"High-Visibility Low-Clutter" resources.pcx

[anarres]

cracker, you need to chill out.

From what you say everyone who plays a full game mod is a "cheater". I for one think your choice of words is wholly inappropriate, and your comments about it "sucking away human resources from positive things we are doing" is just nonsnese, and unfair to say the least.

DrAlimentado has not "had a negative impact" on anyone at CFC, except maybe you, since you seem to be the only one who cares.

I hope you stop calling people cheaters and you think about what peole bring to CFC and why, then maybe try to encourage it instead of stamping on anything that isn't to your liking.

 

[Dr Alimentado]

Ummm, Cracker, I don't understand why we are in conflict over this

Let me clarify, if this mod (but why only this mod??) is deemed a cheat in GOTM that's fine, I have no problem with this. However, this is not the GOTM forum and I suspect the majority of people reading the civ3 forums are not GOTM players.

Your comments read as a blanket statement that people using this mod in ANY game, solo, pbem, whatever, are cheaters. If that is your intention I stand by my previous statement, that IMO people should not be made to feel like cheaters for using mods of this type (except of course in GOTM games, in which case they should follow the rules for GOTM.)

Nowhere in your posts on this thread have you made it clear whether you are talking about GOTM only, I have tried to be clear that I am talking about NON-GOTM games only. So let me ask you directly, are you talking about GOTM games only or are you making a broader comment? If you are only talking about GOTM games then it seems a little arrogant of you to assume that they are the only civ3 games anyone plays.

Let me state again (with more clarity I hope):

So go ahead people, UNLESS you are playing GOTM or another competitive game (in which case follow the appropriate rules obviously) use these mods and do not consider yourself a cheater.

Please believe me, I am not trying to undermine or subvert the GOTM rules. I am trying to redress the fact that you seem to be equating using this mod with hacking the savegame or using save-reload in a solo/pbem game. I feel this is unwarrented.

I might add that comments like this;

Originally posted by cracker
Unfortunately Dr. Alimentado your actions here are irresponsible and harmful to others.

I take offence to, as I feel it is you that needs to qualify your statements better, not the other way around.

 

[Dr Alimentado]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy

You need to set your personal opinions aside. Not everyone wants to play the game the same way you do.

I don't see what the problem is if someone wants to use this for their own games, or games where all the participants are aware of this. It is up to the participants to decide what is allowed and what isn't. And in that sense it is NOT a cheat.

The world does not revolve around the GOTM.

Agreed

Cracker, you appear to be in a minority of one. If you want further proof I will ask all my pbem opponents to weigh in on whether they consider it a cheat or not.

You know if you had left out the invective and said, "this looks great but would unfortunately be a cheat in GOTM - any chance of doing a GOTM version with less-revealing edges?" I would have been happy to do so.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Originally posted by Dr Alimentado

I would have been happy to do so. As it is I'll wait until someone I can respect puts that question to me.

Well, since SkankyBurn's smiley graphics are coming under fire due to the same problems (the smiley sticks out under the FOW), then it would be nice if someone could make graphics that makes the resources more visible, while not giving the player any extra advantage. But the graphics are awfully small as it is, this could be difficult to do. The wheat, by default sticks a little bit out from under the fog.

I know there are a few others that would appreciate it, if you wanted to do this and keeping the resources looking great like you have.

 

[cracker]

Sorry Dr Alimentado,

This is not a vote and having 73 individuals who agree with a cheat raise their hands and say we agree with it being OK is like asking the same group to vote on if pot should be legal and distributed free at the library.

We are working to implement a non-cheat version of the graphics as well as some detection systems. It just measn that there are one or two other priority things that we have to drop in order to deal with this exploit issue that could have been resolved here by attention to detail.

 

[cracker]

Originally posted by anarres
From what you say everyone who plays a full game mod is a "cheater".

This is not what I am saying at all anarres. You have confused the cheating protion with the graphics portion of the issue.

 

[Dr Alimentado]

Originally posted by cracker
Sorry Dr Alimentado,

This is not a vote and having 73 individuals who agree with a cheat raise their hands and say we agree with it being OK is like asking the same group to vote on if pot should be legal and distributed free at the library.

We are working to implement a non-cheat version of the graphics as well as some detection systems. It just measn that there are one or two other priority things that we have to drop in order to deal with this exploit issue that could have been resolved here by attention to detail.

Why are you still equating ALL civ games with GOTM games??? You still haven't qualified your cheat comments with a statement that you are only talking about GOTM. Why??

This is what I take issue with. My point is that in the pbem games I play, and in solo games it IS NOT A CHEAT. You keep stating it is a cheat, like that applies to ALL games of civ3. It dosen't, it applies to GOTM, please make that clear. It is like you are being deliberatly provactive for some reason? why??

