History questions not worth their own thread V

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In an article titled "Jew and Polish patriot says sorry for Communist security service" Doctor Ryszard Praszkier writes:

"I would like to ask for forgiveness in the name of Polish Jews, who together with other Poles contributed to strengthening of Soviet occupation in Poland. I share nothing in common with them, apart from my ethnic roots, but finally someone has to ask for forgiveness!"

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/poland/TGAE0C756LQ6ARGEE

Polish-Jewish scientist says sorry for Jewish faults against other Poles

The Polish Rzeczpospolita daily just published a rather unexpected and very remarkable text by an extraordinary person - Ryszard Praszkier PhD, a Polish Jew (or Jewish Pole) and an ex-Solidarity activist in the eighties, and today a social worker and civic activist, in his text entitled ‘Jew – Polish Patriot’ writes:

‘I would like to ask for forgiveness in the name of the Jews who with other Poles were supporting the Soviet occupation in Poland. Despite the same ethnic roots, I have nothing in common with them, but finally someone must ask for forgiveness!’ After such a strong statement, Praszker writes about his Polish patriotism, fascination with Polish culture, literature and history, passed to him by his parents.

Then he gives the examples of Jewish misunderstandings or evil attitude towards Poland – he writes that when in 1968, when Polish Communist Party offered to Polish Jews an opportunity to leave Poland, for him it was not the ‘act of Polish anti-Semitism’, as it has been presented in many countries, but a way of fight between and within Polish communist secret police for power in the well-known Stalinist style, an another attempt of make Poland look more and more Russian way, with Russian-style ‘pogrom’ (mass extermination) and anti-Jewish public actions. That’s why Praszker didn’t leave Poland: ‘Why should I leave? It is them (communists), who should be thrown out!’

Later on Mr. Praszker gives a short lesson on Polish-Jewish common history, 800 hundred years of living in one country - Poland, and the drama of the Second World War, when sometimes some Poles and some Jews were selling and betraying each other to Germans, but most of the time were helping and supporting each other in that time of bloody and deadly terror. Mr. Praszker gives examples of Poles saving Jews and Jews saving Poles, and then he comes to the Polish - Jewish cooperation with the communist, Soviet regime, which in some part was also built in Poland after the Second World War also by hands of – again, some – Polish Jews, who supported and joined the communists, including the murderous communist secret police.

Then he comes to the issue of today’s ‘Polish anti-Semitism’: ‘It looks, that anti-Semitism acts happen much more often in other European countries than in Poland: a few years ago I read a big commercial published by Jewish organizations in „International Herald Tribune" comprising the statistics: how many synagogues were burned, graves destroyed, violent attacks, etc. The biggest number – to my surprise – was in Great Britain, and the smallest, namely zero, in Poland.' Actually, not so long time ago I also several times wrote about the World Anti-Semitism Report made by the Tel Aviv University, and the same information, which showed the absurd of the ‘typical Polish anti-Semitism’ stupid and untrue stereotype.

So, what is Mr. Praszker’s suggestion for action to counter those offensive and untrue anti-Polish opinions? ‘In my opinion especially people with the Jewish ethnic roots should actively give arguments against anti-Polonism, as well as Poles with no Jewish roots should protest against the anti-Semitism.’Because a few lines before Mr. Praszker writes about the Polish Catholic Church declaration ‘We do forgive and we do ask for forgiveness’ from 1966 - which was a gesture made by Polish Catholic Church towards German Church, and to the Germans as a nation - as a great inspiration to him, I think that similar declaration should be done for the relations between Poles and Jews, Poland and Israel. For the good of both, and for the respect for our common, long history.
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Also Forum Żydów Polskich (Forum of Polish Jews) mentions this apology:

http://fzp.net.pl/opinie/ryszard-praszkier-prosi-o-przebaczenie-w-czym-problem

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Ryszard Praszkier is actually not the first Polish Jew who is ashamed of collaboration of some Jews with Communists.

Such opinions about Jews who were Communists could be found already among Polish Jews who lived in late 19th and early 20th centuries.

