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History Rewritten (Original Thread)

Discussion in '[MAC+WIN] Civ4 - History Rewritten' started by Xyth, Feb 9, 2010.

  1. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    And here is the 3rd and hopefully final draft of the traits. Some will probably need a few tweaks once people have had a chance to try them out in actual games but unless there is anything that seems considerably unbalanced I want consider these finished or now and move on with getting 0.9.4 released.

    Except for Progressive I have all of these coded and working in game. Changes from the previous draft are in red:


    AGGRESSIVE
    • Increased wealth from pillaging and capturing cities
    • Commando promotion for Melee, Mounted, Gunpowder
    • +1 happiness from Barracks, Stadium

    CHARISMATIC
    • -25% war weariness
    • +1 combat experience per battle
    • +2 happiness per city

    CREATIVE
    • Allows 1 Artist in every city
    • +50% Wonder production
    • +1 happiness from Theatre, Tavern

    DIPLOMATIC
    • +1 espionage per specialist
    • +2 relations with other civilizations
    • +50% commerce from trade routes

    ENTERPRISING
    • Allows 1 Merchant in every city
    • +1 trade route in every city
    • Sentry promotion for Mounted, Naval, Recon Units

    EXPANSIVE
    • +1 food per city
    • 50% faster production of Settler
    • Double production speed of Harbour, Sewer

    FINANCIAL
    • +1 commerce per city
    • 1% compound interest earned on wealth
    • Double production speed of Market, Bank

    HUMANE
    • 100% longer Golden Ages
    • +2 health per city
    • +1 happiness from Aqueduct, Bath

    IMPERIALIST
    • No resistance in captured cities
    • -33% hurry production cost
    • +100% Great General emergence

    INDUSTRIOUS
    • +1 production per city
    • +50% faster production of Worker, Workboat
    • Double production speed of Forge

    JUDICIAL
    • All Government civics available
    • +100% defense against espionage and spies
    • +1 happiness from Jail, Courthouse

    ORGANIZED
    • Workers build improvements 50% faster
    • -25% civic upkeep
    • Double production speed of Library (Courthouse removed)

    PHILOSOPHICAL
    • +1 culture per specialist
    • +100% Great Person birth rate
    • Double production speed of School

    PROGRESSIVE
    • Allows 1 Scientist in every city
    • +100% Growth for Cottage, Hamlet, Village
    • -50% unit upgrade cost

    PROTECTIVE
    • Improvements are protected from Pillaging
    • Medic I promotion for Melee, Archery, Gunpowder Units
    • +1 happiness for Walls, Castle

    SPIRITUAL
    • Allows 1 Priest in every city
    • No anarchy
    • Double production speed of Cemetery, Great Temple

    TACTICAL
    • All Military civics available
    • Wealth earned by defeating Enemy Units
    • Combat I promotion for Melee, Mounted, Gunpowder units

    TRADITIONAL
    • +5 happiness in capital
    • -25% production for buildings already constructed in capital
    • Units killed in cultural borders add to city culture



    Notes:

    Judicial: Decided I wanted to stick with the Espionage defense bonus to see how it goes. Doubled it to 100%, it will make espionage (passive and active) against a Judicial leader extremely expensive and prohibitive and enemy spies will be caught with ease. Total immunity was not possible to code.

    Organized: I didn't want to break those bonuses up as I think they suit the trait very well. So instead I decided to weaken them.

    Progressive: I figured out a way to code the Cottage/etc growth bonus after all, though I haven't actually finished it writing it yet.

    Tactical: Same as before but not restricted to enemy territory, and barbarians/animals are excluded.

    Traditional: The +1 specialist for Wonders proved to be far too difficult to code, plus I decided it was too strong for what is really the flavour bonus of the trait.
     
  2. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    Alright, that sounds cool. I'm going to be adding a new trait (tentatively called Influential) and also change around a couple of my previous traits with different bonuses. Anyhow, a quick question - I don't think there is, but just in case, there shouldn't be an issue with copying code from a macintosh mod to a windows one, right?
     
  3. Simon_Jester

    Simon_Jester Prince

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    I would submit that it might be reasonable to allow one or two exceptions to one's own bias, out of fifty.

    ...Yes?

    I'm not sure I like this, thematically. "Globalization" means very different organizations of labor for different countries- in the US it means the decline and fall of the manufacturing sector; in India it means the boom of said sector.

