History Rewritten (Original Thread)

[Howard Mahler]

Tech works much better overall than in version 0.9.0,
at least for the one game I have played.
Thanks!
(I was on a huge map at marathon speed.)

Early tech was at a reasonable speed.
I did not run into the early extreme commerce crunch.

Around 1000 AD the tech cost started being a little low, and could afford to be higher.
I think starting with somewhere about Constitution the tech costs could/should be higher.
(Feedback from others would help and this is only one game.)

Right now I am in 1460 AD, and am researching Replacable Parts.
(I am one of about 4 or 5 civs near the front of the tech pack.)
I have attached three saved games from different years that you can look over if you would find that informative.

For the next version, please finish the tech tree or at least make all the tech costs consistent even for the parts of the tree you have not redesigned.

 

[Howard Mahler]

Minor point, but Versailles does not seem to go at all with Labor Unions.

 

[Howard Mahler]

Does this start a Golden Age, like the other special national wonders?
In any case, it does not say so in the Civilopedia.

 

[Howard Mahler]

Olives and cotton were good additions.

Any plans for any more?

Maybe tobacco, potatoes, coconuts, or items from subsaharan Africa or New Guinea.

Coffee, Tea, Chocolate.

Sugar Cane, Cassava, Sorgum.

 

[Xyth]

I seem to have sporadic mobile internet here

Tech works much better overall than in version 0.9.0,
at least for the one game I have played.
Thanks!
(I was on a huge map at marathon speed.)

Early tech was at a reasonable speed.
I did not run into the early extreme commerce crunch.

Glad to hear. I assume this was on Monarch difficulty again?

Around 1000 AD the tech cost started being a little low, and could afford to be higher.
I think starting with somewhere about Constitution the tech costs could/should be higher.
(Feedback from others would help and this is only one game.)

Right now I am in 1460 AD, and am researching Replacable Parts.
(I am one of about 4 or 5 civs near the front of the tech pack.)
I have attached three saved games from different years that you can look over if you would find that informative.

Now that the early game seems to be more balanced it will be much easier to adjust costs in the middle and later game. Thanks for the saved games. They'll be valuable when testing. Instinctually it seems to me that the best places to increase coats would be near the techs that provide a substantial research boost: somewhere around Education and Printing would be the first place I'd try.

For the next version, please finish the tech tree or at least make all the tech costs consistent even for the parts of the tree you have not redesigned.

Finishing the tech tree is going to be a slow process, I need to have a serious think about how much I want to expand the modern eras; it's not an area of history I'm that knowledgeable of. Suggestions for 'essential' additions here welcomed. I'm unlikely to go as far as having a well defined WW1 and WW2 era though; I feel this is best left to dedicated scenarios.

I'll expand the tree a little further in 0.9.2, try to finish the Industrial era at the least. Now that the earlier tech costs seem balanced I'll be able to adjust the costs of the BTS tech tree 'remnants' to match better.

Minor point, but Versailles does not seem to go at all with Labor Unions.

I put it there temporarily and forgot to go back and find a proper home for it. Any suggestions? I'm not familiar with the history of Versailles.

Does this start a Golden Age, like the other special national wonders?
In any case, it does not say so in the Civilopedia.

If it doesn't say in the Pedia then it won't be starting a Golden Age. That'll be a mistake caused when I fixed the duplicate Military Academy bug in 0.9.1. Might be affecting other Military Academy UWs too, I'll have to check. Good spotting!

Olives and cotton were good additions.

Any plans for any more?

Definitely. Those two were easy to add because they were already in Civ4, just only in certain scenarios. I plan to add quite a few more resources but I don't have the list on me at the moment. No timeframe yet though.

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

Versailles was originally a hunting lodge, built for one of the King Louis's.
Despite the fact that it was a hunting lodge, it was very well made, so maybe Engineering?

 

[Howard Mahler]

Here are some more from my same game on Monarch, Huge Map, Marathon.
I hope they are useful.

