How comes there is no more a civ which is toward science ?

[Thormodr]

Yes, the Persians were renowned astronomers as well, and incidentally Persia is one of those civs that you can take in pretty much any direction you want because they excelled at everything at some point in their long existence--culture, government, religion, science. But you don't have to look to Persia to acknowledge the important scientific advancements made by the Abbasid Caliphate.

Here is a snippet of an excellent article on the subject:

Science in the Islamic world

Rational thought in the Muslim world developed during the reign of liberal Muslim rulers of the Abbasid dynasty. However it was after the rise of scholars like Al-Ghazali that all scientific reasoning came to an end in the 13th century. As we remain enamored by our past achievements in the sciences, we forget that there is very little “original” we as Muslims can celebrate and be proud of.

It was during the reign of the early Abbasid caliphs, particularly Mamun-ur-Rashid (around 813 CE) that in his Dar-ul-Hikmah (the house of wisdom) in Baghdad, Muslim scholars would begin translating the classic Greek works, primarily toeing the Aristotelian tradition. In addition, they were heavily relying on Persian and Indian sources. They also penned huge commentaries on works by Greek philosophers. However, the Muslim translators were small in number and were primarily driven by curiosity. More than ninety nine percent Arabic translations of works of Greek philosophers were done by either Christian or Jewish scholars. It is interesting to note that Islamic astronomy, based on Ptolemy’s system was geocentric. Algebra was originally a Greek discipline and ‘Arabic’ numbers were actually Indian.

[N.S Rajaram: Indians invented algebra, calling it bija-ganita. Greeks considered some special cases in number theory like Diophantine Equations, also known to the Indians. The cumbersome letter-based notation (like the later Roman numerals) did not lend itself to problems in algebra. The major Greek contributions were the concept of proof (known also to Indians) and above all the axiomatic method at which they excelled. The Arabs themselves never denied their indebtedness to the Hindus in astronomy, medicine and mathematics. They called their numbers ‘Hindu numerals’. As noted in the Editor’s Introduction, much of this took place in pre-Islamic Iran, especially under Khusro I.]

Most of these works were available to the West during 12th century when the first renaissance was taking place. Although Western scholars did travel to Spain to study Arabic versions of classical Greek thought, they soon found out that better versions of original texts in Greek were also available in the libraries of the ancient Greek city of Byzantium….

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/07/the-myth-of-islamic-science

 

[Zaarin]

I'm a little dubious of a *.org site, especially one calling itself "Jihad Watch." No science is "original": the nature of science is to build on what came before it. Science is a dialogue, not an epic poem. Also, I'm not sure what relevance Arabic astronomy being geocentric has; being "wrong" doesn't make it bad science. Tycho Brahe was one of the most brilliant scientists to ever life, and his refutation of Copernicus may be wrong (and an extreme violation of Occam's Razor) but it was a masterpiece. Indeed, his meticulous observations, which he used to refute Copernicus, were the foundation of Kepler's formulation of Kepler's Laws. So I'm not even sure what point your article is trying to make, even disregarding the biased source. One might as well point out that Indian science was indebted to Chinese and Hellenic science, or that Greek science was indebted to Persian, Babylonian, and Egyptian science.

 

[Ebrim]

Oh yeah, I'm sure an article from "jihadwatch" takes a completely impartial view of science in the Islamic world...

Just for being exposed to that nonsense I'm hoping that Arabia gets a bonus scientific building.

 

[Dark_Jedi06]

I'm okay with their being no "science" civs...it's nice to have some civs with a little flavor for science, but going by Civ V standards having a strictly science civ generally leads to them being overpowered.

 

[Ebrim]

I'm okay with their being no "science" civs...it's nice to have some civs with a little flavor for science, but going by Civ V standards having a strictly science civ generally leads to them being overpowered.

I'm not so worried about that. Science won't be as powerful as it was in V to be sure. We just don't know to what magnitude that is true yet.