    The watermills bonus seems kind of arbitrary, and not very useful, especially since there usually aren't many of them in the game unless you luck out on map layout.

    Um. I'm not so sure about this; I think it works better the way it was. Among other things, because this makes Professional Army pretty clearly superior- especially since "can rush production with gold" lets you avoid civics in other categories that would let you do it.

    Er... I'm not sure that's what's meant by Emancipation, Azoth. in fact, I'm pretty sure it's the opposite of what he was thinking of, or close to it.

    Why do you make Professional Army available so early?

    I like this, but we need to think of a name and effect...

    I'm not sure I agree. Many nations with a professional army (organized staff and so on) turned out fairly uninspired performances in actual warfare. And professional armies are often very good at processing large numbers of recruits into the military, as well as organizing the logistics for such forces. So you can justify the production bonus- a professional army is more likely to have ties to the military-industrial complex than a chivalry-oriented army.

    I support this.



    I'm not sure unlimited Scientists would be worth the High Upkeep costs. It might be better to change Industrialism to +1 gold/specialist (the savings from industrial mass production) and retain +2 science (or even +3 science)/specialist for Rationalism. The civic makes much more sense that way: during the Age of Reason and the Enlightenment, science was still a niche hobby for the idle rich, but many of the most important contributions came from amateurs - abbots, economists, inventors - that is to say, non-scientists.

    Erm. That lends itself to strategies that use Free Religion for a rapid burst of proselytization, then clamp back down. Also, why Mobility promotions? It's not like there's any shortage of roads between cities by the time Free Religion rolls around
     
  4. Azoth

    Azoth Inscrutable

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    As a whole, I must say, they look good. :goodjob: Good job team!

    I still feel that transferring -50% civic upkeep to Judicial (natural leaders who can govern effectively) and leaving +100% espionage and spy defense for Organized (alert leaders who safeguard information and run thorough personnel checks) would be the better alternative. Also, the new Traditional bonus strikes me as bizarre, notwithstanding that it was probably inspired by the Aztec UA in Civilization V.

    I do hope that you have coded the other Traditional bonus as "+25% production for buildings already constructed in the capital," which is how all the other HR bonuses are implemented, instead of "-25% cost for buildings already constructed in the capital," which would be somewhat stronger and interact in strange ways with other production bonuses.


    Simon Jester, you raise some fine points. Let me think about them some more and come up with a second draft. At the moment, I am planning to redesign Emancipation as Welfare State, eliminate Mercantilism (it is far too difficult to balance that "no foreign trade route" bonus), and introduce a new civic, Mechanization, to the Economy column. Without considering the actual bonuses involved, do you have any thoughts about these changes on a conceptual level?
     
  5. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Shouldn't be any issues at all. If you do get any it would be because of different encodings for tabs and line returns but I'm pretty sure all my files are saved in Windows-friendly formats now.
     
  6. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    That's a valid interpretation too. I'll leave it as is til we come up with a more suitable idea.

    Yeah it's not the most elegant of civics, in HR or in BTS. Worth finding a better implementation if we can, or a replacement.

    My thinking here was that while they can't trade with foreign civs, a Mercantilist civ's domestic trade routes would be very strong. They do cancel each other out, though the playstyle/strategy elements remain. Though perhaps we could increase the trade route bonus?

    I think that the XP bonus could suit either of them thematically but that the production bonus definitely suits Professional Army better.

    I put it in the Classical era because of armies such as those of Assyria and Rome. I could consider renaming it and shifting it later though. Where to?

    Hmm, I can see that. +1 gold per specialist for Industrialism, +2 research per specialist for Rationalism.

    I have to concur with Simon's point here, I really don't think Globalization is suitable for a Labour civic.

    I think something along the lines of Welfare State is the best option.

    I can't give promotions via civics, its very messy. Unlimited missionaries would require code attached to the AI's 'what can I build' routines and that affects performance negatively. Not worth it for such a minor thing.

    Fair comment, I'll think about it some more when the time comes to add new civs.

    I'm grateful to everyone who has given feedback, advice and suggestions on these so far, and no doubt for further feedback to come. I think they've come out pretty good and I've enjoyed the challenge of coding them.

