Lexicus
Deity
There weren't any powerful contiguous enemies for us to piss off.
Holocaust denial
- Thread starter Dida
- Start date
There weren't any powerful contiguous enemies for us to piss off.
history is written by the victorious...
Also, genocide is worthy of condemnation, even when the condemnation is hypocritical.
civver_764
Deity
Give the guy a break, public speaking is hard.
Broken_Erika
Play with me.
Sure thing, what kind of Break would he like? Arm? Leg? Kneecap? Jaw?
Canada was to some extent nicer to its natives than the US was to its, and New Zealand was nicer to the Maori than the Australians to the Aborigines. But the logic of settler colonialism applied all the same. The goal of settler colonialism is to take over an area occupied by an inconvenient indigenous population (or, more commonly, a fractious group of indigenous populations - which you can exploit by playing them against each other), and use whatever means necessary to take over all of their territory (minus a few little reservations or Bantustans or whatever). There are "nicer" ways and "meaner" ways to go about it, of course.
No doubt: the Nazis were anti-Semitic above all else. Killing, expelling, or 'Germanizing' the non-Jewish Poles was a less immediate objective than exterminating all the Jewish ones.
Around 3 million Polish Jews and 2.5 million ethnic Polish non-Jews were killed: the former representing at least 90% of the Jewish population of the country, the latter "only" a little over 10% of pre-war ethnic Poles. Killing of non-Jewish Poles was not especially systematized during 1939-45: forced labor, random mass killings in response to actual or rumored partisan activity, killings of Polish intellectuals and political leaders, expulsion to the General Government and constant malnutrition/disease there, and so on and so forth dominated Polish civilian casualties, while the Jews were rounded up and slaughtered wholesale in a rapid and systematic fashion. So you're right that there is a big difference here - they wanted the Jews killed immediately (and did just that), but they wanted to destroy the Polish people in a slower, stepwise fashion.
The main goal of converting Poland into a full-fledged German settler colony, with an influx of German settlers to take control after the mass extermination, expulsion, ghettoization, or "Germanization" of the population (for the lucky 15% or so), was not ultimately accomplished, because Germany lost the war. That doesn't change the fact that the general idea was to destroy the Polish people and replace them with German settlers, as it was for much of the rest of Eastern Europe. But this was mostly a postwar priority and only the first steps were implemented during the war, with the result that the mission was left largely unaccomplished and the vast majority of ethnic Poles did survive.
I'm not convinced that the idea was to destroy the Polish people and replace them with German settlers. I agree that the idea was to invade Poland and give land presently held by Poles to Germans, but that's not the same thing. I certainly don't know of any evidence that people were going to be sent to the death camps for the 'crime' of being born Polish, as they were for the 'crime' of being born Jewish.
EDIT: I see the word 'Germanisation' in your post - I think that's a key one. The Nazis were quite happy with the idea of 'converting' people, particularly French and British people, to make them (almost) the same and of the same value as Germans. The 'offer' did not extend to Jews.
EDIT: I see the word 'Germanisation' in your post - I think that's a key one. The Nazis were quite happy with the idea of 'converting' people, particularly French and British people, to make them (almost) the same and of the same value as Germans. The 'offer' did not extend to Jews.
Lexicus
Deity
That offer didn't really extend to ethnic Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians, or Poles, either. The upshot of Generalplan Ost was just as Bootstoots described - the long-term plan was to kill or enslave the populations of Poland and the European parts of the USSR. There was talk in the upper echelons of the regime of, for example, carrying off all the men above the age of 14 in Ukraine, shooting them, and then bringing in the "SS stallions" to improve the racial hygiene of the population - and that was considered a first step rather than a complete plan.
And that's the key point - the "problem" of Eastern European populations was viewed through a racial lens, not a cultural one.
Some sources say Generalplan Ost implied "removing" one way or another 80% of Poles. Exterminate them or sent to Siberia. Slavs were considered unfit for germanization.
I stand corrected. With that said, it's important - when we're talking about the legacy of the Holocaust - to remember that Generalplan Ost never really got off the ground in the way that it was 'meant' to.
Lexicus
Deity
Yep. I already made the point that the Jews were specially targeted by the Holocaust and that "what about the non-Jewish victims" is certainly not called for in this context, particularly so given that we're talking about the use of chemical weapons in the Holocaust. The people on whom chemical weapons were used were overwhelmingly Jewish.
See "All Lives Matter"
Lexicus
Deity
*Smacks self in head for not thinking of that analogy*
Berzerker
Deity
You're talking about me, so when was this?
How many semites were murdered by the Nazis?
Berzerker
Deity
caketastydelish
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2008
- Messages
- 9,718
I'm not familiar with Berzerker's posting history. Now you all have got me genuinely curious.
Berzerker
Deity
lol, I guess you weren't talking about my defense of Zimmerman then?
what were you talking about?
what were you talking about?
Berzerker believes you can murder someone that objects to you stalking them.
caketastydelish
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2008
- Messages
- 9,718
In that case he's definitely wrong. Yeah, defending Zimmerman is pathetic.
Full stop... there's your answer
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