Hitler's Worst Mistake

[say1988]

Not to mention the basic idea of Lebensraum doesn't require racism on the Nazi scale.

 

[Quackers]

He put unneccessary emphasis on capturing Stalingrad because of a personal duel with Stalin. If he ignored the city and went for the jugular at Moscow he could of well captured Stalin and the whole Bolshevik leadership! iirc Panzers got very near Moscow, 20 miles or so!
Also not releaving the Kessel relying on Goering to supply the trapped troops even though it was impossible for the Luftwaffe to manage leading to the destruction of the (6th army?).
Not listening to generals advice.
Declaring war on the USA.

 

[bombshoo]

Not to mention the basic idea of Lebensraum doesn't require racism on the Nazi scale.

It certainly doesn't require a holocaust scale genocide, but the idea that "We deserve that land more than them" is certainly racist and doesn't leave much room for what will end up happening to the displaced people.

I agree that there is no way of knowing if revengism in Germany was so high that there would be another war without the Nazis' racist ideologies, but I do know that their economy was certainly starting to boom and had the average quality of life been as good as it was but with no one screaming about the evils of the Jews, Jehovah Witnesses and Slavs, I don't think it's beyond comprehension that it could have been avoided.

 

[say1988]

It certainly doesn't require a holocaust scale genocide, but the idea that "We deserve that land more than them" is certainly racist and doesn't leave much room for what will end up happening to the displaced people.

No more racist than segregation in the US or general racism present throughout the world at the time. It also could be viewed as using the "We we strong enough to take it so we can have it" with no ethnic basis whatsoever.

 

[bombshoo]

No more racist than segregation in the US or general racism present throughout the world at the time. It also could be viewed as using the "We we strong enough to take it so we can have it" with no ethnic basis whatsoever.

Except it wasn't just a case of domestic racism, it was the German government pushing their racism outward that was making it inherently a more destructive type. Also there had to have been some ethnic basis to it, as they did not have any similar plans to do the same thing with Britain or Spain or anything (at least not to the same scale or publicly discussed). It was always based on settling lands in Africa and to the East, all the way from Ratzel to Hitler.

It also must be remembered the Nazis did plan to use some of the Slavs living there as slave labor on German plantations they planned to set up. So a better comparison for their plans than postbellum U.S. segregation might be the Spanish colonization of the Americas or something. The idea "We are strong enough to take it so we can have it" also implies the other side is weaker, again making racist to an extent.

To bring in another example of why it was inherently destructive racism, look at the Spanish colonization of the Americas again. The Spanish mainly wanted gold. They were not there to kill a bunch of natives simply because they were inferior, yet there was no getting to that gold with a bunch of Aztecs and Incas in the way. When you are pushing one group out in favor of another, it is going to become racist. Like the Spanish colonization of Americas, Lebensraum was undoable without racism and without lebensraum the most WWII in Europe would amount to would be a Franco-German war over the Alsace region again.

I can agree that Lebensraum may not have been specifically racially motivated in its early days (as in the need to wipe out competing races), but it is almost forced to end up turning into a particularly destructive type of racism because it is based on the belief that Germans come first, and since everywhere on Earth worth settling is basically occupied, you were going to have to either displace, kill or enslave the original inhabitants.

edit: Sorry for the kind of stream of consciousness and disorganized writing style. I'm pretty tired.

 

[say1988]

The idea "We are strong enough to take it so we can have it" also implies the other side is weaker, again making racist no matter what.

No it doesn't. It refers simply to the capability of the government and military to defend their land, and if they fail they lose it, no matter the race involved. Were the Prussians exhibiting racism when they annexed various lands after the Austro-Prussian war?

Except it wasn't just a case of domestic racism, it was the German government pushing their racism outward that was making it inherently a more destructive type. Also there had to have been some ethnic basis to it, as they did not have any similar plans to do the same thing with Britain or Spain or anything (at least not to the same scale or publicly discussed). It was always based on settling lands in Africa and to the East.

The Ukraine provided ideal land for building their society such as being a large grain producing region to support the new German colonies. And Polish territories were formerly German controlled.
You still have the anti-communist views, which while reinforced by racism with respect to the Soviet Union were very real even without any other considerations.

 

[ParkCungHee]

I'd say not listening to his Dad.

 

[sydhe]

I disagree.

In my opinion, his two worst mistakes were starting a world war AND DoWing on the Soviet Union. He had to know that they had the Power of General Winter!!! (RFC Reference )

But no, seriously, those were his two worst mistakes. And that's not looking at him as a murderer, but just as a leader. He quite simply was a bad strategist. He was a great orator in charge of an extremely powerful nation, and still LOST.

I disagree. He actually had a reasonable chance of defeating the Soviet Union. (He had to capture Moscow and Leningrad instead of getting distracted by Stalingrad.) He had no chance at all at defeating the United States, since he couldn't reach us in the first place. The US was already at war with Japan, and if Hitler hadn't declared war on the US, we wouldn't have rushed into a two-front war.

 

[BananaLee]

Now here's the silly question. What would capturing Moscow have done?

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

Now here's the silly question. What would capturing Moscow have done?

It would have brought into Hitler's hands the leaders of the Soviet Union, who apparently never left Moscow even when Panzers were within 20 miles of the place.