By 1700 I am researching Radio, which 4 others already have.
(I am I believe 2nd in the tech race.)
In my opinion, there is plenty of room to slow tech down, well before Education.

After Gunpowder, there is also a need to work some more on spreading units among more different techs and getting the spacing and order right. Probably some more techs need to be added to this part of the tree, which would also slow down the progress of tech.

 

[Howard Mahler]

Versailles I believe went with Divine Right, which worked well I thought.
Don't see any good candidates in your current tree.
In any case, Versailles could afford to be a little earlier.

Versailles was originally a hunting lodge, built for one of the King Louis's.
Despite the fact that it was a hunting lodge, it was very well made, so maybe Engineering?

 

[Howard Mahler]

Some ideas:

Chemistry should require Alchemy or Gunpowder.

Physics should require Machinery or Hydraulics.

Labor Unions requiring Journalism does not seem to make much sense.
Maybe Journalism could lead to Radio or some tech that would in turn be needed for Radio.

Maybe Labour Unions rather than Steam Power should increase workers speed.

Not sure that Astronomy quite fits in as well as it could.
For real Astronomy you need Mathematics.
Mere stargazing or Astrology came before real Astronomy.
The Greeks had what we would think of as a primitive form of Astronomy by 1 AD.

Maybe you could have:
Divination needs Ritual.
Astrology needs Divination and Calendar.
Astronomy needs Math and Astrology.
Navigation needs Ship Building and Astronomy.
Philosophy needs Writing and Rhetoric (ancient art of public speaking).
Rhetoric needs Oral Tradition.

Maybe Aesthetics should require Philosophy.

Biology currently has no direct positive, while obsoleting Cemeteries.
(Biology des lead to later techs.)
Thus people will tend to avoid researching Biology as long as possible.

Just some thoughts.
As I have mentioned, I believe that where they make sense some cross connections between the tech tree, other than those in your rectangular arrangement, would be beneficial.

 

[Howard Mahler]

I do not seem to be getting the advertised -25% for upgrading units.

 

[Xyth]

Back home again

Here are some more from my same game on Monarch, Huge Map, Marathon.
I hope they are useful.

They will be, thanks.

In my opinion, there is plenty of room to slow tech down, well before Education.

Around education I think there needs to be a big leap, but there could well be some smaller ones before that too. However, there's something I'd like to try first: before your next game could you please find the file /History Rewritten/Assets/XML/GameInfo/Civ4WorldInfo.xml and delete or remove it. Let me know how this compares to your game as Ramesses.

After Gunpowder, there is also a need to work some more on spreading units among more different techs and getting the spacing and order right. Probably some more techs need to be added to this part of the tree, which would also slow down the progress of tech.

I think there's room for another column of techs in the late renaissance. I'll see what I can come up with.

Labor Unions requiring Journalism does not seem to make much sense. Maybe Journalism could lead to Radio or some tech that would in turn be needed for Radio.

I'm not too happy with the placement of Journalism. I want to shift it later and replace it with something like Civil Liberties.

Maybe Labour Unions rather than Steam Power should increase workers speed.

Good idea.

Not sure that Astronomy quite fits in as well as it could.
For real Astronomy you need Mathematics.
Mere stargazing or Astrology came before real Astronomy.
The Greeks had what we would think of as a primitive form of Astronomy by 1 AD.

Yeah I considered having both Astrology and Astronomy as techs, the former in the ancient era, the latter somewhere in the late Medieval or Renaissance eras. I chose not to since I needed some bonuses to give to Physics but it's something I might reinstate later as the techtree evolves.

Philosophy needs Writing and Rhetoric (ancient art of public speaking).
Rhetoric needs Oral Tradition.

I have a list of unused tech ideas and Rhetoric is on it. There are so many possibilities for the ancient/classical era that it would be easy to have that part of the tree extended massively but I need to finish the other end of the tree before considering any more early extensions.

Biology currently has no direct positive, while obsoleting Cemeteries.
(Biology des lead to later techs.)
Thus people will tend to avoid researching Biology as long as possible.

Biology should be unlocking Hospitals and the Red Cross.