Below some examples from a forum thread about Polish-Jewish patriots (link below):

http://www.4lomza.pl/forum/read.php?f=1&i=41790&t=41790

Kazimierz Sterling (1875 - 1933), a Polish-Jewish lawyer who criticized Jewish separatism, wrote before WW1:

"(...) Jewish separatism in Poland - I will not stop repeating this - is ignorance and result of ghettos. Jewish nationalism - it is unawarness of Polish culture, history, tradition, it is lack of recognitionn of beauty of Polish life, it is the result of deliberate horrific policy conducted by the Russian government. (...)"

Julian Unszlicht (1879 - 1938) was a Polish Jew who underwent transformation from member of anti-Polish Communist organization to a patriot:

He wrote for example:

"(...) Myself being a Pole of Semitic descent, thoroughly knowing the petit bourgeois Jewish intelligentsia and various ideas bothering them, for many years I was member of the main organization of anti-Polish Jewish nationalism, SDKPiL (»Social Democracy of the Kingdom of Poland and Lithuania«). For a long time I could not understand, what was the origin of ferocious anti-Polish impetus, why my organization was spreading such hellish hatred towards the most persecuted nation in the world and why it was poisoning spirits of Polish people, fighting against normal feelings of love and dedication to their own enslaved homeland. (...)"

Julian Unszlicht calls ideology of his former organization (SDKPiL) "socjal-litwactwo" ("social-litvanism"):

"(...) How huge was impudence of social-litvanism is proven by the following fact: at the beginning of 1905 in the moment of the greatest revolutionary outbreak in Poland social-litvanian Sanhedrin (that is the Main Board of Directors) published in anniversary of »Proletariat« a manifesto, in which it solemnly proclaimed, that: »Poland, is a corpse, which must be thrown away into the rubbish«, and this idea, spread over entire manifesto, was published in an enormous circulation into masses of Polish workers - under the pretext, that it was ideology of »Proletariat« (...)"

Some Western authors even blame Julian Unszlicht - himself a Jew - for creating the myth of "Judeo-Communism":

http://books.google.pl/books?id=HeU...an Unszlicht about Jewish nationalism&f=false

Unszlicht.jpg


The excerpt above is mistaken in this part: "internationalism of SDKPiL was a cover for Jewish nationalism". Julian Unszlicht never claimed that it was a cover for "Jewish nationalism" - he claimed that it was a cover for anti-Polonism (indeed, SDKPiL opposed attempts of Poland to regain independence).

Brother of Julian Unszlicht was Józef Unszlicht:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Józef_Unszlicht

Józef Unszlicht or Iosif Unshlikht (Russian: Ио́сиф Станисла́вович У́ншлихт; nicknames "Jurowski", "Leon") (December 31 [O.S. 19 December] 1879 in Mława, Płock Governorate - July 28, 1938 on a shooting range in Moscow Oblast), a Bolshevik revolutionary activist, one of the founders of the Cheka, and Soviet government official of Polish-Jewish extraction from the Masovian region. Unschlicht participated to and in fact initiated some of the worst excesses of the Bolshevik revolution including mass murders of political opponents. In 1924, he was replaced by Genrikh Yagoda who continued and amplified Unschlicht's previous policies.

A member of Social Democracy of the Kingdom of Poland and Lithuania from 1900 and the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party from 1906 (following their merger), Unszlicht took part in Vladimir Lenin's October Revolution and in 1918 joined the Red Army.
Biography

In 1919 Unszlicht served briefly as an authority in Lithuania and Belarus, and in 1920 joined the Politburo of the Communist Party. During the Polish-Soviet War in August 1920 he became a member of Provisional Polish Revolutionary Committee, the Bolshevist puppet government of Poland in Białystok.

His brother, Julian, was a journalist who "fought against the socialist movement in general and especially against Jewish involvement in it."[1] In later years, Julian converted to Catholicism and joined the priesthood.[1]

Józef Unszlicht was arrested in 1937, during the Great Purge, and executed in 1938.
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There must have been a ferocious conflict between the two brothers - Julian & Józef - considering that they both started as Communists, but in the end one became a dedicated enemy of Communism, while the other one remained its supporter almost until his execution ordered by Stalin in 1938.