 

[Thormodr]

Oh yeah, I'm sure an article from "jihadwatch" takes a completely impartial view of science in the Islamic world...

Just for being exposed to that nonsense I'm hoping that Arabia gets a bonus scientific building.

I knew that would come up. Deal with the facts and please note that the author of the article is Muslim.

 

[Thormodr]

I'm a little dubious of a *.org site, especially one calling itself "Jihad Watch." No science is "original": the nature of science is to build on what came before it. Science is a dialogue, not an epic poem. Also, I'm not sure what relevance Arabic astronomy being geocentric has; being "wrong" doesn't make it bad science. Tycho Brahe was one of the most brilliant scientists to ever life, and his refutation of Copernicus may be wrong (and an extreme violation of Occam's Razor) but it was a masterpiece. Indeed, his meticulous observations, which he used to refute Copernicus, were the foundation of Kepler's formulation of Kepler's Laws. So I'm not even sure what point your article is trying to make, even disregarding the biased source. One might as well point out that Indian science was indebted to Chinese and Hellenic science, or that Greek science was indebted to Persian, Babylonian, and Egyptian science.

The point is that Arabs have not been noted for their scientific achievements down through the ages. Therefore, I would hope that the Arab Civ in Civ VI would reflect that.

 

[Zaarin]

The point is that Arabs have not been noted for their scientific achievements down through the ages. Therefore, I would hope that the Arab Civ in Civ VI would reflect that.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

The flowering of science in the Abbasid Caliphate led directly to the Renaissance of the Twelfth Century and ultimately the Italian and Northern European Renaissances. Yes, Persian, Jewish, Christian, and Indian scholars were involved in that flowering of science, but it happened in Baghdad at the courts of the Abbasid caliphs, especially Harun al-Rashid. The only reason one might object to the science bonus is that Civ6's Arabia is not Abbasid but Ayyubid, but that could easily change in the future if Harun al-Rashid is added as DLC or in an expansion. Spain already took the "aggressive religious expansionist" role that one would expect of Saladin, so I expect we'll see Arabia have science and trade bonuses.

 

[Thormodr]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

The flowering of science in the Abbasid Caliphate led directly to the Renaissance of the Twelfth Century and ultimately the Italian and Northern European Renaissances. Yes, Persian, Jewish, Christian, and Indian scholars were involved in that flowering of science, but it happened in Baghdad at the courts of the Abbasid caliphs, especially Harun al-Rashid. The only reason one might object to the science bonus is that Civ6's Arabia is not Abbasid but Ayyubid, but that could easily change in the future if Harun al-Rashid is added as DLC or in an expansion. Spain already took the "aggressive religious expansionist" role that one would expect of Saladin, so I expect we'll see Arabia have science and trade bonuses.

Agreeing to disagree is fine.

I do think that Arab contributions to science have been quite limited and virtually non-existent in the last 700-800 years. The historical record bears that out.

I would certainly agree with the Arab Civ having big trade bonuses and a prominent religion flavour.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

The flowering of science in the Abbasid Caliphate led directly to the Renaissance of the Twelfth Century and ultimately the Italian and Northern European Renaissances. Yes, Persian, Jewish, Christian, and Indian scholars were involved in that flowering of science, but it happened in Baghdad at the courts of the Abbasid caliphs, especially Harun al-Rashid. The only reason one might object to the science bonus is that Civ6's Arabia is not Abbasid but Ayyubid, but that could easily change in the future if Harun al-Rashid is added as DLC or in an expansion. Spain already took the "aggressive religious expansionist" role that one would expect of Saladin, so I expect we'll see Arabia have science and trade bonuses.

I'd expect a decent amount of aggressive religious expansion with Saladin.

