High Score - 15M+ : Pre-game Discussion

[Pedro78]

It's very hard to weigh EXP vs PHI because their benefits don't come at the same period. I did think about chopping one forest + 1whip without EXP, but you still lose either some food or one forest + 10-12 worker turns (depending on how many are used to chop the forest). I'd say this is around 1.5 Axemen per city that you're missing out on very early in the game. When you have 6 cities, that's ~9 more Axemen very early on when playing with EXP. Playing with PHI will give later city captures, a later WBE & GPfarms setup, and ultimately in slower research.

Fewer slavery turns is not a big deal if you time your whips carefully before & after the caste windows.

In most regular games PHI is far superior to EXP, but here it does somehow feel like another "nice-to-have". I'm also curious to see the impact of giving up on FIN -- you're going to be working a lot of coast before Sushi.

Not to mention that EXP worker whips are pretty darn efficient for OF-failgold when you don't have a forge. And that EXP has some use after Sushi (although that's merely a "nice-to-have") whereas PHI doesn't.

 

[WastinTime]

good arguments, I'm getting closer to buying into EXP...
but:
- if you have an abundance of free workers, and forests, then you can get the granaries and all the axemen you need. You don't want to over-produce military early in the game.
- I never build a single worker, so EXP's worker benefit is lost.

But, if I'm playing on Arid instead of temperate, then I may not have the forests to burn on granaries.

Here's my final analysis unless you can solve problem with non-PHI coming up...
Civ is often a nicely balanced game. In this case the EXP or PHI strategies are probably both relatively equal when it comes to producing the GS's I need. EXP would probably be the easier, less frustrating way to play because it doesn't rely on every city having a forest to burn. So I should play EXP except for one problem.

Spoiler :

The GE

Mining Inc will be required. Not necessarily at record speed, but before T300 I'd hope.
EXP can keep up with GS production by getting 1 extra population, but that doesn't work for the GE.
I already outlined a plan to get 100% pure GE with PHI @3000 GPP. I'll be triple bulbing Biology when I get to 2700.
What does EXP do? 3000 GPP is probably not reachable, so the only option is to get it at 300 gpp which pushes Biology to 3000.
I think you will have trouble getting it at 300 and then getting a random GP somewhere at 600 to start the GAge. It'd be nice to start the GAge around T210 but 220 might be ok. I'm going to aim for T200.

 

[Pedro78]

Sounds tricky. Why not tech Music for the great Artist? If you give the prereqs for Philo bulb to Mansa as soon as possible (CoL+Medi+Maths&Alpha), there's a very good chance that you'll be able to trade for Philo fairly quickly, so going for Music doesn't slow you down all that much. Then it's possible to get the GE @300GPP as you did in your space game iirc.

What is your target date for Sushi? I'd also keep in mind that when playing on Arid (less forests) and without FIN, "natural" research is going to be slower than with the Inca.

Also, wouldn't it be a good idea to "waste" a golden age early if you go for music? Some cities will be able to run specialists very early, and you won't need any GA after Sushi. Could even launch the first GA on ~T180 -- the extra GPP & civic switches could allow you to get a 3rd golden age pre-Sushi. Requires very fast early conquest but I think your space game could have met that timing. I'm not sure whether this is doable, but I think it should at least be considered.

 

[WastinTime]

I don't think Music can happen fast enough. I need MC, Aes, and Calendar. I don't even bother with Philo, I just plan to build Paya. Adding Lit and Music to that is tough. In may space game, I also did Feudal, Machinery, Guilds, Banking for Knights and Merc. All before the GAge.
I suppose if I give up Merc I can do Music. But if I want those Knights I'm so close to Banking.
But I was sorta already giving up on the idea of Merc in order start the GAge early.

Sushi target is tough. T260 should be easy. 250 likely. 240 is my dream target.

 

[Pedro78]

You don't build NE/GLib? And how much does getting Music really delay Guilds & Merc, 4-5 turns? Music is ~3500 and you should be doing 500+ bpt around T180. And you're not going to switch into Merc before the golden age anyway. Kinda hard for me to assess the whole timing as I never play Marathon, but it looks as though the opportunity cost of Music isn't that big.

 

[WastinTime]

You don't build NE/GLib

NE will just corrupt my gene pool. GLib would be nice, but I'm not sure if it's worth it. The 2700gpp GS arrives 1 turn sooner? Then it's obsolete already. And if I whip pop to get it then that's just less scientists. I used it in the space race, but that was around 6000gpp.

 

[fjordan]

I would think it would be far easier to shave of a couple of turns in the first 100 than in the last part of the game. In your space game it took tremendous effort to win just one turn. So would a nice-to-have earlier warrior not win more turns than any trait could ever get? I would really focus on traits and starting techs that give you a headstart and not worry about endgame at all.

 

[WastinTime]

I would really focus on traits and starting techs that give you a headstart and not worry about endgame at all.

