How bad is it to have wasted worker turns in early game?

[Culture Bomb]

It's frequently suggested that it's best to build a worker first in most situations, but you also see players trying to avoid having wasted worker turns in the early game.

I find it's a fairly common situation to start with say Agriculture and have one or more grain resources in the BFC, but then there is nothing else for a worker to do until you have teched mining > bronze working, meaning there will be 10 or more turns when the worker cannot do anything after improving the food.

In these circumstances, is it still best to build the worker first to get the food improved as quickly as possible, or is it better to leave the food unimproved for longer and build a warrior first to avoid wasted worker turns? Alternatively, would it be better to go for a different tech (eg the wheel) before mining so the worker can be building roads, even if this means delaying starting to chop and mine?

 

[lymond]

Starting with Ag and grains is probably not the best example, as you shouldn't really have wasted worker turns heading to BW, especially if you have a hill or two to mine.

The best examples are some seafood starts, depending on starting techs and land resources. Another is some of the AIs with just terrible starting techs.

There's often not just one solution for seafood starts, but if seafood is my main source of food I will start WB first (or worker or warrior if I have to tech fishing first) then to BW and whip the worker at size 2 or 4 depending on growth).

For some AIs with bad starting techs and resources and such that create an imbalance between arriving techs and the worker, then I might start building something like a warrior first or barracks (if AGG - there are several AGG AIs with bad starting techs like Monty, Rags, Alex). Then just check the timing of techs and worker, starting the worker on the right turn to come out at the right time.

Regardless, it is always good to get that worker as soon as possible. Just teching TW to have something to do is not advisable unless you already have it, ofc. Get those food techs and BW asap.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

It's frequently suggested that it's best to build a worker first in most situations, but you also see players trying to avoid having wasted worker turns in the early game.

I find it's a fairly common situation to start with say Agriculture and have one or more grain resources in the BFC, but then there is nothing else for a worker to do until you have teched mining > bronze working, meaning there will be 10 or more turns when the worker cannot do anything after improving the food.

In these circumstances, is it still best to build the worker first to get the food improved as quickly as possible, or is it better to leave the food unimproved for longer and build a warrior first to avoid wasted worker turns? Alternatively, would it be better to go for a different tech (eg the wheel) before mining so the worker can be building roads, even if this means delaying starting to chop and mine?

It's not impossible to construct a scenario where sneaking another unit/some growth in before the worker could be marginally better than worker first. But my feeling is that this sort of thing doesn't come up often, and you should really only break with conventional wisdom if you can calculate a significant improvement based on the start in front of you.

Normal speed: the worker is normally available at T15, the first farm finished at T20. If you are waiting until T30 to get another worker task queued up... something is really wrong with your tech rate.

But let's try a 5 turn lag - so compare worker at T15, farm at T20, 5 idle turns to warrior T5, worker T20, farm T25. The first city by now is size 2, ahead by 5 farm turns and 2 or 3 unimproved tile turns, and some unclear number of hammers depending on the available tiles - it would be easy for this number to be enough for a warrior, if you don't have anything better to do. The second city is still at 15/22, with 20 extra warrior turns + 5 hammers.

It's not impossible for those extra 20 turns to make up the difference - a single captured worker would be enough. But you need to find an acceptable target, etc.

You have similar problems trying to grow -- the math is about the same (8 turns to grow to size 2, then 12 turns to train the worker), but there's no great way to spend 8-10 hammers in the opening. This makes it a lot harder to make up the time you've lost.

 

[Culture Bomb]

Here is an example of what I was talking about with Agriculture and grains. I settled in place because I could not see anything worth moving towards.

Obvious first tech seems to be AH so I can improve the plains cow as well as the corn, but after that...?

With all the forests, there is nothing that can be mined or farmed till after BW (or I get a second city.)

I could tech masonry after AH to improve the stone or the wheel to start roads towards a second city site, but that would likely still leave turns where the worker has nothing to do until I can chop the trees.

 

[Izuul]

I can't see the save atm but you may be making a faulty assumption that AH should be 2nd tech. If the only AH resource is a plains cow I would seriously consider skipping AH especially if AH results in wasted worker turns.