But I expect some other effects
Madrassa..obvious for science boost (its a Temple replacement to tie in with religion, but they are schools so a science bonus makes sense)

Unique unit...probably not Camel Archers, but its a UU, so obviously military bonus... I can see desert bonus, Possibly religious bonus different than conquistador, unit can be bought with faith cheaply even outside of a Theocracy.

UA...here I'd guess the trade bonus comes in

Saladin U...here I'd expect more religious expansionism/ city attack/defense with religious boosts

 

[Ebrim]

I'd expect a decent amount of aggressive religious expansion with Saladin.

But I expect some other effects
Madrassa..obvious for science boost (its a Temple replacement to tie in with religion, but they are schools so a science bonus makes sense)

Unique unit...probably not Camel Archers, but its a UU, so obviously military bonus... I can see desert bonus, Possibly religious bonus different than conquistador, unit can be bought with faith cheaply even outside of a Theocracy.

UA...here I'd guess the trade bonus comes in

Saladin U...here I'd expect more religious expansionism/ city attack/defense with religious boosts

I see Saladin as more defensive than expansionist. I think you're right about Madrassa.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I see Saladin as more defensive than expansionist. I think you're right about Madrassa.

Well it was reconquest type of expansion, as well as defense.

The problem is a truly defensive unique is pretty lousy.

Rather you get something like an 'active defense' where I want to conquer your cities so I lure your armies into my defensive death trap, and then chip away at your cities.

Essentially I'd expect Saladin to have a combat/tactical bonus with possible religious interactions (as well as other possible interactions)

 

[Thormodr]

I'd expect a decent amount of aggressive religious expansion with Saladin.

But I expect some other effects
Madrassa..obvious for science boost (its a Temple replacement to tie in with religion, but they are schools so a science bonus makes sense)

Unique unit...probably not Camel Archers, but its a UU, so obviously military bonus... I can see desert bonus, Possibly religious bonus different than conquistador, unit can be bought with faith cheaply even outside of a Theocracy.

UA...here I'd guess the trade bonus comes in

Saladin U...here I'd expect more religious expansionism/ city attack/defense with religious boosts

Sorry but Madrasas boosting science does not make sense. They were primarily used to study the Koran and had a largely religious purpose. They were called education centres but it was to educate people about the Koran. If anything, they should give a significant boost to faith.

Everything else looks alright but I am pretty certain that they'll have a different UU, this time.

 

[Guandao]

Perhaps it's for the best a civ doesn't get traits solely devoted to science. With Korea and Babylon, gameplay seemed much easier compared to other civs. Civs with science related buildings were like this as well (China's Paper maker, Siam's Wat, Maya's Pyramid).

 

[Thormodr]

Perhaps it's for the best a civ doesn't get traits solely devoted to science. With Korea and Babylon, gameplay seemed much easier compared to other civs. Civs with science related buildings were like this as well (China's Paper maker, Siam's Wat, Maya's Pyramid).

I agree with you. They were way overpowered.

I guess we'll see whether culture based buildings are overpowered in Civ VI with the splitting of the tech tree but somehow I think there will be more balance this time out.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Perhaps it's for the best a civ doesn't get traits solely devoted to science. With Korea and Babylon, gameplay seemed much easier compared to other civs. Civs with science related buildings were like this as well (China's Paper maker, Siam's Wat, Maya's Pyramid).

1. No civ in Civ6 looks like solely devoted to one thing. I believe science civs will be no exception.

2. Civ5 had imbalance towards tall play, which produced significantly more science (due to penalties from empire size and National COllege, which boosted science in a city with high population). Science focused tall-focused civs were just the continuation of it.

So far I don't see something like this to be the case in Civ6, but of course we'll see once we play.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

This thread made me curious, so I went ahead and looked at all the Unique Infrastructure to see which yields are represented the most.

6 Faith (tlachtli, sphinx, stepwell, stave church, kurgan, mission)

Faith is represented a lot, which isn't really surprising. Almost every civilization in all of history has had its own unique religious structures, so they're an easy source to mine when coming up with ideas for unique buildings or improvements.

