How can I change?

[Ankh-f-n-Khonsu]

From my experience the best way to beat a wonder addiction is to ask the question, is this wonder worththe investment?

Yes, that's what did it for me. Also, as I recently noted in a different thread, one of the advantages of a newly-available wonder is that by asking this question every time you consider building it you have the opportunity to keep your strategy in mind, revisiting it regularly to either consciously modify it or at the least firm it up in your mind so you know what you're doing. Once in a great while, you may even find a wonder that does fit in with your master-plan. Generally, though, they're a trick of the AI to cause you to waste hammers.

 

[Mano3]

...sometimes it helps to go down in difficulty a level to make the trial adjustment. note that in this particular case it would make grabbing wonders easier and you MUST resist!

but if i'm gonna do a 100% new type of game for myself i often go a step lower for the first attempt. being able to focus on the tactics with a *little* break from the AI advantages helps me refine said tactics to use on the real games later.

I stepped down to Warlord trying out the Specialist Economy tactic I discovered in the forums. It's a fun and different approach to the game, I just don't like the low production.

 

[carl corey]

Low production? I usually play a mixed economy, but when I lean toward SE I find it easier to have good production. Just build farms/mines and when you want research use specialists, and when you want production use the mines. The money to support the units in that one come from war. City captured -> build farms & mines & use specialists -> continue war. Much more safer from pillaging, you can have viable cities very soon. Of course, by mid-game most of the captured cities will have heaps of matured cottages and I won't destroy them just for the sake of playing a pure SE.

 

[thecivdude]

well, here's my thoughts...
domination victory on prince level, all 18 civilizations, largest map possible (continents).
if you play space race, it'll work in less time, less war. be ready for a long game if domination victory.

i use gandhi, but it can be any leader that starts with mining. gandhi's special unit is the fast worker (one extra movement) and gandhi also starts with mysticism and has no anarchy... wow.

so, you MUST be the master of a religion. i read above where someone said they avoided enemies by taking no religion. well, you also avoid enemies by making sure your religion spreads to as many neighbors as possible. for example, "we care for our brothers and sisters of the faith". although i play using gandhi, like i said, it can be any civilization that begins with mining or mining/mysticism, so i'll try to keep it general.

religion is important for many reasons. it helps research, it helps gold, it helps gain allies and it even helps culture. soooo, this offsets the need for some of the wonders you would otherwise build (and you spend no hammers on a growing religion)... i used to play without it, now that i play with it, there's no going back! it's really essential. and if you get it spreading early on and spreading everywhere, you will truly reap the benefits.

it's true you have to resist building certain things, but i view certain wonders as essential. pyramids might be an advantage, but i have become very accustomed to playing on without it. so, right off the bat, you have to get one of the first religions, buddhism or hinduism, no matter which, but that should be the very first tech you research.

once you begin, build an army. start sending out warriors to explore - but DO NOT tell them to "auto-explore". it may take a little more patience, but guide your warriors yourself within a reasonable distance to your capital, in every direction. the object here is to find your closest neighbor. by the time you have found one close by, you should have five or six warriors, give or take... AND you should have already founded a religion. once you pinpoint a neighbor, send all your warriors to their border while continuing to build a few more. you will want to attack with about 8.

in the meantime, research fishing and hunting. which one first depends whether you're on the water. once you have 8 warriors gathering at your neighbor's doorstep, begin building a worker (you should have a population of about 4). try to coordinate the completion of your worker with the completion of the research for bronze working. bronze working allows your worker to chop down a forest. hammers hammers hammers...

once your worker starts on forests, you could start building a settler. but don't, i avoid that at first... that's the purpose of the warrior army. even before any of your neighbors have a chance to defend themselves adequately, you attack. most of the time this will work... best if they have 2 warriors stationed in that city. if more, you may watch all your warriors die... if you don't mind a reload or two, you can improve your odds and take the city... so, instead of building a settler, you take your first city. and there is no "we yearn to rejoin our motherland" and no civilization will be angry with you because "you declared war on our friend". they simply will not have enough time to be friends with anybody. furthermore, this city you capture will start strong and stay strong with good resources in it's vicinity.

after the worker and bronze working, start researching archery so you have solid defense. while researching archery, begin stonehenge with haste. use the worker chop to finish stonehenge in a few turns. painless to build. after archery, get masonry... and hopefully you'll have stone or marble or both. after stonehenge, build archers, and just maybe one more worker (judgment call here). eventually, i like to group 3 workers together and set to automate. they work quick.

