History questions not worth their own thread V

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If you'd find yourself capable of expanding on that cryptic comment, I'm sure we'd all be grateful. I make no pretence of being a classicist, I won't be offended. ;)
Mmm. Neither do I.

Given the problems of saying much of anything about the history of Britain in the first part of the fifth century, I don't think it's possible to make generalizations about "Briton" vs. "Roman" and their relative popularity as identities at the time. Patrick was part of the aristocracy by birth, which among the Roman Empire was always very culturally unified, but he came of age at a time when the Empire's cultural cachet was rapidly attenuating in Britain (due to that whole Constantinus "III" thing), and he was kidnapped to Ireland in his teens anyway. He was an important regional member of the Church, which was extremely closely tied into Roman identity.

We certainly can't say anything about the long-term genealogy of his family - whether they had descended from people who had lived on the island since before the Romans came, were later immigrants, some combination of the two, or whatever. And it's dubious that that would have mattered to anybody anyway, especially after the third and fourth centuries. Provincial aristocratic identity was not seen as particularly distinct from the aristocratic identity of those who still lived at least part of their year in Rome itself, except for aesthetic/literary purposes or by the odd semi-xenophobic clarissimus who never left the Palatine Hill. Rome itself did not matter all that much; the Emperors themselves kept their courts on the frontier, and most everybody else had to follow along.

All we know about Patrick's family is that his father's name was Calpornius and grandfather's was Potitus, and that both of those men were employed by the Church, just as he was. In all probability, at least some of Patrick's extended family had moved to Britain during the Empire, and potentially some had lived there since before it.
 
Now, see, wasn't that painless? You need to be less pessimistic sometimes, remember that not everybody on the WH forum is a Domen so thoroughly convinced of their own wisdom that they'd argue Napoleon was a Spanish giant if they found themselves in that corner! ;)
 
Lying or malicious is at least as popular as stupid, going back this idea's origin in the French Revolution.

All true Italians know in their hearts what is good for Italy, and Mussolini is a true Italian. So if you disagree with him, one of you is not really being patriotic.

As an American citizen, reading that conversation, and then reading this, gave me goosebumps in a very not fun way.
 
Lying or malicious is at least as popular as stupid, going back this idea's origin in the French Revolution.

I noticed that according to Anglophone people all of evilness originates from the French Revolution.

Sigh. Continental Europeans have somehow different opinion about the French Revolution...
 
I noticed that according to Anglophone people all of evilness originates from the French Revolution.

Sigh. Continental Europeans have somehow different opinion about the French Revolution...
You also seem to have different views on Fascism, so you're in kind of a lurch when you accuse me of saying the French Revolution is the source of "evil."
 
I noticed that according to Anglophone people all of evilness originates from the French Revolution.

Sigh. Continental Europeans have somehow different opinion about the French Revolution...
I'm sure your opinion has nothing whatsoever to do with Napoleon having a Polish mistress and child and his brief re-constitution of a quasi-independent "Polish" state as a means of threatening Prussia and Austria. Nothing at all.
 
I'm sure your opinion has nothing whatsoever to do with Napoleon having a Polish mistress and child and his brief re-constitution of a quasi-independent "Polish" state as a means of threatening Prussia and Austria. Nothing at all.

I was writing about the French Revolution, you respond about Napoleon... Apples and Oranges... :rolleyes:

However - you are right. Check my previous posts about Napoleon to see my opinion about him:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/search.php?searchid=2197044

For example here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12221549&highlight=Napoleon#post12221549

You also seem to have different views on Fascism,

Fascism is a word which is nowadays abused to describe a whole variety of distinct views & ideologies, which have nothing to do with original Fascism.

For example a Polish feminist Kazimiera Szczuka said "Do not badmouth my father, you Fascist muzzle" to a right-wing journalist.

The new Pope - Francesco - is also "a Fascist prick", according to another Polish feminist, Ewa Wójciak.

So basically when you oppose Euthanasia or some other things glorified by leftists, you are "Fascist" nowadays.

As to what I ever wrote about Fascism - once again, you should use the Search Tool, rather than insinuating things:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/search.php?searchid=2197046
 
I noticed that according to Anglophone people all of evilness originates from the French Revolution.

Sigh. Continental Europeans have somehow different opinion about the French Revolution...
The origins of Fascism go back to the revolution. The origins of Communism go back to the French Revolution. The origins of social democracy go back to the French Revolution. The origins of liberal nationalism go back to the French Revolution. The French Revolution is kind of a big deal, in short, and pointing that out isn't indicative of some uniquely Anglophonic pathology.
 
The origins of Fascism go back to the revolution. The origins of Communism go back to the French Revolution. The origins of social democracy go back to the French Revolution. The origins of liberal nationalism go back to the French Revolution. The French Revolution is kind of a big deal, in short, and pointing that out isn't indicative of some uniquely Anglophonic pathology.
I don't think it's particularly controversial to say that a lot of those things are only tenuously connected with the Revolution. Fascist ideology didn't develop into something coherent until long after the Revolution; same with communism. Liberal nationalism existed before the Revolution in many places and really took off in others after the Revolution, not due to it. I don't know as much about the history of social democracy, but even that wasn't really a Thing until several decades later, too.