I only wonder why some people label Jews who fought against Communism as "anti-Semites", rather than heroes.

Judeo-communism remains only a myth thanks to such Jewish people like Julian - who opposed even his own brother.
 
What?
 
Shouldn't this be against the forum rules or something?
 
Shouldn't this be against the forum rules or something?
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What? Writing about good Jews or writing about bad Jews? Or writing about Jews in general (or only about Polish Jews)?

Something about Judeo-Bolshevism; y'know, typical Domen stuff.
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Traitorfish - why do you always see and comment only 50% of what I write, or just one side of the medal?

I wrote about Jewish-Polish patriots as well, not only about Jewish-Polish communists.

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I wonder why there is no article on English wikipedia about Polish-Jewish professor Dora Kacnelson (דורה קאַצנעלסאָן):

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dora_Kacnelson

In 2002 professor Dora Kacnelson (1921 - 2003) was rewarded Polonia Mater Nostra Est medal.

Dora's uncle - Berl Kacnelson (1887 - 1944) was one of founders of the state of Israel. There is article about Berl on English wikipedia, but no article about Dora (so probably her biography contradicts the stereotype of Polish anti-Semitism, and this is why Western world decided that she must be forgotten):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berl_Katznelson

Dora Kacnelson criticized Polish-Jewish sociologist Jan Tomasz Gross for blowing out of proportion instances of anti-Semitism in Poland in his books.

Władysław Szpilman - another famous Polish-Jewish patriot - in his last interview (12.10.2002) also admitted, that:

http://www.polish-jewish-heritage.org/pol/listopad_szpilman.html

"Tadeusz Knade - How big / significant help was provided by inhabitants of Warsaw to hiding people of Jewish descent?
Władysław Szpilman - Very big. Poland is not an anti-Semitic country. The ones, who claim otherwise, are telling lies and are carrying out a very bad, hostile anti-Polish work."

In original:

"Tadeusz Knade - Jaką pomoc mieszkańcy Warszawy nieśli ukrywającym się osobom pochodzenia żydowskiego?
Władysław Szpilman - Bardzo dużą. Polska nie jest antysemickim krajem. Ci, co twierdzą przeciwnie, głoszą nieprawdę i prowadzą bardzo złą, wrogą Polsce robotę."

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I guess when observing Jewish attitudes towards Poland, one has to check heritage background of these Jews. It seems to me, that Jews whose heritage is from Polish Jewry (whose families come from Poland), are generally friendly towards Poland and are not spreading propaganda about Polish anti-Semitism.

On the other hand, Jews of German and Russian origins are often hostile towards Poland - just like non-Jewish Russians and Germans often still are.

Unfortunately, Polish-Jews are outnumbered by Russian-German Jews both in Israel and in the USA.

For example in Israel only 8,3% of Jews have Polish background (while 23,6% of them have either Russian or German background):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Jews

In the USA, I suppose, the community of Jewish migrants from Germany and from Russia is also more numerous than that from Poland.

Vast majority of anti-Polish Jews I know, are not Jews of Polish descent - with only a few exceptions (like Jan T. Gross). But even Jan T. Gross is not really anti-Polish, but he is rather simply not objective in his books, which is perhaps influenced by some prejudices and traumas from his past.

On the other hand, some Jews of German background riduculously sympathize with Germany and try to pin the blame for the Holocaust on non-Germans. Example of such a "Germanophile" German-Jewish person is the guy who was the main historical consultant of recent German TV series "Generation War" (check in BBC).

You cannot find such "Germanophile revisionist" Jews among Jews with Polish background, such as Shevah Weiss or people mentioned above.

So I must say, that the "Polish death camps, etc." lobby in Israel and in the USA is NOT Jewish lobby - it is German and Russian lobby, first of all.

Polish-Russian relations has always been bad for the last 500 years. So, unfortunately, we cannot hope for improvement in near future.