I do not seem to be getting the advertised -25% for upgrading units.

Looks like I've broken something here (and probably for the Progressive trait too).

 

[Howard Mahler]

You are correct.

I should have said that losing the +1 health from Cemeteries already built, not to mention the free priest, is not a big incentive to be able to build Hospitals.
I delayed researching Biology a very long time as well as all but one of the AI civilizations (not sure whether the latter is meaningful.)

Bottom line, at that point in the tech tree there seem to be other things much more useful to research. It would helpful if somehow there was a little more positive to Biology, either directly or due to the techs it unlocks.


"Biology should be unlocking Hospitals and the Red Cross."

 

[Xyth]

Small update:

I'm currently working on tidying up the modern end of the techtree for 0.9.2. I'll hopefully have a preview diagram soon.

 

[Skwink]

Well I'm getting back into Civ IV, I'm gonna have to download this again.

 

[Howard Mahler]

I usually do not play with vassal states.
In the diplomatic leader trait, what does "stronger vassals" mean?

 

[Xyth]

I usually do not play with vassal states.
In the diplomatic leader trait, what does "stronger vassals" mean?

They get a (scaling) gold and combat experience bonus each turn.

Btw, sorry for the delay on the 0.9.2 techtree preview, I ended up making more extensive changes than I initially intended and thus I still have a fair bit to sort before I can preview anything effectively.

 

[Andrewicus]

This version seems to be more stable than any other i've got to say, really great so far, just a couple bugs I've observed.

As others have reported the tech tree doesn't seem to mesh very well. It is entirely possible to get to Robotics and mechanized infantry prior to researching steam power and railroads, it kind of draws one out of things. Otherwise I do like the redesign, it just seems to be too easily gamed by railroading to one tech with many techs that would be logically required being missed.

One bug(?) is that Poland does not get its version of the cuirassiers at the same time as everyone else, in fact they are 2 techs removed which seems unjustified for the UU, especially since it's right about in line with the unit that replaces it. anyway if its a bug, there you go, if its intended my two cents would be change it to at least the tech before Military Tradition.

Finally, and I don't know if you can figure this out but when religions are founded via the new method of great prophets it causes an out of sync error in multiplayer.

I don't have save games for these i'm afraid and all of it is preferrable to crashing! Thank you so much for all your hard work Xyth, you've provided a great deal of fun to my brother and I and our wives.

 

[Xyth]

As others have reported the tech tree doesn't seem to mesh very well. It is entirely possible to get to Robotics and mechanized infantry prior to researching steam power and railroads, it kind of draws one out of things. Otherwise I do like the redesign, it just seems to be too easily gamed by railroading to one tech with many techs that would be logically required being missed.

I'm currently working on completely the techtree all the way through the modern era for 0.9.2. This will hopefully solve this issue though there will no doubt be balance and progression adjustments to make after that. Hoping to have a preview very soon.

One bug(?) is that Poland does not get its version of the cuirassiers at the same time as everyone else, in fact they are 2 techs removed which seems unjustified for the UU, especially since it's right about in line with the unit that replaces it. anyway if its a bug, there you go, if its intended my two cents would be change it to at least the tech before Military Tradition.

That is definitely a bug. For the record, all UUs should have the same tech requirements as the unit they replace unless it states otherwise in their pedia description. If you spot any others please let me know.

Finally, and I don't know if you can figure this out but when religions are founded via the new method of great prophets it causes an out of sync error in multiplayer.

Damn, I was hoping that wouldn't happen. Not an easy fix unfortunately, I'll have to ask around in the SDK/Python forums for some expert help. As a result I probably won't be able to fix this until 0.9.3

Glad to hear it has otherwise been stable for you though!

 

[Howard Mahler]

As per your request I removed the file /History Rewritten/Assets/XML/GameInfo/Civ4WorldInfo.xml.

Here are some saves from that game.
(I am up to 1000 AD and researching Constitution.)

 

[Xyth]

Thanks for those. Which tech speed do you prefer so far (with or without Civ4WorldInfo.xml)?