5 Gold (great wall, royal navy dockyard, chateau, mbanza, kurgan)

I was not expecting gold to be the second most common yield. The rationale behind some of these seem a bit odd. Why does a gravestone produce money? Probably shouldn't thank too hard about that.

4 Culture (great wall, sphinx, chateau, acropolis)

Culture is also well represented, though not as much as you might think. Notably, every culture-producing Unique Infrastructure except the chateau were wonders in previous Civilization games.

3 Great Person Points (tlachtli, street carnival, royal navy dockyard)

This is sort of cheating, since they all produce different kinds of great people, but I don't want to make this list any longer than it already is.

2 Amenities (tlachtli, street carnival)

2 Tourism (film studio, great wall)

2 Production (hanse, electronics factory)

2 Food (stepwell, mbanza)

2 Housing (stepwell, mbanza)

Most yields are only represented by 2 Unique Infrastructures. So far, anyway.

1 Defence (great wall)

1 Promotions (royal navy dockyard)

1 Science (mission)

Military specific bonuses and science are only represented on one Unique Infrastructure each. Is this because structures dedicated to learning and education tended to be pretty homogenous, even among civilizations with radically different cultures? It gives you something to think about, at least.

 

[stealth_nsk]

This thread made me curious, so I went ahead and looked at all the Unique Infrastructure to see which yields are represented the most.

6 Faith (tlachtli, sphinx, stepwell, stave church, kurgan, mission)

Faith is represented a lot, which isn't really surprising. Almost every civilization in all of history has had its own unique religious structures, so they're an easy source to mine when coming up with ideas for unique buildings or improvements.

5 Gold (great wall, royal navy dockyard, chateau, mbanza, kurgan)

I was not expecting gold to be the second most common yield. The rationale behind some of these seem a bit odd. Why does a gravestone produce money? Probably shouldn't thank too hard about that.

4 Culture (great wall, sphinx, chateau, acropolis)

Culture is also well represented, though not as much as you might think. Notably, every culture-producing Unique Infrastructure except the chateau were wonders in previous Civilization games.

3 Great Person Points (tlachtli, street carnival, royal navy dockyard)

This is sort of cheating, since they all produce different kinds of great people, but I don't want to make this list any longer than it already is.

2 Amenities (tlachtli, street carnival)

2 Tourism (film studio, great wall)

2 Production (hanse, electronics factory)

2 Food (stepwell, mbanza)

2 Housing (stepwell, mbanza)

Most yields are only represented by 2 Unique Infrastructures. So far, anyway.

1 Defence (great wall)

1 Promotions (royal navy dockyard)

1 Science (mission)

Military specific bonuses and science are only represented on one Unique Infrastructure each. Is this because structures dedicated to learning and education tended to be pretty homogenous, even among civilizations with radically different cultures? It gives you something to think about, at least.

1. Electronics Factory produces culture. It has some extra production due to increased effect range, but additional culture is much more.

2. The reason why Faith and Gold sit on top are purely in gameplay. They are universal currencies, which could be used to buy a lot of things.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

1. Electronics Factory produces culture. It has some extra production due to increased effect range, but additional culture is much more.

2. The reason why Faith and Gold sit on top are purely in gameplay. They are universal currencies, which could be used to buy a lot of things.

You're absolutely right about the electronics factory, that one slipped my mind.

And that's a good point about faith and gold. Even culture has two uses, unlocking civics and expanding borders.

The yields that only have one use are food and science. It's probably not a coincidence that those are also the yields with the least representation among Unique Infrastructures.

It's more surprising that there aren't more production focused UIs. Production can also be used to make a lot of things, including some things that other yields can't make, like archeologists and wonders.

 

[Nikae]

Looking at how science focused civilizations played out in Civ5, thank you, but not again. Korea and Babylon were by far the strongest unless you played for domination or played around on lower difficulties.