I'm not focusing on the end game, am I? do you get that impression? I'm doing all I can to get the earliest sushi date. Once you get that, then end game plays itself. You just spread execs as fast as the game limits allow.
So, does fast granaries get me to sushi faster? or does it just save on forests. Does a starting warrior get me a worker steal faster enough to affect my sushi date?
PHI still feels to me like the biggest turn-saver. Unless! The GS's come so fast that I can't finish the other manual research at the same speed.

 

[Pedro78]

Another thing you gotta keep in mind is that the game settings won't be the same as with your BC space game:

• Huge map (techs cost more)
• Arid climate (less forests)
• Non-FIN leader (slightly lower bpt)

This means that you'll most likely be teching slower, leaving more breathing room to get the GS. But as in a perfect world the 3rd Biology GS is born on the turn before you complete Lib, so the real issue is to find the optimal timing.

But maybe the easiest answer to the PHI vs. EXP question is..

Spoiler :

After digging in your BCSpace saves, I'm pretty sure that HC will get you a better Sushi date than either Joao or Sulei. He just synergizes too well with these settings. Iirc you chopped/whipped Oracle in 13 cities in this game -- no other leader can come close to this. And the IMP post-sushi benefits are not that big because with Kremlin a Settler is 2pop, no matter if you're IMP or not.

Now if you don't want to play HC this time, I still think Joao is slightly superior to Sulei (especially for the reasons above), but both can probably get a good Sushi date in different fashions (playing with PHI being slightly less stressful because of the GE)

 

[WastinTime]

But maybe the easiest answer to the PHI vs. EXP question is..

I thought you were going to say

Spoiler :

Peter
(sorry, no dramatic image. I'm too lazy)

That would bring me full circle back to my original choice.

My response was going to then there ^ ^, but you got me thinking....

What the big deal with IMP anyway? I've done 2 test games now. In both, I conquered 7-8 cities, and I could have done more. However, I got lucky with copper in my BFC, so I didn't really need IMP to settle horse/copper. If I do an extra stack of axes instead of several settlers, I'll get 15+ cities by T150.
I was looking forward to settling my own into a nice efficient, low-maintenance empire, but maybe that's just nice-to-have.
My biggest argument for IMP was that I get to place cities 3 tiles apart. Pack them in from the start, but!...what if I can eliminate that advantage...

Prepare for your mind to be blown.
(I'm just making this up now as I type, so let's see if I run into any snags)

Once at sushi, exec spread is needed to ~500 cities, right? But, what if the sushi cities did not necessarily include, say, the main 50 cities? What if most are just whipped down to size 1 and given away to the AI? I can only settle 75.9% of the map. Why use all the original cities' area? I already know I have to get all the islands, then only a portion of the mainland. It's not like I've got a lot of buildings invested in those cities. Likely just a granary. The AI land might have twice as many farms than I have--especially with my plan to use farming opponents. Just abandon my start area!

Or, I use the area I start in, but I selectively raze any city that's not placed well. If it has some food, I use the city for a while. Maybe a long while--all the way the up til Sushi, but I don't waste time spreading an exec there. Since I don't have those nasty Terraces building up culture, I should be able to give some cities to the AI and let them get enough culture so the city is raze-able.

- I'd have to keep certain wonders, but not many.
keep: hangingG, Hagia, Kremlin
give away: oracle, Taj, Paya, MoM, Mids, G.Lighthouse, even HangingG can go after I have enough health from Future tech. even Kremlin eventually (keep until it's obsolete), Colossus after obsolete or in STRIKE mode. GLib. Geez, almost all wonders can be destroyed/gifted. Razing will be tough with all that culture.

I think one problem with this new idea is how to generate sushi execs. The old way uses a combo of whip overflow and/or chop to spread them in a wave around the mainland. Only 1 or 2 per city. (3-4 out of the HQ). Worse case, a city just whips an exec for 2 pop (using kremlin+forge). Not a problem when you have 50+ developed cities that can handle a whip. But now I'm considering only using 10 or 20 of those. A bunch of freshly settled size 1's will not be helpful.

Cities have to be 5 tiles apart or less to spread instantly (pre-railroad. and even after RR, I don't want to waste worker turns on RRs. I want to farm.)
So the problem here is if I have a city 4 or 5 tiles away, I'll often want to raze that one and place cities 3 tiles away and 6 tiles away.
This makes the initial wave of exec spread very complicated.
I think it's doable.

Summary:
I case you didn't follow that, my idea is to eventually raze and/or permanently gift away a large number of early cities that were poorly settled.
This lessens one of the advantages of IMP. Makes the whole trait more of a nice-to-have.
The challenge is to maintain a nice, efficient, initial sushi spread.

 

[WastinTime]

Imagining Peter again...

