nzk13
Some Jew-boy on Noble.
Invading russia. While at war with the U.S. Never stood a chance. But, as already pointed out by someone else on this thread, in "Hitlerlogic" it makes sense, since the whole thing was to kill the jews anyways.
Hitler's Worst Mistake
- Thread starter Wolf Rider
- Start date
nzk13
Some Jew-boy on Noble.
I know that, but still, even russia on its own would be too strong. And it was expected that the U.S. would eventually join the war, I'm sure he knew that.
IdiotsOpposite
Boom, headshot.
It was also suspected that Hitler and Stalin would evantually go to war. Fascist and Communists can't be allies for long...
Really, Hitler almost won in Russia. But he didn't.
Ancient Grudge
Its all in this life
Yes because the Sixth Army would of been able to break out of the Kassel with virtually no armour (with very little fuel), few heavy weapons, perilously low on ammunition and half emaciated soldiers struggling through snow drifts. Not to mention the six Soviet Armies that surrounded Stalingrad.
I agree, 30 km is a lot more than it sounds like when you are dealing with hundreds of thousands of men in crap weather.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
They weren't allies ever, from what I recall.
Really, he didn't almost win in Russia. There was nothing he could conceivably have done, short of completely re-planning the whole operation on the fly, that would have saved it. Maybe if AGC had suddenly turned north after taking Minsk, then Leningrad might have fallen and present new challenges, but that would mean exposing a whole army group's flank to, what, ten armies stationed near Moscow, with more on the way, and AGS all by its lonesome in the Donbas?
IdiotsOpposite
Boom, headshot.
They signed a non-aggression pact in 1939. Close enough to alliance to me...
Stalin: "Hey, you tyrant over the working class! I won't attack you if you don't attack me!"
Hitler: "Agreed, you Jewish destroyer of the people!"
Dragonlord
Fantasy Warlord
So is Stalingrad
Actually, the Invasion of Yugoslavia didn't delay Barbarossa at all.
Source? Various sources I've read say that first plannings for Barbarossa were for an attack in May, about 4 weeks before the actual kickoff, and that one of the main reasons for the delay was the Balkans campaign - not the only one, admittedly.
Paulus repeatedly asked for permission to break out of the Kessel, which was denied by Hitler, so Paulus must have at least seen a chance to do so. To be sure, this was somewhat earlier, so you may be right that, at the time of Hoth's closest approach, it was already too late for a breakout. Bad phrasing on my part.
Huh? They collaborated in attacking and occupying Poland - that certainly makes them Allies for at least that time period.
Edit: They even posed for fotos of German and Russian troops meeting at the agreed-on border - just exactly as Americans and Russian troops met 6 later in Germany.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
And the British and French did in 1938. Does that makes them allies of Hitler as well?
I'm not amused.
Poland collaborated in occpying Czechoslovakia, does that make them allies of Hitler?
Troops meeting friendly does not make them allied.
Alright kiddies, let's review.
When countries are allied, it means they share in mutual defense and mutual, if temporary, global political ambitions. Italy and Germany were allied in World War II. Britain and France were allied in World War II. Finland and Germany were allied in World War II. Their armies fought together, their countries fought together against mutual enemies, they protected one another. The Soviet Union and Germany were not allied in World War II, they were signers of a non-aggression pact, just like Britain and France had done not a year before with Germany. The USSR and Germany never fought to defend one another, their geopolitical aims were hugely different (an understatement!), and they never fought together.
As I've explained on this forum many times before, yet some people just don't seem to want to get, the Soviet "invasion" of Poland was not done in cooperation with the Nazis, it was done to stop the Nazis from going back on their agreement not to occupy all of Poland.
Just because the two nations appear friendly in some hand-drawn comic of nation-shaped people doesn't mean they were allied. Learn to use terms correctly, people.
Dragonlord
Fantasy Warlord
What we don't get is why you persist in perpetuating that propaganda lie.
Hitler also said: "Since 5.45 we are shooting back" - trying to fix the blame for the war on the Poles. Should I now perpetuate that lie? Of course not, you'd call me a revisionist crazy .. and you'd be right.
Fact is that Hitler and Stalin had agreed to divide Poland among themselves in the secret protocol to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. This protocol was not public at the time of the Polish campaign, so Stalin could get away with his bare-faced lie of invading Poland to 'protect' the Poles against Hitler.