your next objective after stonehenge and archer defense is to research priesthood and get the oracle. you must get this by any means. the more forests a capital has, the better, but you do not want to chop them all down. leave one (health). once you get the oracle, take iron working. you should have either copper or iron on your map at that time. once you see one or both of these, you'll know where to put your next settler.

why stonehenge and the oracle? several reasons. stonehenge helps by placing a monument in every city, captured or not, which helps your border expand quicker, giving you access to nearby resources sooner. the oracle is important for the extra civic (in fact, any time you can claim an extra civic, take it -duh, haha). and iron working will give you one heck of an advantage for a short time.

the other, very important reason is that these two wonders make it possible to acquire your first great prophet very early in the game. they boost great person development and that is crucial, so both wonders have to be in your capital. once you get your prophet, you build the appropriate religious building for your state religion... (The Kashi Wishwanath or The Mahabodhi) and viola! if you have successfully spread your religion, you'll receive a +2 bonus to gold for every city that has your religion. i've played games where i never needed to reduce my research below 100% after doing this until much later in the game.

then it's all about more gold and more research. culture comes along on it's own. take alphabet, then writing, build libraries and monasteries, take literature and build the great library, and in your capitol if you can. the more you can boost the great person rate here, the better. therefore, it's also a good idea to get the parthenon. yes, you can do it.

next is civil service for the bureaucracy civic, then it's on to divine right... you must get divine right and build the spiral minaret. if you have built all your temples and monasteries, etc, you get +1 gold for each religious building in your cities. wow. a must.

now liberalism... you might also want to get Angkor Wat and Oxford University

other good ones to get, but you can do without:
Versailles
Chichen Itza
Hanging Gardens
Notre Dame
(later, you should be far enough ahead to build any wonder you want, satisfying the urge)

while your busy with all this, build your army. i see conquest in stages. you get iron, you build swordsmen and attack. once the effectiveness is gone, stay peaceful for a while. get catapults, build oodles of them and attack again. get the elephant if possible, do it again. try to have conquered two other countries at least by the time you get to canons. and build, and attack again. one note: it's good to attack the most advanced neighbor if possible. it only helps you stay ahead...

it's also a good idea to found as many other religions as you can. number 1 - you keep your neighbors from acquiring and using them (thereby switching away from your religion) and 2 - the spread of other religions founded by you only helps when you build the appropriate religious buildings.

wow, i thought this would be quick.... nope! haha
hope this helps. and i encourage criticism, help, advice, etc if anyone would like to add to this.

 

[Mano3]

Low production? I usually play a mixed economy, but when I lean toward SE I find it easier to have good production. Just build farms/mines and when you want research use specialists, and when you want production use the mines.

I figured out what I was doing wrong and finally won using the SE approach.

 

[carl corey]

Congratulations!

 

[Eggolas]

I'll echo Cabert, the link to The-Hawk's piece did more for my moving from Noble to Monarch than anything else. Before reading his advice, I couldn't beat Noble.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Congratulations winning with Specialist Economy. Somebody already mentioned that it doesn't necessarily mean low production, since you can reassign your pop to different tasks whenever you want. The SE encourages larger population cities and larger cities produce more of everything. (You need extra food to feed the specialists, and more food also helps grow those cities faster.) Looks like you are starting to change.

It's a new game. The game no longer revolves around REx, and warmongering isn't the only way to win (it's easy, but it's not the only way). With the depth and choices available, it has become my favorite civ game by far.

 

[KMadCandy]

I figured out what I was doing wrong and finally won using the SE approach.

yay!

i feel so proud when i win doing something totally different. here i pause to brag about when i *finally* mastered (at a lower level than usual) diplomacy and won a perfect, completely legit with no reloads diplo victory ... all AIs except my opponent (who i'd hand-selected and did all i could to ensure he'd be second in pop) voted for me. the things i learned have helped so much on my usual-level games. the difference is amazing.

so you totally earned a chance to bask in your moment of glory and feel proud! and some confidence that you can learn about and win using other tactics too (of course reserving the option to come back here and ask us [mostly folks way smarter than me] about those methods as well).

 

[LucyDuke]

well, here's my thoughts...

A lot of what you said, I think, is very valuable and useful. A few nit-picks, though, if you don't mind...

The primary thing is that you're very prescriptive. Every game is different and you're a little cookie-cutter in your approach. Sure, there are tactics that are fail-safe, but there are no strategies that are fail-safe.