    Actually I wasn't aware of the Aztec UA. I came up with this while considering other uses for the code I wrote for Tactical. Note that the culture bonus goes to the city nearest the battle, is based on the amount of experience the fallen unit has and can come from either your own units or enemy units, so long as the unit is in your territory. I agree that's it's a little bizarre but it's meant to be primarily flavour. I decide to give it to Traditional as I think it suits leaders like Boudica, fighting to preserve their way of life. Both victory and defeat in this endeavour become sources of cultural pride and glory.

    It's the latter. I would have preferred the former implementation but it was significantly more challenging to code and might have required significant slow down in AI decision making routines. I may have an another attempt at coding it again in the future.

    What is Mechanization? If Mercantilism is to be replaced I think I'd like to see some sort of Protectionist/Regulated economy civic, the counterpoint to Free Market.
     
  7. Azoth

    Azoth Inscrutable

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    Under a Confederation, member cities enjoy a certain cultural autonomy: regional cultures are less likely to fall victim to homogenization. So I suggest +25% culture. I do think this bonus works better than +25% espionage; and it creates more options for players pursuing Culture Victories: do they go for more production in the capital (Monarchy), more GPP and stronger towns (Democracy), or a flat culture bonus (Confederation)? Since I plan to add +25% culture to the Economy column (see below), the right civic choices, spread out over four columns, will once again deliver +100% culture, as in BtS.

    I see your point, but I can't see any reason to adopt Professional Army if it keeps +25% unit production and +100% Great General points. As it stands, Conscription is the civic of choice for peaceful games: upgrade your few experienced units on the cheap, and draft units in response to a surprise attack. Warrior Code is preferable for a military buildup: you'll be building Barracks anyway, and an extra promotion via that +2 XP could come in very handy. Vassalage is ideal for the start of an offensive: lower unit costs are important now that you have a real army, and +100% XP is superior to +100% Great General points (especially if that bonus XP contributes to Great General points anyway.) Finally, Clan Warfare is the civic of last resort for drawn-out wars: it eliminates war wariness and nets some kind of profit from looting and pillaging. (Naturally, players will not be able to rotate through all four civics unless they are Spiritual or can pair the swaps with civics from another category; but they will have some reason to pick each civic, depending on the circumstances.) Professional Army has no role to play, unless it trades +25% unit production for +2 XP (in which case Warrior Code would be best civic for military buildup until you discovered Professional Army); or +100% Great General Points for +100% XP.

    As exceptions to the rule, I think the armies of Assyria and Rome are probably best represented by Tactical leaders and their "All Military civics available" ability. I would move the renamed Standing Army to either Military Conduct (which should also be renamed) or Military Science. At the same time, I would move Warrior Code back to the age of Samurai and Knights at Steel Working. Conscription could also be moved back to Employment, since Law already unlocks the Authoritarianism civic.

    Yeah, Mechanization was a meaningless dead end. I opted to resurrect State Property instead. Consider:

    Professionalism, Medium Upkeep, unlocked at Artisanry
    +1 hammer Workshops
    +1 commerce Workshops
    +2 happy Market
    +25% culture

    Free Market, Medium Upkeep, unlocked at Economics
    +1 trade route/city
    unlimited Merchants
    -25% Corporation expenses

    State Property, High Upkeep, unlocked at Nationalism
    +1 food Watermills, Workshops
    unlimited Scientists
    +50% Wonder production
    no Corporations


    Unlimited Merchants moves to Free Market, the civic of entrepreneurs, which is enabled earlier, at Economics. (The Great Merchant at Economics moves back one step to Banking, where Mercantilism once was.) Professionalism picks up +25% culture, in recognition of traditional artisan occupations and to round off culture from civics at 100%. State Property keeps +1 food Watermills and Windmills and no Corporations from BtS. It adds unlimited Scientists (in the modern era, basic research is almost entirely state-funded) and +50% Wonder production (only the state could afford the resources for late game wonders like the Kremlin, the Taj Mahal, and the Three Gorges Dam.) The High Upkeep and no Corporation penalty keeps this civic balanced, I think.