It beats me, however, how you can still believe and perpetuate that propaganda while knowing of the M-R-Pact. The Soviets did exactly as agreed in the secret protocol, occupying the exact territory agreed on. And yes, I know the word 'occupation' isn't used in the protocol, we needn't quibble again about diplomatic euphemisms.
I submit that, when two countries collaborate to make war on and occupy another country, having even agreed on the exact partitioning beforehand, then they are darned well allied while doing so.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
And whom is this "we" that you presume to speak for?
Because its a proven invention, just like the American excuse for entering Mexico. My claim, however, has that wonderful thing we call "evidence."
Just keep repeating it, and soon enough it becomes fact. That doesn't change that that's not how things went down.
Actually, its any inclination of them operating together at all during the Polish war. They didn't shoot at each other, so what. As I have demonstrated previously, the Soviet invasion was in response to the collapse of the Polish state, not because of some pre-agreed upon joint invasion. There is absolutely nothing that indicates that it was a premeditated invasion unless you already go into reading the M-R Pact "knowing" that that's what it says. As I have also demonstrated, the Soviet Union had absolutely zero interest in destroying the Polish state at that time, since the last thing it wanted was a direct border with Germany. It needed Poland to survive intact, which was the point of the Pact in the first place. They did not anticipate the insanely irresponsible actions of the Polish government, which is why they entered Poland at all.
I feel like I've said that before. Oh, wait.
And your submission is denied.
frekk
Scourge of St. Lawrence
Not really ... unless you take the position that Poland and Germany had been allies not long before, when Poland joined the German delegation at Munich in presenting an ultimatum for the dissolution of Czechoslovakia and the carving up of its territories between the conspirators (Poland got a tiny bit .. Zaolzie?) and participating in the (admittedly bloodless) military operations which attended the dismemberment.
Heraclius49
Emperor
Racism sort of was involved in the Prussian Annexation of Silesia. There was a descent number of ethnic Germans that lived there and so the Prussians felt the land to be naturally theirs.
Although this is not entirely related to the topic, what where the reasons why the Allies (on the Pacific, African, and European fronts) won WWII.
IdiotsOpposite
Boom, headshot.
Very well, I shall take that position.
Britain and France were allied with Germany in 1938. They were at war with Germany in 1939.
Poland was allied with Germany in 1938. They were at war with Germany in 1939.
The Soviet Union was allied with Germany in 1939 (through an agreed-upon pact kept well hidden that divided up Poland among them). They were at war with Germany in 1941.
Terxpahseyton
Nobody
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2006
- Messages
- 10,759
I could agree that Germany and the SU were no allies in an conventional manner, though in some manner they certainly were for that time. But this question has really no bearing on the fact that they agreed to invade Poland together and to share it.
Now really, do you seriously believe Stalin wanted to "save" Poland from the Nazis?
REALLY???
one more round
If I hadn't read so many smarter posts form you I would rank you now at the very bottom of intellect on this board. But to complicate matters I have, so I would like to now what "evidence" exactly refutes the Molotow-Ribbentrop Pact? I am not aware of any.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
Now really, do you seriously believe Stalin wanted to "save" Poland from the Nazis?
REALLY???
one more round
Now that I've got you in hysterics, maybe you can actually read what I wrote. I didn't say he wanted to save Poland from the Nazis, I said he wanted to preserve the existence of the Polish state, because it acted as a buffer between the USSR and Germany. When the Polish government removed this possibility by fleeing the country instead of negotiating with the Germans, they [the Soviets] had no choice but to occupy Poland up to the line where Germany was supposed to stop, since there was no longer a reason for them to stop, there being no one to negotiate with to end the war, and no government to exercise control over the territory. In short, Poland had no government, and thus no longer existed as a legal political entity.
No one is talking about refuting the Pact. I'm simply pointing out what it says and does not say. People are taking that document and adding all sorts of hidden meanings to things which amount to nothing more than suspicion and circumstantial evidence. They have no proof that the Pact was a secret agreement to jointly invade Poland, as that is not what it talks about. The Pact says that if either party goes to war with Poland at any point, they will only advance to a certain, predetermined line, which would serve to properly "punish" the Poles, but preserve the Polish buffer state, which both parties wanted. It says nothing about joint invasion, it says nothing about joint anything.
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