have suggested I should make before I trigger a GA, like maxing out on specialists, filling the granaries...

It's certainly not rocket science. Grow the cities you plan to run specialists in (usually 3 I'd say) to /-cap. Fill the food bar if the city is going to run a big -deficit working only +4-tiles and specialists. Often you can't optimize everything and just go with what you have. You'll get a feel for this after doing it many times, so you should start doing it asap.

edit: Lain does an early AD golden age in many of his games, I'm sure it's easy to find examples there.

edit:

for example

 

[Hesha]

Thank you! That makes sense. Which means I am not ready for the GA, so I should sit on my GP for a while? That always seems like such a waste, but I guess it's much better than wasting them on something pointless.

Another question: I am going to settle this peninsula now. I have two different settlement plans. I guess all city placements are more or less equally worthless, I'm just building the cities for a) trade routes and b) FIN-bonus coastal tiles / cottages. Do you think the yellow or the red plan is better? Or are they both horsehocky?

Spoiler :

 

[sampsa]

Which means I am not ready for the GA, so I should sit on my GP for a while? That always seems like such a waste, but I guess it's much better than wasting them on something pointless.

Absolutely. Use him only when you are ready. And you don't need to spawn him before you can launch the GA...

Another question: I am going to settle this peninsula now. I have two different settlement plans.

There is no food, so no city. You can easily get a big tech lead with the help of GA and attack someone.

 

[Hesha]

There is no food, so no city. You can easily get a big tech lead with the help of GA and attack someone.

I'm aware of that rule (no food - no city), I just thought that when you have the GLH more (coastal) cities are more or less a no-brainer, because they pay for themselves.

And settling there so Darius doesn't, is also not valid reasoning then, I guess?

By the way, since population is such an important indicator for how much I can get from an AI in GPT - there any way to look up their pop prior to paper and buying their map?

 

[lymond]

turn on resource bubbles when you post screenshots. If there is no food over there, then no point settling those cities. Maybe one later if there is some resources worth grabbing. All I see I think is an incense. But your priorities should definitely not be settling crap cities. Focus on what you have, and as sampsa says use a GA to put yourself into a position to attack someone and take good cities.

Worrying about a dinky city on your outskirts is also not doing you any favors. If it revolts a couple of times it may flip. The Persian guy may even gift it to you. His revolt risk is also relative to the units he has in the city as well. If there is no revolt risk the city is not going to flip any time soon.

Personally, I don't cottage calendar resources..well maybe now and then depending on what it is and needs. I usually farm them early. I'd say that in your case on a small map you might create plantations on enough of them to use them for trading, relative to # of "long-term" trading partners, less 1 copy for yourself.

Culture bomb vs. Golden Age is a extremely huge differential in benefit. Kill them don't Culture bomb them

 

[sampsa]

And settling there so Darius doesn't, is also not valid reasoning then, I guess?

No. You should always encourage AIs to settle very weak cities, if possible.

By the way, since population is such an important indicator for how much I can get from an AI in GPT - there any way to look up their pop prior to paper and buying their map?

Not that I know of.

I just thought that when you have the GLH more (coastal) cities are more or less a no-brainer, because they pay for themselves.

But the thing is you shouldn't be thinking about settling very weak cities when you can capture strong cities.

 

[Hesha]

I just occurred to me, that I am way to peaceful in this game. I guess I always try to win without having to wage war, because war is tedious.

But you are right, of course. Catherine is going to annihilate Darius anyways, so I might as well take a few of his cities. I'm surprised how many troops he keeps stationed along my border while getting the horsehocky kicked out of him on the other side of his empire.

Thanks!

Oh, regarding the resource bubbles: I turned them off for the first series of screenshots, because they were in the way of other information / blocking tile yields, which seemed more important at the time and then forgot to turn them back on! Sorry about that.

 

[sampsa]

I never realized the game can be won without waging war. I think you really should study a typical 4-city construction attack. It doesn't rely on having certain resources and will always work on say emperor, if done half-decently. One with saves before the attack and after it can be found here https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/shadowgame-help-me-move-up-to-immortal.644867/#post-15430850.

 

[lymond]

Yeah, the idea of playing this game peacefully just does not register with me. Being aggressive pays off substantially in this game, and I don't find it tedious at all.

 

[Gumbolt]

Looking at your picture. Why have you built so few cottages around your capital? It's 100ad and you have 7 grassland tiles with no cottages. 2 of these are river grasslands. With a finanical Ai I would be running grassland over mines and be using nearby cities to run cottages. You had 2 nearby cities that could of been helping with cottages. Not sure either city did at all? How many workers had you built? Maybe too few.

This focus on culture bombing is a waste. You rarely ever take cultural tiles away from the AI. The only situation where I might do it is if a city is in revolt for 10 turns and I want to quickly grab the land. E.g. a captured AI capital.

Some of your city choices here are very poor.I get that you built the GLH but cities with no food resources are unlikely to help your empire much. You didn't need that wonder with a financial civ.

I wonder if you didn't expand fast enough here. You seem to have settled very close to your capital. On a tightly pack map sometimes you need to grab the best city spots first.

You have no metal or horse here? A lot of mistakes here. If you had seen the horse resource I would of settled this and planned an HA rush if you were boxed in.

Don't under estimate a Skirmisher rush. They can be great in numbers.

 

[Hesha]

How would you guys prioritise getting to Optics in this scenario vs. gettin Civil Service / Paper / Education?