History Quiz III (with rules)
- Thread starter Parsifal
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Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
Who was the famous wife of the emperor Septimius Severus?
Porphyrogenitos
Γένοιος Όιος έσαι μαθών
Porphyrogenitos
Γένοιος Όιος έσαι μαθών
Since no one has resonded and I'm sure I'm correct, I'll post the next question.
Which king retorted "Come and get them" to an enemy's demand for a weapons surrender?
Which king retorted "Come and get them" to an enemy's demand for a weapons surrender?
Ukas
Pthooey of Tomainia
My favorite ancient king Leonidas of the Spartans to the Persian king Xerxes, "Mulan labe!" or something like that. In Thermopylai pass he died with 300? of his men to save more lives of his troops. A truly rare king.
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
You're correct. It's funny that you posted her bust, cause I was originally going to do that myself for the question. She's a pretty girl...for a statue that is
Porphyrogenitos
Γένοιος Όιος έσαι μαθών
Ukas you are right. The actual Greek phrase was Molon Labe (pronounced lave) which translates as "Come and receive them".
Leonidas was a general/king in the knightly tradition of later years. When told by the Persian envoys that Xerxes had enough archers to blot out the sun with arrows Leonidas is claimed to have retorted, "Then we shall fight in the shade". Nothing quite like these brilliant quips to get your troops motivated.
Your question Ukas.
Leonidas was a general/king in the knightly tradition of later years. When told by the Persian envoys that Xerxes had enough archers to blot out the sun with arrows Leonidas is claimed to have retorted, "Then we shall fight in the shade". Nothing quite like these brilliant quips to get your troops motivated.
Your question Ukas.
Ukas
Pthooey of Tomainia
Thank you sir!
I guess my question is a bit of a brainer - but I know there's people who can give the answer straight away. Here it goes:
Reinhard Heydrich, one of the key figures in the SS, was assassinated in 1942 by Czech agents trained in Britain. They were armed with Sten submachineguns, why?
Answer "they were trained in Britain" isn't obviously enough.
I guess my question is a bit of a brainer - but I know there's people who can give the answer straight away. Here it goes:
Reinhard Heydrich, one of the key figures in the SS, was assassinated in 1942 by Czech agents trained in Britain. They were armed with Sten submachineguns, why?
Answer "they were trained in Britain" isn't obviously enough.
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
That'd be in modern Greek only.
Porphyrogenitos
Γένοιος Όιος έσαι μαθών
Calcagus, I'm confused...why only in M. Greek? The Greek 'b' is (and always has been) pronounced as a 'v' sound.
Porphyrogenitos
Γένοιος Όιος έσαι μαθών
As for the question...I would say because the gun was easy to use (not to meantion cheap) and parts could be found anywhere. The assassin were not first rate (hence the ease of use factor) while the Czech government in exile could hardly afford better armaments (hence the cost factor).
According to William Shirer's account, Heydrich was killed from wounds sustained from a grenade explosion and not from these guns. The Sten gun carried by Joseph Gabchick failed to fire, hence the need for a grenade.
Heydrich got what he deserved though...and of course the Nazi's went on to prove yet again how 'civilized' and 'superior' they could be by torching and massacaring everyone in Lidice. Frightful place even today.
According to William Shirer's account, Heydrich was killed from wounds sustained from a grenade explosion and not from these guns. The Sten gun carried by Joseph Gabchick failed to fire, hence the need for a grenade.
Heydrich got what he deserved though...and of course the Nazi's went on to prove yet again how 'civilized' and 'superior' they could be by torching and massacaring everyone in Lidice. Frightful place even today.
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
That's not what almost every scholar outside Greece thinks. In Greece, they, the common people at least, think it was pronounced the same as in ancient times.
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
Some of the evidence is in the link:
Pronunciation of Beta
You had better read the Greek quotes from the Greek section at the bottom, since the rendering of the Greek quotes into the Latin alphabet is highly inadequate.
Pronunciation of Beta
You had better read the Greek quotes from the Greek section at the bottom, since the rendering of the Greek quotes into the Latin alphabet is highly inadequate.
Porphyrogenitos
Γένοιος Όιος έσαι μαθών
Calcagus those are only a hand full of words which are pronounced as 'b' (mainly animal sounds). The word labe is actually pronounced lave...as a 'v' sound. There is no contention about this one. The root of the word is labein (lavein). On this you need to take my word for it (I didn't study ancient Greek for nothing).
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
Well, I ain't gonna take your word for it, because the evidence is too strong. There is no evidence for a "v" pronunciation before the Byzantines. On this, you'll have to take my word for it (I didn't study ancient Greek for nothing), the one-sided evidence and the almost universal acceptance of this fact amongst classical philologist (they don't become authorities on ancient Greek for nothing.)
I can only assume that you're a Greek, 'cause only they seem to think that.