    In my defense, I think there are multiple possible interpretations for Emancipation in the Labour column. One way to think about it is freedom from traditional hereditary occupations (whether peasantry, slavery, caste, or factory); that is, freedom to pursue an education in the field of your choice, and freedom to sell your services on the open market: in other words, freedom of contract. Another way to think about it is freedom from exploitative labour conditions (whether peasantry, slavery, caste, or factory); that is, freedom to organize labour unions, with the assurance of a social safety net: in other words, a welfare state. So how about:

    Welfare State, High Upkeep
    +50% trade route commerce
    can rush production with gold


    I think this is a viable alternative to Industrialism. +50% trade route commerce will dwarf +1 gold/specialist in most cases. Unlimited Engineers are unnecessary once you've built Factories and Industrial Parks everywhere. The ability to rush production is very valuable and there's no health penalty, to boot.

    How about "Missionaries are always successful," instead?

    There is great synergy between faster/more effective missionaries and +1 happy/religion. The more you spread religions, the more you are tempted to keep Free Religion.

    The problem is not so much the mechanic itself, as the fact that extra culture in random cities is not very useful. You would never let enemy units come anywhere near your three culture cities in a Culture Victory. I suppose extra culture in a border city (where fighting is most likely to take place) could come in handy, especially if it extends those borders. I guess we'll see in 0.9.4.

    Actually, I did some math and found that the difference is minimal.

    Suppose you want to build a 120-hammer building (that you have already constructed in the capital) in a city with a Forge making 8 (base) hammers/turn:
    With +25% production, you get: 8+50% = 12 hammers/turn. 120/12 = 10 turns
    With -25% cost, you get 8+25% = 10 hammers/turn and 120-25% = 90 hammers. 90/10 = 9 turns.

    As I say, the difference is small.
     
  8. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    I'd considered a culture bonus but my feelings were that if anything a Confederation lacks unified culture/identity compared to other government types. Like the espionage I think this is something that could be interpreted either way.

    Well if we're shifting Professional/Standing Army later then we could also add a small third bonus to help it compete with Warrior Code a bit better. I'll have to think about these some more.

    Agreed.

    Given I'd prefer to not use the +50% commerce from trade routes in the Labour category (see below) that leaves that, +1 trade route and unlimited Merchants all as options for these two civics. So while the culture bonus fits to a certain degree I don't we need it here.

    Wonder production unfortunately requires additional coding and thus creates AI problems. It's a pain but we're pretty limited in what we can add to civics, only minor flavour bonuses are feasible to code. I agree that is this is probably the best place to move unlimited scientists too and that no corporations should be maintained.

    Namewise, State Property works though I'd possibly prefer something a little broader in scope, 'Planned Economy' or something. I need to think about it some more but this is definitely the right direction to head in for a Mercantilism replacement.

    Yeah, Emancipation is a very nebulous term. I was going for something along the lines of your second definition but better to redesign/rename it to prevent confusion.

    I'm not convinced by the trade route bonus, I feel it makes this civic a bit too focused on commerce/gold. I wonder if it shouldn't give happiness and/or health in some form, would suit the welfare theme well and contrast directly with Industrialism.

    We could also swap gold-rushing and gold/specialist between the two civics if that helped with balance. So, something like: Industrialism gives a lot of production/gold but at a price, Welfare keeps your citizens in good shape but with relatively less productivity.

    Namewise, I think 'Welfare State' is possibly a little too 'political'. Maybe 'Social Welfare, 'Socialism' or even just 'Welfare'. Or alternatively we could go for something a little broader, 'Contract Labour', 'Unionized Labour', etc. Such terms vary in connotation from country to country these days so let me know your preferences.

    I think I can code that but the AI won't understand it.
     
  9. Azoth

    Azoth Inscrutable

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    Well, +50% Wonder production has a much richer flavour, but I suppose it could be recast as +25% building production. Just as Organized Religion and Theocracy provide extra building and unit production in cities with your state religion, so State Property and Standing Army could provide extra building and unit production in all cities. I would be tempted to lower its upkeep costs to Medium, though.

    I agree that State Property is too restrictive a phrase; but Planned Economy is too vague. (Who does the planning? What would an unplanned economy look like?) How about State Enterprise? Not nearly as radical as State Property, it highlights the role of state corporations that manage critical national industries: energy, telecommunications, natural resources, and so forth.

    A health and happiness bonus might seem a natural fit for Welfare State; but as I've said before, extra health and happiness is almost meaningless for a sprawling late game empire with abundant resources and good infrastructure. Add to that happiness from Free Religion and health from Environmentalism, and it's hard to see why players would need any more. Actually, I think a trade route bonus works much better for Welfare State. It's a commerce bonus, not a gold bonus, so it can be freely converted into whatever a player might need - science, gold, culture, or espionage - using the various sliders. It can even be converted into production with the rush mechanic. The post-industrial societies of North America, Europe, Australasia, and East Asia are the wealthiest in the world in per capita terms; so even when seen primarily as a commerce bonus, it makes sense. Whereas Industrialism has a narrow gold and production focus at the expense of health, Welfare State boosts achievement in all areas.