 

[Ancient Grudge]

Now here's the silly question. What would capturing Moscow have done?

Because it's one of the triggers for 'The Bitter Peace' of course....

 

[Gustave5436]

Now here's the silly question. What would capturing Moscow have done?

Moscow was a major railway hub; without it, units to the west (in Novgorod, St. Petersburg, etc.) would have been cut off from the east. It also could have had political ramifications for the Russian leadership, but one needn't engage in speculation to see that its capture would have, at the very least, been a major strategic benefit for the Germans.

 

[say1988]

He had no chance at all at defeating the United States, since he couldn't reach us in the first place. The US was already at war with Japan, and if Hitler hadn't declared war on the US, we wouldn't have rushed into a two-front war.

That is far from certain. The US was neutral in word only. Even in 1939, when Congress enacted a law (cash and carry) essentially legalizing arms trade with the Allies only (Germany and Italy had no way to transport materiel over the Atlantic).
FDR wanted the Germany first policy before any declaration of war, and as seen the US had the assets to split between the theatres. FDR most likely would have had the clout to bring about war with Germany in defense of their ally in the war against Japan (who was a Japanese ally).
It would have been the better move for Hitler, creating a slim possibility, but I don't believe Germany would have gained much of anything out of it. But they still lack any means of breaking Britain and the USSR is still receiving lend lease and other aid.

 

[Dragonlord]

He put unneccessary emphasis on capturing Stalingrad because of a personal duel with Stalin. If he ignored the city and went for the jugular at Moscow he could of well captured Stalin and the whole Bolshevik leadership! iirc Panzers got very near Moscow, 20 miles or so!
Also not releaving the Kessel relying on Goering to supply the trapped troops even though it was impossible for the Luftwaffe to manage leading to the destruction of the (6th army?).
Not listening to generals advice.
Declaring war on the USA.

Mixing some things up, here... Reconaissance elements did get within sight of Moscow, but that was 1941. The drive on Stalingrad was in the 1942 campaign, after the Russian counteroffensive had driven German troops back far from Moscow.
The drive on Moscow in 1941 was not stalled because of Stalingrad, but because forces were diverted to close the cauldron at Kiev, which destroyed most of the remaining Soviet Western army and netted the Wehrmacht hundreds of thousands of prisoners. Perhaps a mistake, but it would have been hard to miss such an opportunity ... and could they have taken and held Moscow if that Army Group at Kiev had remained intact?

As to the Kessel at Stalingrad - he did attempt to relieve it. Manstein and Hoth came within 30 km IIRC, but couldn't manage the rest. The mistake was in not allowing Paulus to break out to the west to meet Hoth.

Now here's the silly question. What would capturing Moscow have done?

It would have brought into Hitler's hands the leaders of the Soviet Union, who apparently never left Moscow even when Panzers were within 20 miles of the place.

Hardly. The archives and a lot of the bureaucracy had already been evacuated and it wouldn't have taken Stalin and the Politburo long to follow if necessary. They were in no imminent danger of capture - only reconaissance units had gotten so close as you state, and there were still static defences (tank traps and the like) to surmount before taking the city.

Moscow was a major railway hub; without it, units to the west (in Novgorod, St. Petersburg, etc.) would have been cut off from the east. It also could have had political ramifications for the Russian leadership, but one needn't engage in speculation to see that its capture would have, at the very least, been a major strategic benefit for the Germans.

As Gustave said.

Also, precisely because Moscow was the railroad hub, the Soviet winter counteroffensive would have been much more difficult to stage if Moscow had been taken.

To the OP: somewhat whimsically, I submit Hitler's greatest single military mistake was allying with the Italians... . Mussolini pulled Hitler into first North Africa and then the Balkans, diverting resources and delaying Barbarossa, while never being of much help otherwise, except in tying down British naval units in the Med.

All else being equal, who knows how Barbarossa would have turned out if it had started 4 weeks earlier, as planned, and with even more resources which had been squandered in unnecessary campaigns to the south...?

 

[ParkCungHee]

Because it's one of the triggers for 'The Bitter Peace' of course....

So is Stalingrad

Mussolini pulled Hitler into first North Africa and then the Balkans, diverting resources and delaying Barbarossa, while never being of much help otherwise, except in tying down British naval units in the Med.

Actually, the Invasion of Yugoslavia didn't delay Barbarossa at all.

 

[warpus]

He should have went straight for the Caucasian oil fields instead of sending armies north to capture Moscow and St. Petersburg as well.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Now here's the silly question. What would capturing Moscow have done?

It would have been the nightmare that Stalingrad was, but several orders of magnitude stronger.

 

[Yeekim]

Being a racist bastard?

The racism. I think he could have pulled off a successful invasion of the USSR (not conquering it, but causing it to collapse) if he had treated the Ukrainians and other Slavic minorities better. Also, if they weren't so concerned about using "Jewish science" they could have advanced many of their research programs more quickly.

This.

 

[GoodGame]

Invading the Sudatenland and running his country bat insane from the start. What if he had simply displayed his disregard for previous treaties, demo'd his army, but never made extraterritorial threats?

 

[say1988]

His acquisition of the Sudetenland was one of his best moves. He got hugely beneficial land for virtually no cost, invading Bohemia was worse because it cost him any acceptance of his policies by the French and British.