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BTW - Nazi Germany always considered Eastern Jews (Ostjuden) from Poland and from the USSR as "even more subhuman" than their own Jews. What is shocking, some of German Jews - especially ones who, in the 1930s, still considered themselves as loyal German citizens of the Reich, rather than as Jews - even shared such racist views of their "Aryan" compatriots, about those Eastern European Jews. One of proofs that "global Jewish conspiracy" theories are bullcrap, is precisely this fact - lack of solidarity between German / American and Eastern European Jews, sometimes even hostility between them (since German and American Jews often considered Eastern European Jews as worse than them). Where was the Jewish lobby in the US when entire world expected the US to declare war on Nazi Germany in 1939 - 1941? Why was it not helping its "brothers and sisters" from Germany and German-occupied or invaded countries of Europe?

US Jews often blame non-Jewish Poles for not helping their Jewish neighbours (and Jews transported to occupied Poland from entire Europe) well enough.

But what did American Jews do to convince their government to enter war early on, in order to prevent Nazi crimes? Nothing? Or not much.
 
Isn't this the "questions not worth thread own thread" thread? That enormous wall of text doesn't really qualify, I'd say.
 
Quick Question: Aside from the fact that the Schlieffen Plan was the greatest military strategy ever devised and would have worked if Moltke hadn't chickened out.

Okay, that was uncalled-for.

My question is: Did Napoleon really think his Russian Campaign had a chance of success?
 
Domen said:
Traitorfish - why do you always see and comment only 50% of what I write, or just one side of the medal?

I wrote about Jewish-Polish patriots as well, not only about Jewish-Polish communists.
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Well, far be it from me to cast aspersions on your good character, simply because you feel the need to spend hundreds of words informing strangers, apropos of nothing whatsoever that there were a handful of "good" Jews, too. No, that stands quite by itself, without the need of a single word of commentary.
 
There were a handful of "bad" Jews, a handful of "good" Jews and a lot of "neutral" Jews - like with most other societies.

I don't share any idealized version of the Jewish peoples (like you apparently do), but neither do I share anti-Jewish views of some lunatics.

BTW - one of the best books about Jewish history, is "The Jewish Civilization" by Feliks Koneczny, which has its English edition since 2011:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jewish-Civilization-Feliks-Koneczny/dp/095070511X

http://ksiegarnia.antyk.org.pl/x_C_I__P_23016451-23010001__PZTA_2.html

23016451_1.jpg


Short description:

The Jewish civilization is one of the oldest on earth. It has been in existence for about 4000 years and certainly it shall continue to have a place on the world scene. It is not defined by the kingdom of David or by the state of Israel, but by the ability of the Jews to live among non-Jews and yet maintain a separate identity. In what does this identity consist? This question interests not only Jews, but also all who interact with them on various levels. The better we know each other the easier it will be to avoid misunderstandings.

Feliks Koneczny (1862-1949) studied civilizations analysing their underlying ethical and also religious, legal and sociological components. Arnold Toynbee characterised him as a scholar who "approached his generalisations from the four standpoints: of a student of East European and Central Asian history, a Pole, a Roman Catholic Christian and a Westerner." Koneczny viewed the Jewish civilization from the outside, as a critic, but also admiring its versatility, durability and consistency.

Koneczny finished writing this book in 1943. At that time the largest portion of the world's Jewish population lived in Poland. Most of them followed a distinctive lifestyle setting them apart from the Polish population. They worshipped differently, dressed differently, spoke a different language, and lived in separate sectors of the towns. They appeared to be very different from the integrated Jews of the West. And yet Koneczny deciphered the nature of the bond tying them with the rest of the world's Jews. Koneczny knew nothing about the holocaust which was about to happen, and the state of Israel was something of the future. His conclusions however still remain pertinent in the present globalized world.
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I am just reading the Polish edition of his book - especially chapters IV ("Social Structure") and V have been fascinating so far - they describe how Jews evolved from a primitive and poor community of nomadic animal breeders, into what Koneczny calls - using a German term - "Weltbürger". The Babylonian captivity - according to Koneczny - should rather be called "the Babylonian prosperity" - it played a very positive role for the progress of Jewish people.