I mean, of course the Revolution of 1789 was "kind of a big deal", but that doesn't mean it was totally and epochally responsible for the entirety of modern Western political thought. :p

With that said, though, yes, it is quite common among Anglophone scholars to suggest that there were positive and negative aspects to the French Revolution in both short and long term. I'm actually kind of surprised Domen has a positive view of it, since it was a significant part of the reason behind the destruction of Poland, which one would normally assume that he would consider a Bad Thing, but.
 
Mmm. Neither do I.

Given the problems of saying much of anything about the history of Britain in the first part of the fifth century, I don't think it's possible to make generalizations about "Briton" vs. "Roman" and their relative popularity as identities at the time. Patrick was part of the aristocracy by birth, which among the Roman Empire was always very culturally unified, but he came of age at a time when the Empire's cultural cachet was rapidly attenuating in Britain (due to that whole Constantinus "III" thing), and he was kidnapped to Ireland in his teens anyway. He was an important regional member of the Church, which was extremely closely tied into Roman identity.

We certainly can't say anything about the long-term genealogy of his family - whether they had descended from people who had lived on the island since before the Romans came, were later immigrants, some combination of the two, or whatever. And it's dubious that that would have mattered to anybody anyway, especially after the third and fourth centuries. Provincial aristocratic identity was not seen as particularly distinct from the aristocratic identity of those who still lived at least part of their year in Rome itself, except for aesthetic/literary purposes or by the odd semi-xenophobic clarissimus who never left the Palatine Hill. Rome itself did not matter all that much; the Emperors themselves kept their courts on the frontier, and most everybody else had to follow along.

All we know about Patrick's family is that his father's name was Calpornius and grandfather's was Potitus, and that both of those men were employed by the Church, just as he was. In all probability, at least some of Patrick's extended family had moved to Britain during the Empire, and potentially some had lived there since before it.

If I read you correctly, it seems you're saying that Roman vs. British isn't a meaningful distinction for us when referring to that time period (due to issues of proof among other things). Is that correct or would you also say that, for people living at the time, it wasn't really possible to identify Roman heritage vs. local heritage (or that no one cared to try)?
 
I don't think it's particularly controversial to say that a lot of those things are only tenuously connected with the Revolution. Fascist ideology didn't develop into something coherent until long after the Revolution; same with communism. Liberal nationalism existed before the Revolution in many places and really took off in others after the Revolution, not due to it. I don't know as much about the history of social democracy, but even that wasn't really a Thing until several decades later, too.

I mean, of course the Revolution of 1789 was "kind of a big deal", but that doesn't mean it was totally and epochally responsible for the entirety of modern Western political thought. :p
Hence "origins of [blahblahism]" and not simply "[blahblahism]". That's not to say that their origins lie absolutely and exclusively in the French Revolution, and I probably should have phrased that better, but you get my point, that there's very little in the way of modern political thought that does not pay some significant reference to 1789-99. Even if the French Revolution wasn't quite the epoch-defining occurrance that its often made out to be, a lot of people living at the time and in the following century really did believe that it was, for better or worse, and philosophised accordingly.


(Fair point on liberal nationalism, mind. What I mean there is specifically liberal nationalism in its modern, popular form, but I should have made that clearer.)

With that said, though, yes, it is quite common among Anglophone scholars to suggest that there were positive and negative aspects to the French Revolution in both short and long term.
Come to think of it, haven't a lotof the scholars who affect the greatest distate for the Revolution been French? It was François Furet, after all, who explicitly identified the Revolution as the source of modern "totalitarianism", and the grandmother of both Hitler and Stalin - as close to an unironic description as "the source of all evil" as you're likely to get.
 
If I read you correctly, it seems you're saying that Roman vs. British isn't a meaningful distinction for us when referring to that time period (due to issues of proof among other things).

Pretty much this. We really don't have much coming out of the British Isles after Constantine III. The next substantial sources we have are Bede and some off-hand mentions from Gregory the Great and Brunhild.

Also it isn't really a meaningful indication because until Bede comes a lot we don't have much in the way of people making that distinction themselves.
 
I don't think it's particularly controversial to say that a lot of those things are only tenuously connected with the Revolution. Fascist ideology didn't develop into something coherent until long after the Revolution; same with communism. Liberal nationalism existed before the Revolution in many places and really took off in others after the Revolution, not due to it. I don't know as much about the history of social democracy, but even that wasn't really a Thing until several decades later, too.
Well I didn't say Fascism jumped fully formed out of the French Revolution.

I said the tying of Rousseau's general will to a nationalist ideal dates to the French Revolution.
 