    (As an aside, I do think the commerce bonus is too strong for either Professionalism or Free Markets. That, together with the new State Property civic, led me to suggest +25% culture for Confederation and Professionalism. If you're not wild about those changes, that's fine. :))

    Hmm. In North America, "welfare state" is a technical term used by political scientists to refer to societies with a social safety net, such as America after the New Deal. "Socialism" is the highly charged buzz word that conservative politicians are forever railing against. I say "Social Welfare" combines the best of both worlds.

    If you can code it, I think you should go for it. It's a small enough bonus that the AI doesn't need to understand it. The AIs that love to spread multiple religions generally prefer Free Religion anyway, so they'll pick up that bonus automatically.
     
  10. Howard Mahler

    Howard Mahler Since Civ 1

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    Traditional: Do you mean enemy units killed in city cultural borders.
    How much culture do you get per unit killed?
    Does it depend on which unit?

    As I have said before, +5 happiness in the capital will distort many early games a lot! +1 initial and +1 per era was better.

    When playing, I will just ignore the name of the Traditional trait, as it does not fit well for me with the bonuses. Not a big deal.

    The Protective Trait is too way weak overall, even with immunity to pillaging. (Regardless of ones opinion of the latter.)

    P.S. I will not repeat my previous comments.

     
  11. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Unfortunately the standard array of civic options doesn't actually include a straight +25% building production. It's possible to do a straight +25% production, but that's even less flavour. As I said, civics are extremely limited in what can be done compared to traits (because the AI won't be aware of additional changes), even obvious options like this are missing. It sucks.

    The XML options for civics are listed here if you want to look them up.

    Yeah, something in between State Property and Planned Economy is ideal. State Enterprise sounds too much like the State participating in a free market, this civic needs to be about the state controlling and directing economic activity but still allowing private property.

    Hmm. I understand what you're saying about happiness and health. Trade route bonus still feels wrong to me though, not because it doesn't fit but but because it feels like it's supposed to be elsewhere. Commerce works, trade routes don't. I wonder if something more along the lines of how Democracy works might be better; perhaps steal its +1 production or +1 commerce for Villages/Towns and give Democracy something else instead.

    I think that's also my preferred option at the moment.

    Yeah I'll give it a go in 0.9.5.

    Nope, enemy or friendly units. The culture you get is equal to the experience the unit has. So if one of your well promoted Swordsman is killed in an invasion you'll get much more culture than you would for a Musketman just built.

    I'm going to see how it goes and if it does prove problematic I can scale it by era or culture level or similar.

    Actually I was wondering whether I should restore either the free Drill or City Garrison promotion alongside Medic and then forgot about it. With the pillaging problem solved it probably wouldn't hurt.
     
  12. Azoth

    Azoth Inscrutable

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    The best bonus I could come up with in place of +2 culture/Courthouse is +1 health/Courthouse. In this case, I'm using the same interpretation of health as regards the Holy Office. Codification helps eliminate the most egregious violations of natural law: extrajudicial killings, the slaughter of captured prisoners, and the like. +1 health/Courthouse also leads naturally to +1 happy/Courthouse at Jurisdiction. I can't say I'm fully satisfied with this idea but it's the best I have at the moment.

    Thanks for the link; yeah, those options are very limited. I suppose a straight +25% production bonus isn't the worst thing in the world. (State Property offers +10% production in BtS.)
    I'm more interested in the possibility of +X% food or production yield on trade routes. Do you know how that works?

    Suppose I have one foreign trade route:
    1 base commerce
    +25% for population
    +100% for overseas trade
    +150% for sustained peace
    1 + 275% = 3.75 = 3 commerce

    How much would I make with an extra +50% production from trade routes? 0.5 hammers? 1.5 hammers?

    How about Central Planning?