 

[Culture Bomb]

If I don't get AH, the worker can only improve the dry corn before having nothing to do, Basically, every tile in the BFC is forested except 1 corn, 1 cow and 1 stone.

If I tech AH > Mining > BW, the worker improves the corn, then the cow, then has 13 wasted turns.

If I tech Mining > BW, he improves the corn then has nothing to do for about the same time but I have only one improved tile to work.

 

[lymond]

If I don't get AH, the worker can only improve the dry corn before having nothing to do, Basically, every tile in the BFC is forested except 1 corn, 1 cow and 1 stone.

If I tech AH > Mining > BW, the worker improves the corn, then the cow, then has 13 wasted turns.

If I tech Mining > BW, he improves the corn then has nothing to do for about the same time but I have only one improved tile to work.

I doubt you waste many worker turns at all going straight to BW which is by far the better play anyway over AH for a cow, when you have all that forest. The worker should start chopping asap.

 

[fyermind]

Okay. This is not a solid rule, but I can give an example of time when I knew warrior first was the best play.
This is not to say nothing less than this warrants warrior first, but certainly that it took a lot of combining factors for me to build warriors to pop 2 before building a settler.

Spoiler :

I had a 3 hammer capital, and three forested sugar resources. All resource tiles were forested except for a second ring wheat (worth 3F more and 1 hammer less than forested sugar). I was playing at marathon speed. There were 18 civs on a pangaea map. I was playing at immortal so worker stealing was a very good option.

By spamming warriors (8 turns each) to pop 2 I managed to get a total of 4 warriors before building my worker and had stolen two workers by the time my border popped to develop the wheat.

I ended up spending about 60 worker turns (marathon) building roads towards my enemies and potential city sites before BW came in to chop everything, but because of it was able to get off my vulture rush very early (ended up already having connected copper).

In a game that isn't stacked on a weird map script, it should take really weird sets of circumstances to not go worker first.

If you have that many forests, it's worth remembering that each chop pre math is worth 20 H, while you gain 3f/turn from developing good food resources. By 7 turns, the food is stronger than a chop.

Turns spend building roads are not always well spent turns. Sometimes you can make them back later, but generally I'd rather wait, then chop, than road for more turns than necessary. (note in my example my starting techs were agriculture and the wheel)

 

[lymond]

I just played your save to BW (Mining>BW). Technically you only lose 3 worker turns (move into forest). With this start that is more than OK, because it is so important to get that food resource up in running. You can now make up those 3 turns by going on a chopping frenzy. You will have more workers in settlers in chop chop speed.

Given the map, you will probably want AH at some point soon anyway, but I would go TW after BW then AH>Writing.

If you go AH before BW you will indeed lose a butt-load of worker turns. So BW is most definitely the way to go here since other than the marginal corn tile you have so way of improving anything.

Ofc, another option after TW is Masonry for Mids (good for Mr. Bull), but you can still get that easy after AH>Writing with all that forest.

Bottom line there is absolutely no reason to delay a worker here at start for losing a couple of turns. You always want that city growing asap one way or another.

 

[Culture Bomb]

Yes you are right: only a few worker turns are lost going straight to BW, but my thoughts were that this still results in several more turns working unimproved tiles before I can chop + mine or chop + farm.

Essentially, I was trying to balance out wasted worker turns vs wasted "citizen turns" working unimproved forests.

You are probably right that it is better to get to BW ASAP to start chopping (especially after seeing how close Gilgamesh's capital is to my borders!)

 

[lymond]

Chopping makes up for the unimproved tiles and actually allows you to improve them anyway. Yeah, you want to improve tiles as soon as you can, but in some starts you are gonna have to work unimproved tiles for a bit. No big deal as long as your workers have something productive to do like choppin' broccoli

 

[vranasm]

I looked at the start you posted, settled on the PH 1S, teched BW straight... there is bigger problem on this map and that is the simple fact that DS are terrible rush unit... especially against protective neighbor... I semisuccesfully rushed his capital at cca T61, but was very costly and dragged out war...