How was the French Revolution a significant part of the reason behind the destruction of Poland? Explain please.
Austria's involvement in the mounting French crisis from 1791 onward prevented Leopold II from being able to make good on his policy of keeping Poland intact. Maintaining armies of observation on the French frontier meant that Austria could not spare armed forces to back up her policy vis-a-vis the Second Partition. Then, of course, Leopold died and Franz II (and Cobenzl, etc.) threw that all out the window by jumping into the partition feet-first (Austria's "share" supposedly to come from France). Utter lunacy. Kaunitz, who by this point ended up being Leopold's standard-bearer after he was kicked out of office, recognized that Austria's inability to back up its policy on Poland initially, during the actual war with the Targowica "confederates" and Russia, meant that it could be safely ignored afterwards.

There were other reasons, too, of course. Yekaterina seems to have genuinely believed that the constitutional movement was part and parcel of a massive revolutionary conspiracy directed from Paris and that her invasion was her 'contribution' to European security and stability. Both Polish and French revolutions fed off of each other ideologically, to an extent. Prussian diplomats used the ideological aspect of the French war - arguing that they could not sustain their own "contributions" against France unless Poland were extirpated - to egg Russia on. And so on, and so forth.

But the fundamental point is this: Austria under Leopold and Kaunitz wanted to keep Poland alive, less for its own sake than as a valuable intermediary body in eastern Europe, but still alive. And the French Revolution meant that they could not back up this policy with anything meaningful, leaving the door open for the Russians to win a few closer-than-they-otherwise-seemed victories and extinguish Polish independence for good.
 
But had the French Revolution not occurred, or not distracted them so, wouldn't Partitioning just resume once Franz II took the reins (pun sort of intended)? That's all just based on what you just wrote, I know next to nothing about the Partitions.
 
But had the French Revolution not occurred, or not distracted them so, wouldn't Partitioning just resume once Franz II took the reins (pun sort of intended)? That's all just based on what you just wrote, I know next to nothing about the Partitions.
He was not actively abetting the Partitions himself until they had become a virtual certainty. Assuming, of course, that Leopold were to die at the same time less the Revolution.
 
You are right in saying that the French Revolution was the cause of events (shuffling of military and diplomatic strategy of Austria and Prussia, and the constitution in Poland) that led to the absolute end of the Kingdom of Poland.

However, Poland at that point already lost most of it's territory and independence, and was hampered severely by anarchic policies such as Liberum Veto and the Golden Liberties anyway. The French and subsequent Polish revolutions were the fuel for one final push for a revitalized, independent and reformed Polish state. That's why Potocki and Kollataj referred to the constitution as "the last will and testament of the expiring Country."

This is much like saying Kosciuszko's uprising was a major and arguably a direct reason for the 3rd partition, which it undoubtedly was, but it was also a final push for an independent and reformed Poland. That's also why Kosciuszko is renowned as a Polish hero while Jan Suchorzewski (staunchly opposed to the constitution, later important member of the Targowica Conference) is most definitely not, despite both having believed their actions were in the best interests of the Polish nation at the time.
 
You are right in saying that the French Revolution was the cause of events (shuffling of military and diplomatic strategy of Austria and Prussia, and the constitution in Poland) that led to the absolute end of the Kingdom of Poland.

However, Poland at that point already lost most of it's territory and independence, and was hampered severely by anarchic policies such as Liberum Veto and the Golden Liberties anyway. The French and subsequent Polish revolutions were the fuel for one final push for a revitalized, independent and reformed Polish state. That's why Potocki and Kollataj referred to the constitution as "the last will and testament of the expiring Country."

This is much like saying Kosciuszko's uprising was a major and arguably a direct reason for the 3rd partition, which it undoubtedly was, but it was also a final push for an independent and reformed Poland. That's also why Kosciuszko is renowned as a Polish hero while Jan Suchorzewski (staunchly opposed to the constitution, later important member of the Targowica Conference) is most definitely not, despite both having believed their actions were in the best interests of the Polish nation at the time.
Eh, not so much.

Poland did lose an awful lot of territory in the First Partition, but "most" is very far off the mark and general historical consensus is that the First Partition did not mean that Poland was in its death throes. And it certainly did not mean that Poland was going to be extinguished as an independent state. Poland was weak, yes, in significant part due to the idiotic political system and the extremely wide rights that the aristocracy enjoyed; that's not controversial. Poland was not as big as it had used to be; that's hard to dispute. Poland was a pawn of neighboring Great Powers; again, not controversial. But none of these things meant that Poland was absolutely going to get smaller or cease to exist altogether. Weak countries that have lost their former glory have been (and are) bandied about by Great Powers all the time and not lost their independence.

Of course Polish reformers would refer to their country as being in its death throes, or facing certain doom. That was their whole impetus to reform: they thought that not allowing reform would mean death, and they wanted to convince other people of the same thing. That does not make it true. The simple fact is that Poland would not be destroyed without the concerted action of the three (well, two and a half) Eastern Great Powers. Otherwise, who else would be destroying it? Austria, especially under Leopold, opposed the Partitions. Russia under Yekaterina thought they were a suboptimal solution for the problem of making Poland strategically irrelevant and for preventing the spread of revolution. Prussia under Friedrich Wilhelm II wanted them to happen but only if they could be done easily and without major opposition. Those three positions together are a recipe for inaction, not action.
 
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