Hinin's Tweaks for VP

[gwennog]

Remove the conqueror parts (too many problems with custom civs

Very interesting version of Rome but perhaps a problem? Custom civs that take into account that their UB could be captured by Rome will have to be modified in lua code to work with this mod, no ?

 

[Zarrk]

Hello, I think the conversion part from France UA is not working as intented because not every source is taken into account.

From my observations those are the one working:

• flat from Buildings, WorldWonders, Natural Wonders and National Wonders inclusing Guilds (by the way shouldn't the reformation Wonders be also be given and General points ?)
• bonus given to GW (Great Works) ex: the Salon passive effect
• Improvments

and the one ignored:

• base value of GW
• scaling per pop effect ex: the Arena or the Salon
• theming bonus, one more time the Salon with 2 GW of Art

I ran the tests with a 100% conversion rate for an easier analyse.

Question, is ultimatly presented as a float with two decimal is there any reason the conversion return a rounded down integer ?

Finally there is a missing closing ' in the china rework file which will break the new descriptions.

 

[Zarrk]

This one is a reflexion about the Sainte-Chapelle. I found the removal of generation at odd with the synergy with faith-bought building, the loss of a potential 6 per turn this early feels pretty big. The free prophet can be turned into a Holy Site but it generate only 4 and require a which are generally occupied to high-yield tiles or generating Great People.
This is secondary and probably personal but the Hagia Sophia is also unlocked at Theology and that also both a Great Prophet and a Wonder to boost your UA and a religious building, but this one is disputed and if I have a chance to snatch it I will try 100% of the time.

For a personal use I will remove the Prophet, restore the base generation, add 1 bonus to building bought with faith and maybe add an instant to insure fouding or a free building.

Great work, with this one, sorry if it looks i'm criticizing you, even if a Chapelle without generation feels weird to me, it still way more interesting than planning half the game where you are gonna place those Châteaux.

 

[Hinin]

and the one ignored:

• base value of GW
• scaling per pop effect ex: the Arena or the Salon
• theming bonus, one more time the Salon with 2 GW of Art

These are purely because of the way the Building_YieldFromYieldPercent function works. I cannot do more on my side unfortunately. I know the yields from Trade Routes aren't taken into account either (which was really bothersome for the Imazighen civ), and I was told it was intended.

Question, is ultimatly presented as a float with two decimal is there any reason the conversion return a rounded down integer ?

Once again, it's the Building_YieldFromYieldPercent that deals with that, and I have no control over how it works exactly. I suppose it functions like the "yield from pop" buildings : you need a certain threshold to be reached before a yield is converted (in this case, 5 tourism to gain 1 production).

Finally there is a missing closing ' in the china rework file which will break the new descriptions.

Thanks for pointing that out. There is also a problem with the Alpini 3d model right now that will be fixe in the next version.

The free prophet can be turned into a Holy Site but it generate only 4 and require a which are generally occupied to high-yield tiles or generating Great People.

You gain Culture and Tourism too, so to me that was balanced in some way. It is meant as a UNW that works even if you do not found, so faith as a yield is secondary to me here : you are incentivized to look for faith buildings (including from other religions), so you gain Faith quickly anyway.

Great work, with this one, sorry if it looks i'm criticizing you

Don't worry, this is constructive criticism, and I'm happy to hear this.

even if a Chapelle without generation feels weird to me

You gain a free Enhancement or Holy Site though, so in the end the religious role is clearly there.

Very interesting version of Rome but perhaps a problem? Custom civs that take into account that their UB could be captured by Rome will have to be modified in lua code to work with this mod, no ?

I've had no problem with custom civs while using this version of Rome as of now, simply because from what I can see the problem was coming from Rome capturing unique Buildings and not being able to access to their lua effects. Since now Rome doesn't capture any unique building, the problem doesn't present itself.

 

[Hinin]

by the way shouldn't the reformation Wonders be also be given and General points ?

Yes, that's true, it's just that I did this part manually instead of relying on an automated process or a sql function, so it's easier to make mistakes. It'll be fixed in the next version.

 

[SullySaltlicker]

Interesting change to make Rome's UA based on Historic Events. I like that, but not so much the Alpini. I understand wanting to expand Rome's kit beyond Classical Era, but the Alpini seems like it belongs to a completely different civ. It makes little to no sense historically.