    Well, as you say, the standard array of civics options is limited. +50% trade route commerce is a simple but powerful bonus that should probably be given to one of the late game civics. Democracy, Equal Rights, and Social Welfare are the only real possibilities. So what do we have to play with? +1 commerce on Villages and Towns. +1 hammer on Villages and Towns. +50% GPP. +25% War Wariness. +1 specialist/city. Civic Anger. +50% trade route commerce. Can rush production with gold. Without touching Equal Rights, the best combination seems to be:

    Democracy: +50% trade route commerce, +1 hammer on Villages and Towns
    Social Welfare: +1 commerce on Villages and Towns, +50% GPP, +25% War Wariness, Can rush production with gold.

    (If you're willing to transfer the +1 specialist/city at Equal Rights elsewhere, you have even more options.) I will say that, at minimum, +25% War Wariness is a better fit for Social Welfare than Democracy. Democracies, from ancient Athens to 19th century Europe, have not been shy about waging war. In fact, war hysteria, populist rhetoric, and self-righteous nationalism probably flourish best under democracy. A genuine anti-war lobby, willing to question the morality and benefits of warfare, only emerged relatively recently alongside labour unions and social welfare.

    I'm not sure it's necessary, but I would prefer Drill I over City Garrison I. Drill I is not normally available to Melee units; will that cause problems? If so, you could swap Melee for Naval or Siege units.
     
  13. Azoth

    Azoth Inscrutable

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    Whoops, I almost forgot: the Military civics, second draft:

    Militia, Low Upkeep
    none

    Clan Warfare, Low Upkeep
    +100% pillage gold
    no War Wariness
    military units produced with food

    Conscription, Low Upkeep
    can draft X units per turn
    +100% XP in cultural borders

    Vassalage, Medium Upkeep
    extra unit upkeep
    +100% city capture gold
    +25% espionage

    Warrior Code, Medium Upkeep
    +2 XP/unit
    +2 happy/Barracks
    +25% culture

    Standing Army, High Upkeep
    +25% unit production
    +100% Great General points
    -50% upgrade costs

    For once, I won't provide comments and bias your judgement. I will say that I feel this is the most balanced set of civic bonuses I have proposed for this column.
     
  14. Simon_Jester

    Simon_Jester Prince

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    Those nations had well-organized armies, but recruited them in the same fashion as the nations around them, mostly. They also didn't have many of the hallmarks of a modern professional military- such as a general staff and a military-industrial complex.

    Agreed, I like this.

    Agreed. Also, there should be something distinctly 'medieval' or at least pre-industrial in there.

    But resurrecting State Property works too; I'd like to see that as something distinct from the Redistribution civic which reflects ancient 'king controls much of the economy' models.
     
  15. Keinpferd

    Keinpferd King

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    Really? As a player, I expect a minimum of semantic relation between a Civic's name and its content. Imagine yourself as a player all new to Xyth's mod, having unlocked the Civic Conscription for the first time. "What was that again? Can draft units per turn, right. Got it." When the new player gets to Warrior Code, there's no such immediate comprehensiveness. "Warrior knows code, 25 % more culture, aha. Warriors are being happy with each other in their barracks. And with knowing the code will act smarter in battle than they actually are, maybe. But why is this Civic called Warrior Code and not Kim Kardashian?" Very arbitrary! I know, it's a result from reshuffling and recombining, but not only from a biased point of view but also a new player's point of view it would be nice to have Civics that are as much self-explanatory and sense-making as possible.
     
  16. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    That'll do until something better comes up. The Legal civic changes were pretty straightforward so I've included them in 0.9.4.

    You'd get 2 in that example. The percentage defines a ratio, so at 50% you get 1 food/production for every 2 commerce generated on that trade route. At 34% you get 1 for every 3, 25% you get 1 for every 4, 20% you get 1 for every 5 and so on.

    Note that this is calculated on individual trade routes only, so say it was set at 25% and you had 8 trade routes generating 3 commerce each, you'd get nothing. However if all of those trade routes started generating 4 commerce each your city would get a boost of 8 food/production.

    I avoided using this function because it's a pain to balance (especially on Archipelagos) and just not at all intuitive to the player.

    Hmm, that's definitely closer to the mark. Shall think about it.

    My preference would be:

    Democracy: +50% trade route commerce, +50% GPP
    Social Welfare: +1 production and commerce from Towns, can rush production with gold

    If Democracy is too strong it could be tempered by lowering one of the bonuses to 25%. If Social Welfare is too strong it could be tempered by the war weariness penalty. If either is too weak we can up the numbers a bit.