Review from Amazon (5 stars):

This review is from: Jewish Civilization (Paperback)

The masterpiece by a great scholar on civilizations, based on a thorough reading on historical, religious, legal and literary Jewish texts including the Talmud, the Kabbalah, Shulchan Aruch, Josephus, rabbinical letters and directives, gives one a lot of ethnological and anthropological insight. It debunks some well-established myths about Jewish Monotheism (describing the MANY Jewish religions that stem from their ancient monolatry) and sheds some light on what not necessarily comes to mind as the Jewish civilizational legacy. The occassional comment does not undermine the book's scholarly quality. A well-substantiated, coherent picture that allows one to make sense of the reality around, inluding the WWII, which followed just after its publication.
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Wait, is this the Feliks Koneczny who claimed that the Soviet Union was an essentially "Jewish" state, as opposed to the superior, "Latin" states of Western Europe? Or a different Feliks Koneczny?
 
In which book did he claim this?

IIRC, Koneczny considered Russia (and all of its variants - including the SU) as mostly a mix of Byzantine and Turanian (Mongol) civilizations.

But I am still reading chapters related to Antiquity, so I will tell you later what exactly he writes about the Soviet Union.

an essentially "Jewish" state, as opposed to the superior, "Latin" states of Western Europe?
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Koneczny considers sacral civilizations as inferior to non-sacral civilizations due to religious or religion-related limits they impose on individuals.

"Latin" civilization is according to Koneczny a non-sacral civilization ("Arabic" civilization is semi-sacral, original "Hebrew" civilization is sacral).

However, I am just reading his book and I've already come across a passage where he mentions how Jews gradually started to abandon radical aspects of their religion, in order to unblock some opportunities for progress (even switching from animal breeding and farming to trade required this).

So in this sense, I don't think Koneczny considered Jewish civilization - after rejecting its initially radical religious limits and laws - as inferior.

Jews adopted a lot from other civilizations - including Mesopotamian ones (Babylonian, Persian, etc.) and Hellenistic / Greek - according to Koneczny.

For example under the influence of Hellenistic civilization, Jews became more open to "secular sciences" and abandoned their strong "sacral suspicion".

As I wrote above, Koneczny describes evolution of Jews from herdsmen to "Weltbürger" - "citizens of the world" - is this pejorative? I don't think so.

Of course his book is not just a glorification of Jewish history - he also criticizes many aspects (apart from praising them as "Weltbürger", etc.).
 
I have paged through further chapters and for example in one of last chapters (XXXII) Koneczny debunks the Christian myth of blood libel, writing that there are no proofs for the claim of blood libel commited by Jews - he writes that there is only one single excerpt clearly related to drinking human blood in all Jewish religious writings - in Jore Dea books - and it says that when you get hurt in your lips (for example you accidentally cut your lips with your teeth), you are allowed to drink drops of blood dripping from this wound into your cup, instead of pouring out entire contents and thus wasting your drink. But he does not exclude the possibility that there were / are psychopats, serial killers, etc., who commit criminal homicides. He also does not totally exclude the possibility, that the alleged ritual murders could have been commited by some religious sect of unknown origin, maybe a sect of Judaism, maybe a sect of Christianity, etc.
 
No, because no-one should be believing it in this day and age in the first place! To "debunk" a myth is to show that something that many people believe is true, is actually false. Only the most extremist anti-semites would believe the blood libel today. To talk about "debunking" it is like talking about "debunking" geocentrism.

Domen, it is hard to see what place these enormous posts have in a thread that, as the others have pointed out, is supposed to be for fairly brief questions and answers. Your posts on this page and the previous one seem to have nothing to do with any questions that have actually been asked here.
 
No, because no-one should be believing it in this day and age in the first place!
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But remember that Koneczny wrote this book in 1920s to early 1930s (with a few fragments added during early WW2), not "in this day and age".

Koneczny started his entire interest in researching and describing history of various civilizations in 1917.

===============================

BTW - chapter XXXVIII is about "De-Judaized Jews" - the spread of Christianity, as well as religious indifference and atheism, among Jews. By "De-Judaization" Koneczny understands abandoning the religion of Judaism, Jewish culture (and for example adopting Western culture), or both of them.
 
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