Maybe make the Ballista a replacement for the Trebuchet, so that Rome gets a conquest tool right around when vassals become available?

 

[Hinin]

I like that, but not so much the Alpini. I understand wanting to expand Rome's kit beyond Classical Era, but the Alpini seems like it belongs to a completely different civ. It makes little to no sense historically.

The main idea was to give Rome a final push towards whatever victory you want that needs some military action in the endgame, and also create a link with modern Italy. The Alpini is especially interesting because it was present since the first decades of the new kingdom, but also served quite a lot during WW1 and the Fascist period (which presented itself as a new Roman empire in a very twisted and ultimately disappointing way).

The Ballista will be referenced in the next version through one of the promotions the Legio can get (giving it a bonus against ranged and fortified units), and Rome will also get a conquest bonus with the Campus Martius.

 

[gwennog]

I've had no problem with custom civs while using this version of Rome as of now, simply because from what I can see the problem was coming from Rome capturing unique Buildings and not being able to access to their lua effects. Since now Rome doesn't capture any unique building, the problem doesn't present itself.

Shame on me, indeed, even if the lua function is triggered, the building will not be found .

 

[SullySaltlicker]

The main idea was to give Rome a final push towards whatever victory you want that needs some military action in the endgame, and also create a link with modern Italy. The Alpini is especially interesting because it was present since the first decades of the new kingdom, but also served quite a lot during WW1 and the Fascist period (which presented itself as a new Roman empire in a very twisted and ultimately disappointing way).

Just did a bit of research - the Alpini were founded in 1872, which is a long way off from the western Roman empire that fell before 500 AD. It just feels too out of place to me, but maybe that’s just me. In the end it doesn’t matter much since you were cool enough to make the changes separate and removable.

As for a ‘final push’, Rome’s new UA should be snowballing well enough from GP historical events, giving you more production to build wonders, which can create a positive feedback loop into making more GPs or winning more wars. If you still need a late-game power surge, I would suggest adding some sort of boost relating to Golden Ages, but my initial ideas on that seem too similar to Persia.

Maybe make historical events from entering a new tech era also start a Golden Age? Or maybe go further and make each of the 4 types of historical events activate their own unique buffs? I imagine war victory events would start ramping up from mid-Classical Era onwards as Rome builds up its legions, while Great Person historical events would surge in the Industrial Era once you can buy them with faith, or even earlier if you go for Tradition or Artistry. “New era” events would be more consistent throughout the game, and wonder events would be unpredictable, but still probably more concentrated near the end if your production outpaces the rising costs of wonders. If you gave the right buffs to each of these events, you could replicate the feeling of that “final push” you’re looking for with just the UA.

EDIT: One example could be boosting faith output specifically from war victory events. This could be useful for snatching up your preferred enhancer/reformation beliefs, could synergize with certain beliefs (like zealotry), and it reflects how Rome was a polytheistic society and allowed subjects to practice their own religion even after conquering them.

 

[Rekk]

Just did a bit of research - the Alpini were founded in 1872, which is a long way off from the western Roman empire that fell before 500 AD. It just feels too out of place to me, but maybe that’s just me. In the end it doesn’t matter much since you were cool enough to make the changes separate and removable.

One of the goals of MUC is to spread the civilization out towards the present day if it still exists in some form. You can see that with the Arabian Hashemite Raider, Egyptian Mamluk, French SPAD, Greek Klepht, etc.

 

[SullySaltlicker]

One of the goals of MUC is to spread the civilization out towards the present day if it still exists in some form. You can see that with the Arabian Hashemite Raider, Egyptian Mamluk, French SPAD, Greek Klepht, etc.

Fair point. Maybe it’s because IRL Rome was so historically significant, I can’t help but mentally distinguish it from modern Italy, almost like the difference between, say, the Aztecs and present-day Mexico.

 

[SullySaltlicker]

Just an idea: give Rome a unique cavalry unit in the late medieval/early renaissance era as a reference to Charlemagne’s Carolingian army expanding the size of the Holy Roman Empire.

https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/news-wires-white-papers-and-books/carolingian-military-machine

It might not support Rome’s late game the way the Alpini does, but I figured the ideology-locked units are what most early-game powerhouses rely on in the late game, and besides that, this cavalry could potentially have unique promotions that carry over when upgrading to later units. Plus, it offers a smoother transition for your military’s backbone from the legion, to this unique cavalry unit, and then to whatever ideology unit Rome picks. With the Alpini, there’s sort of a mid-game gap where you can’t make any more legions, but you don’t have access to panzers or bombers.