 

[Dr Alimentado]

Bamspeedy, I'll be happy to take a look at it (it's gonna be tough though! that diamond is quite a small space to work in).

My time spent modding is directly related to whether my pbem opponents are online or not , so no promises on eta, but I'll give it top priority after pbem turns. If I can't get all the info into the diamond I'll have a think about what can most usefully be included at least.

And thanks (and thanks also to others here) for having an understanding of my position

 

[anarres]

Originally posted by cracker
We are working to implement a non-cheat version of the graphics as well as some detection systems. It just measn that there are one or two other priority things that we have to drop in order to deal with this exploit issue that could have been resolved here by attention to detail.

Until you can tell me you've found a way to show if someone has used other utilities when they play GOTM your comments make no sense.

Since there are utils to reveal maps and city info, and the infamous C3MT, how can you complain about GOTM players needing to be 'vetted' for having used graphics mods?? Your concern for this particular issue seems to be out of proportion to the effect it has on your life and the GOTM.

Where are the smiliar posts of yours in other graphics mods in this forum?

 

[cracker]

Originally posted by anarres
Until you can tell me you've found a way to show if someone has used other utilities when they play GOTM your comments make no sense.

We have found three ways to detect when someone has used the cheat mode graphics and will implement the 2nd and 3rd level protections effective with Gotm20-Spain.

The approved resource graphics will be available to all players in their game packs without further need for additional downloads.

 

[mrtn]

I have not downloaded this modpack (as I have a very modded game). I have also never played a GOTM. I probably never will. I do think that Dr Alimentado has done a good thing in posting this modpack, for those that like it. And I think that cracker should calm down a bit. It's one thing to say "Don't use this in my games." and it's another thing to say "If you use this you're a cheater." The first statement is IMO appropriate, the other is not. Just my 20 öre.

 

[zulu9812]

Actually, cracker is correct in one sense - if the resourese are viewable through the fog of war, then both they and the outlines should be dulled down.

 

[Dr Alimentado]

The resources aren't visible through the blackness but are visible at the very edge, in the same way a few pixels of ordinary wheat are visible in an un-modded game (but more so).

I am working on a GOTM compliant version that won't suffer from this.

 

[cracker]

I want to post this reference image here because it clearly shows why these added graphics end up being something that creates much more of a problem that past graphics mods.

This image was prepared by an experienced player DaveMcW and shows the range off the resources that would be covered by 95-97% fog opacity in the game. Around the solid fog there would still be a fringe of partially transparent area where added graphics features could be visible if the mod maker is not careful to properly position the content.

I made a resources.pcx overlay from the 3 darkest colors in FogOfWar.pcx. This provides a pretty accurate measurement of what is visible in the fog.

Here it is applied it to various resource mods.
Clockwise from top left: Firaxis's, Harlan's, Dr Alimentado's, SkankyBurns's

The upper left hand image is the way firaxis designed the game to be visible from under the fog. You have to keep these images in context that most of the strategic resources that would get the Shankyburns type visibility helpers would not be visible on the map in most cases until after the FOW had long sense been rolled back. Only the risk of exposure for the Horses and Iron was really present in prior graphics mods and even then the visibility was limited to one direction and would only result in a "cheat" or excess benefit in just a few limited cases.

This graphic mod pushed the Shankyburns visibility blips out towards the corners and virtually doubled the leaky exposure risk plus the extra shield/food/gold blips where added into the upper right corners resulting in an increase in the extra visibility risk by more than 300%.

The most negative impacts that come from these graphics mods that could be categorized as "cheats" or "exploits" are in the bonus food categories that occur down in the lower rows because in previous graphics mods these items had not been disrupted.

Adding the shields/food/gold production bonuses into the graphics also can have a sever negative impact on game play for the less expereinced players because they will tend to use these fixed graphics displays as a substiture for understanding the terrain status display that is built into the game plus they will not be able to relaible integrate these icons into the process of undertanding and planning for the actual results that will be obtained from the various terrain squares where the resources are located depeding on the government status plus the installed improvements and/or Golden Age or Mobilization status.

This is one of those things that may look like a good idea at first even if the images are altered to eliminate the game altering aspects, but in later assessments it will be just an increase in map clutter if the extrananeous bonus graphics are included.

Producing a GOTM compliant version of this mod will probably not fully address the bigger picture issues where we now have to do things to try and disable the ability to use graphics that take unfair advantage of the image content systems the way that this graphics mod accidentally ended up doing.

 

[Dr Alimentado]

I don't know why I bother (well I do, it's because I feel victimised and insulted) but...