    Not unwilling but I think it fits Equal Rights better than anywhere else.

    I agree, but I also don't mind removing that penalty altogether if it works better for balance without it.

    I've experimented with that bonus before and it was disastrous. It was grossly overpowered in certain situations and not able to be balanced without a stupid number of penalties. It's just not worth it.

    This is good.

    Espionage is a good addition here. I'd prefer to keep the capture gold bonus with Clan Warfare though, I think that trait needs it. It would also be a pain to recode as the code for this and for the Aggressive trait are integrated. I forget now, but I'm pretty sure I upped the number of free units for Vassalage compared to the one in BTS so I think it will be fine without anything extra. If not, can always add more free unit upkeep.

    This is good.

    This is good. I'll include these changes in 0.9.4.

    Yeah, as Azoth suggested these 'exceptions' can be covered via the Tactical trait, allowing the civic to become Standing Army and available later.

    Yep, I want this civic to be suitable for the medieval/renaissance eras.

    Warrior Code makes perfect sense to me. It's the HR equivalent of chivalry/bushido/etc, where a warrior caste or a civilization's armed forces develop an ethic or code that becomes a part of the culture of that civilization. Thus the culture bonus. Such warriors are respected by the populace, they help maintain law and order. Thus the barracks bonus. Finally, such a code generally encourages perfection and skill at the art of war. Thus the XP bonus.

    Warrior Code doesn't have a pedia entry yet which doesn't help, but it will in time.
     
  17. Howard Mahler

    Howard Mahler Since Civ 1

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2003
    Messages:
    619
    Opponent's war weariness +10%.

    Does this stack?

    If I have built a News Press in each of two of my cities, is that +20%?

    If I have built a News Press in each of ten of my cities, is that +100% war weariness?
     
  18. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2004
    Messages:
    4,054
    Location:
    Aotearoa
    Yes, they stack.
     
  19. Azoth

    Azoth Inscrutable

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    309
    Location:
    Canada
    I agree. (That's one convoluted function!)
    So are we stuck with +25% production? None of the other XML options really seems to fit.

    Looks good.

    I don't think the War Wariness penalty is necessary for balance. You can retain it for flavour or remove it altogether.

    Are you sure about that? Drafting is much more efficient than building units with food.
    Suppose you want to build a Maceman. (That's 80 hammers at Normal Speed.)

    Drafting a Maceman will take one population point. The unit will be built immediately. It will cost roughly 30 food (the amount needed to fill the food bar), or 15 food with a Smokehouse and Granary. The city's normal production queue will not be affected. A -2 happiness penalty will apply (that's -3, less the crowding penalty from the lost population point) so drafting should be restricted to cities with a +2 happiness margin or greater.
    Building a Maceman with food will take some combination of 80 food and hammers. It will take several turns to complete and the city will not grow in the meantime. Any existing items on the production queue will be delayed and any hammers invested may decay.

    This comparison becomes more lopsided over time. A Riflemen still costs one population point (15-30 food) but takes 140 food-hammers to build. So I'm not worried that building units with food will be overpowered. It will give players who have reached their health and happiness caps or who started in a food-rich but hammer-poor environment (a flood plains valley, say) the opportunity to make use of their excess food. That way, Clan Warfare can be something other than a civic of last resort. That said, I am worried that the AI will not grasp the full implications of this change, such that any cities it devotes exclusively to military production will not grow. At the very least, I feel this bonus is worth a second look.

    If you decide not to add "military units produced with food" to Clan Warfare, then I agree you should restore "+100% city capture gold." I'm not sure if Vassalage will need anything in return. What is the current ratio of free units to empire population? Instead of adding more free unit upkeep, what do you think of unlimited Spies? (I maintain that the BtS espionage system is poorly designed; but so long as we have it, we may as well make use of it.)

    Xyth has already addressed your concerns. For my part, I'll note that Warrior Code was the one civic I left unchanged in that list. (My changes are, as always, outlined in bold.) There was no shuffling of bonuses at all in that case. So, in the future, if you take issue with the "semantic relations" between a civic and its bonuses, I ask that you explain your point thoroughly and suggest alternatives.
     
  20. Keinpferd

    Keinpferd King

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2009
    Messages:
    611
    Location:
    Berlin
    There are other areas in life to drive schoolishness out of people's minds, dear.
     

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