 

[gwennog]

Hinin, I'm playing France Rework. Sainte-Chapelle doesn't have the description of the prerequisites for the Theming Bonus in Culture Overview.

 

[Hinin]

Hinin, I'm playing France Rework. Sainte-Chapelle doesn't have the description of the prerequisites for the Theming Bonus in Culture Overview.

View attachment 631411

Yes, it has been corrected in the next version (in addition to many small changes, and an Egypt rework).

 

[Hinin]

Just an idea: give Rome a unique cavalry unit in the late medieval/early renaissance era as a reference to Charlemagne’s Carolingian army expanding the size of the Holy Roman Empire.

https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/news-wires-white-papers-and-books/carolingian-military-machine

It might not support Rome’s late game the way the Alpini does, but I figured the ideology-locked units are what most early-game powerhouses rely on in the late game, and besides that, this cavalry could potentially have unique promotions that carry over when upgrading to later units. Plus, it offers a smoother transition for your military’s backbone from the legion, to this unique cavalry unit, and then to whatever ideology unit Rome picks. With the Alpini, there’s sort of a mid-game gap where you can’t make any more legions, but you don’t have access to panzers or bombers.

About your argument for late-game units compared to ideology units : basically, the idea is to not put unique units (especially land and air ones) during the Atomic and Information eras. Everything before is valid. In this particular case, the Alpini is a replacement for the Paratrooper, so just before the Atomic Era unit that is the Special Force.

As for the idea of a Carolingian or SERG unit, I do think having a Medieval Era unique unit wouldn't be good : it would water down the core element that is the Roman super power spike in the Classical Era by extending it one hand, and would concentrate too much on the "successor states" of the Roman empire (something the Byzantine empire already does) instead of the geographical area (which is something I tend to prefer). Plus, the Medieval era is already full enough of unique components.

Thanks for the idea though. Brainstorming is always interesting.

 

[SullySaltlicker]

View attachment 631440

Interesting to see antiquity sites from the start. But aren't some of these sites generated secretly as the game progresses, then revealed later on? For example I've noticed that some antiquity sites spawn on the same tiles where barbarian camps were that I cleared in the early game, and that the artifact descriptions refer to the battles my units fought to take those camps.

 

[Rekk]

Interesting to see antiquity sites from the start. But aren't some of these sites generated secretly as the game progresses, then revealed later on? For example I've noticed that some antiquity sites spawn on the same tiles where barbarian camps were that I cleared in the early game, and that the artifact descriptions refer to the battles my units fought to take those camps.

Yes, normally, when someone discovers Archaeology, the game generates antiquity sites at sites of previous Ancient Ruins, Barbarian Camps, tiles where combat took place, and razed Cities.

In cases where there aren't enough of these plots to fill out the required number of antiquity sites, it chooses completely randomly between tiles without resources.

 

[SullySaltlicker]

Yes, normally, when someone discovers Archaeology, the game generates antiquity sites at sites of previous Ancient Ruins, Barbarian Camps, tiles where combat took place, and razed Cities.

In cases where there aren't enough of these plots to fill out the required number of antiquity sites, it chooses completely randomly between tiles without resources.

Would having one player as Egypt force all these antiquity sites to spawn on non-resource tiles for all players? Seems like that would fill the required number of sites on the first turn.

Also, just to be clear, Egypt can see antiquity sites, but has to wait until Archaeology to use them like everyone else, right?

 

[Rekk]

Would having one player as Egypt force all these antiquity sites to spawn on non-resource tiles for all players? Seems like that would fill the required number of sites on the first turn.

Also, just to be clear, Egypt can see antiquity sites, but has to wait until Archaeology to use them like everyone else, right?

Yes, all antiquity sites are spawned immediately, and no more will be created during the game. Egypt will be the only one who can see them, and will be able to dig them out of the ground with the Vizier.

 

[psparky]

The idea of fixing antiquity sites at the start of the game will make an existing problem much worse, namely that GPTI or even cities could be planted on these tiles. Currently, those tiles are excluded when the sites are fixed, and most of those are in place by this time. Nonetheless, I do see GPTI planted on sites by civs that haven't discovered Archaeology yet - indeed I have recently done so myself