PHI and EXP would really work well together to get those GS's on an arid map.
It would allow me to settle/capture non-forested cities (think multi-seafood, but also arid maps have a lot of floodplains). Then get those cities big fast enough for the GS plan.
I'd have to 8=>4 pop whip settlers if I want max overflow for wonderbread gold. Ouch. Remember Kremlin comes after sushi.

But as in a perfect world the 3rd Biology GS is born on the turn before you complete Lib,

Not quite. Compass ruins the Bio bulb, so after bulbing Biology, you have to research/trade for : Compass, Optics, then Lib=>Medicine.
It's not likely the AI will have those to trade as early as I need them. However, in my space game, Peter did get Compass from a hut.

So Sushi is likely 3 turns after the 2700gpp GS.
Chaining massive beaker overflows on these 3 techs was how I once got Communism in only 3 turns IIRC, then Kremlin 1t after. I'll want to repeat that.

 

[dutchfire]

Wonders count for score right? So in principle you don't want to raze wonder cities and you want to capture them back on the last turn if you've gifted them away. Or is the wonder score very low?

 

[Anysense]

Wonders score almost nothing. On the other hand, population is ludicrously overrated and scores around 80% even normal games, where you don't overgrow your cities for score.

 

[WastinTime]

Correct, wonders score almost nothing, and Correct, I'd try to capture them back on the last turn--for both the wonder points and the population. Every little bit counts on the way to 15M. However, the problem I'll have is STRIKE. I'll need a city within 6 tiles (10 tiles using a railroad) to capture using a unit that was just built.

More on Peter:
He starts with Hunting That means a scout which is bad for worker stealing, but also Hunting is not a critical tech. I want to get granary, whips, and chops.
I suppose that scout could pop a free warrior and an extra free tech. Hunting can be ok if you have early deer, fur, and/or Ivory. I could generate multi-fur starts.

 

[Pedro78]

Yeah I'm not a fan of Peter here -- would need a lot of hut-luck to make up for his bad starting techs/unit.

Another thing that I'm not a big fan of is using the "farmers" instead of the usual suspects. How many free farms are you actually going to get, when most AIs will be dead before T250? None of them will have CS yet so they'll only farm where there's freshwater. Compared to a "standard" AI, you would probably average at most one more free farm per city. Otoh, using the usual super-Gandhi team, you'll most likely get to Sushi a couple of turns faster (weaker opponents & more trades). The difference might only be 1-2 turns, but it will still outweigh the handful of free farms you'd get otherwise.

get all the islands, then only a portion of the mainland

selectively raze any city that's not placed well

Not sure what turn you plan to finish this game, but I'm not sure it's optimal to settle every island and spread Sushi, mainly because you can spread twice as fast to any mainland city. It might be better to get "only" 400 cities (grabbing a much bigger part of the mainland) and finish many turns earlier.

Btw, about the late game..

Spoiler :

You could make sure that all the remaining mainland cities are controlled by a single AI, found Cereal Mills, spread it to every city of his and gift them all your Corn/Wheat in order to get more points for the final captures, right? Or simply found CM and gift them the HQ city? Not sure if that's new or has already been done before.

 

[AcaMetis]

Once at sushi, exec spread is needed to ~500 cities, right?

~500 cities

Speaking as someone who recently completed a game with ~160 settled cities, only ~40 of which I actually cared about:

On the subject of Peter's starting techs: How important is it that you're able to build Warriors? Without Hunting you can build Warriors so long as you don't have Iron, Military Science (Grenadiers), Rifling (Rifleman) or Railroad (Machine Guns). Of course without Iron, Archery and Rifling you'll be limited to Muskets and trebs at best, but maybe that's a good opportunity to use Suleiman's Janissaries and their +25% against anything that would be defending a city?

Or just gift away your Iron/smash the mine when you need it, but I think Suleiman is a good choice for a leader and I like to believe that his UU/UB will end up coming into play in some way .

 

[WastinTime]

I think bronze will obsolete Warriors if you have hunting

 

[Anysense]

Doesn't Engineering+iron obsolete warriors? That is pikes replace them just like spears but they don't require hunting.

 

[elmurcis]

This is almost like Huayna 3rd trait - can build warriors same time with Axes/Spears... And than there is Greece with UU that covers weakness vs Chariots but starts with Hunting so can't have warriors+Phalanx same time. Part of game that feels unfair

 

[Noble Zarkon]

This is almost like Huayna 3rd trait - can build warriors same time with Axes/Spears

Agreed, as @Dhoomstriker said:-

The fact that the Quechua is a Unique Unit in and of itself also makes this fact unfairly strong. For one, you can connect Copper or Iron and still build cheap Warrior-replacement Military Police Units alongside of Swordsmen, Axemen, and Spearmen, due to the Unique Unit not immediately obsoleting, which is a feat that other Civs can only replicate if they avoid learning Hunting (except with being unable to build Spearmen). You can even build Quechuas alongside of Pikemen if you avoid Civil Service.