I agree my mod gives extra info at the edge of the fog. I agree it is a 'cheat' if used in a GOTM. The mod was NOT made for the purpose of cheating, it was made to look good (which it does!)

I feel Cracker has over-reacted. There are various utilities available that allow players to hack the save game etc. Does this mod affect gameplay more than those? How about reloading a turn if you lose a battle? I think if you want to cheat there are some much more obvious and much more game damaging ways to do do. I just don't understand why this mod has attracted such wrath when there are other means to *really* subvert a game. But look, if you don't want the extra info this mod gives you, or as Cracker puts it "to cheat", don't use it.

Will it stop new players from playing the game well? I find that a hard argument to swallow, in fact I think it's a fairly lame complaint altogether, but make your own minds up people. If your a new player and you find the info you get from this mod confusing, don't use it.

Is this mod 'evil', or a 'very very bad' thing? IMHO no it isn't, but again, decide for yourselves. IMHO there are far worse ways of cheating than using a mod such as this. As long as my opponents agree I will continue to use this mod in pbem. I suggest civ3 players decide for themselves whether they wish to use this mod in their solo games, or with opponents agreement in their pbem games. but,

DO NOT USE THIS MOD IN A GOTM GAME!!!

Cracker, it's obvious you will never use this mod, that's fine. You think it's bad and wrong this mod was made, I cannot agree. Like I said, I think your over-reacting here. I also think your slightly puritanical about how the game should be played, again, that's your right. I choose to play it with nice graphics and (incidentally) slightly more info at the edge of the fog, that's my choice.
I also choose not to reload turns, load the other players turn in pbem, hack the savegame, take the first turn and run it hotseat to reveal the other players start, or any of the other obvious or not so obvious methods of cheating that would give you a much more decisive edge than seeing what is on the edge of the fog.

 

[ProPain]

Originally posted by Dr Alimentado

You know if you had left out the invective and said, "this looks great but would unfortunately be a cheat in GOTM - any chance of doing a GOTM version with less-revealing edges?" I would have been happy to do so.

I have to agree with dr. A here. I think that would have been a normal reaction acknowledging dr. A's intention to improve gameplay instead of insinuating he did this to provide a way to cheat.

I also read up on the discussion in the GOTM thread where dr. A went out of his way to provide a GOTM safe version of his mod. That clearly shows he had no malintent.

I can imagine dr. A feels insulted an apology would be in place imho.

PP

 

[Smirk]

Originally posted by cracker

Adding the shields/food/gold production bonuses into the graphics also can have a sever negative impact on game play for the less expereinced players because they will tend to use these fixed graphics displays as a substiture for understanding the terrain status display that is built into the game plus they will not be able to relaible integrate these icons into the process of undertanding and planning for the actual results that will be obtained from the various terrain squares where the resources are located depeding on the government status plus the installed improvements and/or Golden Age or Mobilization status.

Wow that is on *big* sentence! However, I disagree, the despot rules are the biggest difficulty to new players learning resources and their values and considering every game starts there and goes for many turns still there once you are able to get the full potential of a tile they have most likely been modified already. So backtracking to what they used to be becomes a reverse process which is usually more complex. This mod shows the base values and it should be trivial to anyone to see how that differs from what they currently see. Because what they see is what has modifed the base value, no hidden stuff.

Your statement about learning is in general counter-intuitive, people learn by seeing, doing and repetition. There is no logical way to arrive at what each resource gives so they must be memorized, and there is no better way to memorize than repetition. Seeing the base values many times through-out a game is an excellent and *subtle* form of repetition. I don't consider myself an inexperienced player but since I tried this mod out I have now firmly memorized all the different gold values that luxuries give, which up till then I haven't bothered to remember.



And if the above was just about How to Right Click on the Map, then I can only disagree because that is a very tedious chore. But by the same token I can only assume you also disagree with playing with Food and Shields displayed in the preferences? This shows the base tile values, which will be quite a bit different than what they may eventually be.

 

[chesspatzer]

Dr.A: Terrific mod!! I think it looks great and I plan to use it extensively. I never really paid attention that some of graphics were peaking out of the FOW. It never entered my thinking until it was pointed out. I guess it's kind like someone wearing a skirt! You know that there must be some kind of a view from the ground up, but unless you expend effort looking, it's not an issue.

Don't let the disgruntled folk get you down. There's about 99% of us are 'gruntled' and appreciate your effort.

 

[zulu9812]

I don't understand ppl's problem with Cracker's point. However much you may dislike the manner in which he posted, he is nonetheless correct. Why do you think he posted, unless he actually cared?

 

[Ribannah]

Better not try and answer that question.

It would be nice to have a graphics mod that helps people to more easily recognize the specials but won't show from under the fog.

Then they can be used without changing the game, and even in the GOTM without cheating.