History questions not worth their own thread V

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I'm not sure how Chinggis Khan would have reduced global temperatures in that odd theory you mentioned earlier. The only clear and widely accepted historical case of pre-industrial man having a major effect on climate is the cooling effect pirates had.

Basically the argument was based on something about Genghis Khan killing so many people that forests regrew where before they were being reduced in size due to human activity. Something like that, I'm probably not explaining it well.
 
You could probably try to look at solar minima cycles but I think it's impossible to really prove any absolute cause-effects, of the "X barbarians would never have taken over the world if it wasn't for 200 years of cooling temperatures due to sunspot activity and a decline in solar output".

Some of the evidence is by rigorous observations of credible natural scientists in antiquity, which are pretty hard to find.
I wonder how credible correlations between polar ice cores and ancient history are?


That's an interesting paradox too that the local climate (I think that's what Dachs is saying) evidence suggests poor harvests, but the overall political and agricultural health of a large empire might still be excellent).
 
I'm not sure how Chinggis Khan would have reduced global temperatures in that odd theory you mentioned earlier. The only clear and widely accepted historical case of pre-industrial man having a major effect on climate is the cooling effect pirates had.

This I need to hear.
 
What arguments are you referring to? The one where Genghis Khan supposedly caused a little global cooling or something?

It's the notion that the Medieval Warm Period from 900-1250AD allowed more favorable harvests/herding in the steppes resulting in a population boom that would eventually fuel the Mongol Hordes expansion across Eurasia. I believe it was discussed in this very thread earlier, but see Lord Baal's posts on this page. :)

This I need to hear.
And This!
 
This I need to hear.

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Number of pirates goes down, temperature goes up. You can't explain that.

Pirates are also proven to have a weakening effect on tropical cyclones by increasing cold-water upwelling.
 
I think the same goes with Christian, as for Abrahamic religion, to worship the other beside God himself is a grave sin, and making idolatry like the pagan, and kneeling and praying to something that we made by our own hand it itself idolatry. We call this process of religious contamination in Islam as bid'ah or religious innovation, which is new element that outside from the doctrine of religion and contradict with it very basic doctrine been adopt and made as part of religion and became a paradox. As Christianity not clean from this bid'ah so do we muslim and the jew (Judaism) also in the same position, this is the main reason of religious splitting and sect which we called in Islam as fitnah, or separation, division. It is between the origin or orthodox with its variation.

On the question of venerating icons etc., those who defend such practices would of course say that they're not worshipping them, they are worshipping God through them. So it's not idolatry, because only God is being worshipped. Of course you might not accept such a distinction.

On the question of the development of doctrine or practice, that's rather more interesting, I think. It's arguable to what extent there has been such development in Christianity. The seventeenth-century Catholic theologian Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet agreed with your criterion that all such innovation would indeed be "contamination" and wrong. But he thought that it had never happened in Catholicism, and that Catholics had always believed and done exactly the same things; and the only innovators were heretics (e.g. Protestants). That's not a very plausible view today. The Catholic Church developed instead a theory distinguishing between legitimate development and illegitimate development; the key figure in this was the nineteenth-century theologian John Henry Newman. Newman thought that development is OK provided it's true to the roots - so, for example, the first Christians didn't venerate Mary and later Christians did, but this is OK because the reasons for venerating Mary can be found in the earliest Christians. It wasn't an innovation, simply a logical working-out of what Christians had always believed. At least, so the theory goes.

Pangur Bán;12869286 said:
http://www.hs.ias.edu/files/Crone_A...deo-Christianity_and_Byzantine_Iconoclasm.pdf
Though it's partially the other way about, surely? Islam incorporated and allied itself to the widespread criticism of such representation, and Islam in turn increased the power of the idea that those guys were right to criticize such images.

It may be. That's a good link to the paper and it makes some interesting points, although I still feel that it's somewhat speculative.

Some of the bits about early Christianity are not totally bonkers. The rest is guff or just unverifiable for reasons of malice. At least paper comics can be used creatively.

No, believe me, everything it says about early Christianity is totally bonkers as well.
 
On the question of venerating icons etc., those who defend such practices would of course say that they're not worshipping them, they are worshipping God through them. So it's not idolatry, because only God is being worshipped. Of course you might not accept such a distinction.

On the question of the development of doctrine or practice, that's rather more interesting, I think. It's arguable to what extent there has been such development in Christianity. The seventeenth-century Catholic theologian Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet agreed with your criterion that all such innovation would indeed be "contamination" and wrong. But he thought that it had never happened in Catholicism, and that Catholics had always believed and done exactly the same things; and the only innovators were heretics (e.g. Protestants). That's not a very plausible view today. The Catholic Church developed instead a theory distinguishing between legitimate development and illegitimate development; the key figure in this was the nineteenth-century theologian John Henry Newman. Newman thought that development is OK provided it's true to the roots - so, for example, the first Christians didn't venerate Mary and later Christians did, but this is OK because the reasons for venerating Mary can be found in the earliest Christians. It wasn't an innovation, simply a logical working-out of what Christians had always believed. At least, so the theory goes.