The other general thing is that you're just as wonder-happy as I am and as Mano3 might be. Stonehenge is pretty weak, IMO, even being an incorrigible builder I usually skip it. Monuments are simply not that powerful, and generally it's irrelevant where exactly you are on the planet. You can survive without any wonders.

and you spend no hammers on a growing religion

This is flat wrong. It might just be me, but if I've got a state religion, I want it in all my cities, ASAP. I can't wait for the natural spread, so I'm wasting hammers on missionaries. And if I've got the holy city, I want my neighbors with me, too, so I'm sending missionaries into their cities at the expense of my hammers and to their benefit when they pick up the state religion. You're right that it's very, very powerful, but it often proves to be a pretty substantial distraction. And it totally sucks when your brothers in faith finally decide to go to free religion.

If you can pull off a religion, great. Generally, though, don't bother if you don't start with Mysticism (or if you've got a great commerce tile to fund the research). I'd suggest you try a few games where you avoid founding a religion, if only so you can learn to thrive without one. If you can get to BW ten turns earlier, isn't it worth it for the axerush?

i view certain wonders as essential

No wonder is essential. The Space Elevator is awesome if you're going for space race, and the Pentagon is unbeatable if you're warmongering. A case can be made for almost all of them, but none are essential.

once you begin, build an army.

Exactly! You always want a strong army. You can have ten warriors for the cost of the Oracle.

you do not want to chop them all down. leave one (health).

IIRC, you need more than one for any health effect. Chop what's adjacent to your city (AI will use it for cover when attacking), and use judgment for the rest.

I won't argue with the rest. Most of it is solid, as long as you keep in mind that you must be flexible.

it's also a good idea to found as many other religions as you can.

Absolutely. As long as it's not too much of a diversion, it's great to keep them to yourself. Don't neglect metal casting to get to divine right, though.

Sorry to tear your post up like that. I think you've got a good thing going. I also think there's always room for expansion. And you did invite it.

 

[Ankh-f-n-Khonsu]

IIRC, you need more than one for any health effect. Chop what's adjacent to your city (AI will use it for cover when attacking), and use judgment for the rest.

2 forests = 1 health, rounded down. If you have an odd number of forest squares, it won't hurt to chop one.

 

[LucyDuke]

2 forests = 1 health, rounded down. If you have an odd number of forest squares, it won't hurt to chop one.

Right. I wasn't sure exactly what the numbers were, but my point was that one forest on its own isn't going to help health any.

 

[thecivdude]

Sorry to tear your post up like that. I think you've got a good thing going. I also think there's always room for expansion. And you did invite it.

oh no! truly i do appreciate the critique! sorry it took so long for me to catch up to your notes, let's see:

ok, it's true you can survive without wonders, but maybe i read the thread wrong, i thought the gist was that they wanted to get away from building each and every wonder. i used to like to play that way too, for fun, until upping the difficulty and things had to get more streamlined. therefore, some became more important than others... to me, that is.

one of the keys to getting SH and the oracle right away, to me, is the great prophet who builds the religious wonder.... wonders boost GPs, and that's the best thing to me, and the earlier and more often, the better.

and that brings me to the second part. i don't spend any hammers on missionaries ever. the massive spread doesn't work every single time, but most often, i'm able to get religion spreading well with my first tech and the religious wonder in place. all that religious spreading just happens on its own, thus, no hammers. that's what i meant.

one of the keys to aiding the spread is connected cities by river or by road. once connected the spread is quick, so there is a bit of variability there.

and, i used to play EXCLUSIVELY without focusing on religion. BW was the first tech researched. i felt i used that method to the fullest extent i could take it and did very well. but with the religion boost, i just won't go back (well, i'll try anything really ). i've exhausted my efforts to win without it.

in my latest game, i had an army that couldn't be matched and liberalism by 1206 AD. riflemen soon after. (and thriving economy) i know some achieve victory prior to that in some games, but i play the largest map, continents, prince level, with all 18 civilizations. i never, never met with more success than i have adopting the religious spread approach. perhaps you should try it more?

and perhaps the close proximity of civilizations helps with a spreading religion. if you have a huge map and only 8 civilizations, well, the religion method might not be so effective just because of the greater distance.

i tend to play the same way until i master it, so yes, it may be a little cookie-cutter as you say... but i am surprised there aren't more on these forums who agree about this method and who work on ways of improving it. i view it as the solution to economic problems and funding a huge army. at one point, long ago, i wouldn't even adopt a state religion at all.... now if find it's better to own it, spread it, and use it fully...

it is however, only one aspect of the game and it doesn't work flawlessly, nor does it guarantee smoothe success every time. heck, the starting point can alter that in the first turn. that's the beauty of civ if you ask me. every game is a new challenge. keeps me coming back again and again.

thanks for the critique! (and the info on forests)