Porphyrogenitos
Γένοιος Όιος έσαι μαθών
Calgacus (your name wouldn't happen to be McGuigan?), I am not Greek but I have been translating ancient Greek texts for some twenty years now. The Greek letter 'b' is by and large pronounced as as 'v' sound and that is not scholarship but plain grammatical knowledge. The word basileus for example has always been vasileus (king). The ancients, like their modern counterparts use 'mp' for the 'b' sound and this predates Byzantine times (which is my specialization here at university by the way). I have not been teaching for over 20 years at university to NOT be in a position to know these things. The 'b' sounding like a latin 'B' exists in certain cases of words which are or refer to foreigners (non-Hellenes). Your point is taken but in the case of the word 'labe' it is a clear 'v' sound.
Words in English also have varient pronounciations but in the majority of cases stick to their root. Greek is the same. Take the Greek 'X' (chi) which is pronounced as a 'k' sound sometimes, but by and large is a 'chi' sound. Hope this helps clarify. I'm not contesting the occasional 'b' sounding but rather the specific sounding of 'labe'.
PS I wish some of my students had your zeal...oh and if you happen to be one of them then we can discuss this in greater detail.
Words in English also have varient pronounciations but in the majority of cases stick to their root. Greek is the same. Take the Greek 'X' (chi) which is pronounced as a 'k' sound sometimes, but by and large is a 'chi' sound. Hope this helps clarify. I'm not contesting the occasional 'b' sounding but rather the specific sounding of 'labe'.
PS I wish some of my students had your zeal...oh and if you happen to be one of them then we can discuss this in greater detail.
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
I don't think you're right. But you have to at least concede that the matter is not clear cut. No matter how long you've been translating Greek for, thousands of scholars all over the world disagree with you. It's not a case of your authority versus mine, but arguments versus arguments.
One might add the Latin word alphabetum. The classical Romans with few exceptions rendered Beta words with B, not with V.
MB does not seem to represent B in ancient Greek. Take a look at the Liddell and Scott lexicon for instance, there is no word beginning with MP.
The notion that Byzantine and modern Greek pronunciation accurately represents ancient pronunciation was originally held in the West when Byzantine scholars reintroduced it, but it was dismissed by Erasmus, and has held little ground since.
BTW, what makes you think that is my name
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
DP
Porphyrogenitos
Γένοιος Όιος έσαι μαθών
Had a student by that name who asked me a while back about this sort of thing.
And scholarship doesnot favour the 'b' over the 'v' as the dominant pronounciation key. Yet another example: I was priveliged to attend a performance of the Bachae in ancient Greek done by a fellow eductaor in an American campus and he insisted on the 'v' usage for Vakhos (Bacchus/Bakhos/Dionysus etc).
Also the Roman use of 'b' rather than 'v' is a common attribute of Latin. The word for Italy used by the Greeks was Vitelium/Vitelia from which the word Italia/Italy emerges. The Romans dropped the unpronouncable 'v' and used Italia instead. The 'b' in the word alphabetum could not be dropped because then it would be A (alpha) and I (eta/ita) in Greek (as opposed to A and B) which wouldn't do, hence the use of the 'b'. For more on this you can look at the work done by Dr Stone (who I believe is teaching in Australia now though don't quote me on this).
As far as pronounciation goes however it cannot be assertained exactly what was the correct form. Most lexicographers utilize modern day patterns and this is generally considered the 'correct form'. Notice I didn't say absolutely true form.
In any event the word 'labe' is pronounced as 'lave' so there is no need to disagree with me based on contentious linguistic points. Most people (all the ones I know) use the 'v' form and it is the most widely accepted form for this particular word. I would like to see you prove me otherwise with regard to this word.
And scholarship doesnot favour the 'b' over the 'v' as the dominant pronounciation key. Yet another example: I was priveliged to attend a performance of the Bachae in ancient Greek done by a fellow eductaor in an American campus and he insisted on the 'v' usage for Vakhos (Bacchus/Bakhos/Dionysus etc).
Also the Roman use of 'b' rather than 'v' is a common attribute of Latin. The word for Italy used by the Greeks was Vitelium/Vitelia from which the word Italia/Italy emerges. The Romans dropped the unpronouncable 'v' and used Italia instead. The 'b' in the word alphabetum could not be dropped because then it would be A (alpha) and I (eta/ita) in Greek (as opposed to A and B) which wouldn't do, hence the use of the 'b'. For more on this you can look at the work done by Dr Stone (who I believe is teaching in Australia now though don't quote me on this).
As far as pronounciation goes however it cannot be assertained exactly what was the correct form. Most lexicographers utilize modern day patterns and this is generally considered the 'correct form'. Notice I didn't say absolutely true form.
In any event the word 'labe' is pronounced as 'lave' so there is no need to disagree with me based on contentious linguistic points. Most people (all the ones I know) use the 'v' form and it is the most widely accepted form for this particular word. I would like to see you prove me otherwise with regard to this word.
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