Thank you for your respond and I will check the peoples that you quote.

Yes you are right I don't agree with that notion of yours as you easily guess, the priesthood system in early Islam is not absolute let alone act as mediation toward man to God, as God more nearer to us than our jugular vein and on every direction we face that is the face of God, when there is no distant there no need of satellite, mediation, to be able to reach God. Even if priest cannot act that way, let alone an object.

"When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way. (The Noble Quran, 2:186)"

And according to hadith, the Children of Adam fall into worship of idol, their first step is making a statue for their pious peoples to remember God (which it seem something positive), after generation they pray infront of that statue to ask by the mediation of the death pious peoples by the mediation of the statue to speak to God on behalf of them (intercession). After generation they make this pious peoples as minor God beside the major God, and later this peoples make this pious peoples as God partner that equal, as it appear also in generation of Noah they worship the pious among their peoples.

Priest or ulama in early muslim just function as a scholar, that can be negate by both public or other scholar if their view are contradict with Quran and Sunnah, knowing this you can understand we don't have religious institution in Islam (like catholic or orthodox) and the scholar became a scholar when the public and other scholar acknowledge his knowledge in religion but we have school tradition.

While to understand the life of the peoples after the Prophet we easily go to the shirah read how the companion and early muslim generation live after the prophet pass away at 632 so we can always cross check their claim.
 
It may be. That's a good link to the paper and it makes some interesting points, although I still feel that it's somewhat speculative.

the author seem dubious to me, I thought she also speculate that Muhammad was live and active in Mediterranean not in Hejaz. While she know poorly about Islamic history, cannot read or speak arabic. Even one of my professor is from US and make a class talking about Islamic civilization he at least can read arabic even write arabic.

This is a problem of orientalism, as Edward Said state Orientalism was political intellectualism bent on self-affirmation rather than objective study, a form of racism, and a tool of imperialist domination (as historically it originally form for this purpose).

I start to read Hodgson beside keep reading and searching classical history from classical historian (Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Hisham) my professor said Hogdson is somewhat more objective than general tendentious and hostile Orientalist.
 
It may be. That's a good link to the paper and it makes some interesting points, although I still feel that it's somewhat speculative.

For sure, but at the end of the day a hostility to image worship is a pretty arbitrary and improbable historical phenomenon if divorced from any context. Roman and Islamic iconoclasm have the same origin one way or another, and the Jewish and Roman traditions are so mixed up by this point of late antiquity that ascribing the origins of Islamic iconoclasm to one or the other would almost be a meaningless act.
 
So how did the Italian peninsula shift from the Roman slavery-based economy to serfdom in the middle ages? Was this change drastic? Or was it a gradual result of changing political/social environment?

Was working today and realized I have no idea what happened to slavery after the Western Roman Empire. (Or if this change took place during the Empire?)
 
So how did the Italian peninsula shift from the Roman slavery-based economy to serfdom in the middle ages? Was this change drastic? Or was it a gradual result of changing political/social environment?

Was working today and realized I have no idea what happened to slavery after the Western Roman Empire. (Or if this change took place during the Empire?)

Couple points:

Probably not a good idea to generalize about the entire Italian peninsula - the North was very very very different from the South and the Urban centers were very very different from the Rural.

You should be more specific about what you mean by "middle ages", which could represent any year between 600ish and 1500ish.

Describing the Italian Peninsula as shifting to serfdom is probably not a very correct characterization of the labor realities of the region.
 
The question was directed towards the end of slavery in the peninsula, whatever time that may be (I don't know), which I assume must have took place after the fall of the Western Roman Empire but before 1000ad?

As for your other points, I'm afraid due to my ignorance they have flown right over my head, hence why I am asking this question. :p

The north was different from the south how? I'm aware of its significantly different political history, but I'm not sure about the social or economic implications and specifically the labor trends behind it.

I also apologize for my use of serfdom, I'm aware that the serfdom-vassalage relationship as popularized didn't really exist. I've read through several rants from Dachs and others on here on the topic and my use of serfdom is only as a placeholder for lack of a better word.
 
I need to recheck the chapter in Guy Halsall's book, but the villa system declined with the fall of the Roman Empire in the west, so slavery would have correspondingly declined. However, I think it would have lasted a bit longer in Italy (and they had an easier time getting non-Christian slaves), so it would have lasted longer. I know Venice was involved in the Slavic slave trade, but I don't know the details about whether there were many slaves in Italy itself.
 
Does anybody know whose "impure blood" is the impure blood from La Marseillaise? The royalists? The noblemen? Normal peasants? Sans-culottes?
 
was watching a documentary a few nights back and while discussing Çatalhöyük the show said the site doesn't make great sense today , but some 9000 years back it was possibly by a river and the whole terrain level was some 6 meters lower . My question is : Is that 6 meters of dirt due to the effects of the now-dried up river or can ı derive a rule of thumb that if you don't clean the dust regularly you get a meter of soil over you every 1500 years ?
 
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