How Do You Fogbust, Dammit?

[NihilZero]

Since I grew tired of always winning on Emperor, my civving has been fraught with peril and filled with sorrow. My biggest problem on Immortal is just getting a second city. Those barbs are ferocious and attack in their masses. Games where I manage to get my first settler settled in one piece are in the minority.

So I need some detailed, expert advice on the finer points of fogbusting. There is clearly something I'm missing as I assume experienced Immortalists are capable of settling a second city consistently.

A typical game goes something like this:
Capital builds a worker. 12-15 turns. During this time my warrior goes out and scouts a little. His chances of surviving this 12-15 turn phase are probably about 80%, assuming he stays near coast to minimise excessive exposure to danger and travels as much as possible in hills and forests.
Worker is finished. What next? Do I build a barracks, to make my fogbusters a little more durable (although still fodder for those barb archers), or do I start pumping out warriors immediately?

How many fogbusters do I need? Obviously this is map dependant, but I never seem to have enough. Sometimes the fogbusters die to archer attack before they can even reach their designated post. Even if they do get there, the chances are they will be dead in five to ten turns.

Do we keep replacing dead fogbusters? How long does this go on, bearing in mind that I'd really like to build a settler at some point.

To continue my typical game: after the worker is finished I'll build a warrior or maybe a barracks (usually a warrior). Soon my first warrior will be dead, no matter what, and by this stage I might have explored a little and if I'm lucky will know enough about the surrounding terrain to see a spot I'd like to settle. If I'm very lucky indeed I might even discover horses or copper somewhere, and if I can get to that then I might be able to solve my barb troubles for good. Hence the race is on to get that spot before my capital is inevitably razed by the ever increasing numbers of archers.

So I build some warriors and send them out, hoping to erect a picket line of sentries. Usually they die fast. As more enemies appear it becomes more essential to get out there and found a second city, so I abort any hope of fogbusting, build a settler and send him out with an escort. The settler party heads out into the fog and blunders staight into an archer, and is vanquished.

What am I doing wrong? Do I need to keep training warriors indefinitely until I somehow get the fog busted enough to ensure safe passage? Is there even any guarantee that I can build enough warriors to beat the barbs? Also, how do I balance scouting and fogbusting? Is it more essential to fogbust around the capital or to scout further afield for resources, city spots, and rival civs? If I don't scout I will have nowhere to settle and less chance of finding a strategic resource (which means I'm screwed). If I do scout I will lose more warriors and weaken my sentry picket line...

Many questions. Please enlighten me, oh wise ones.

 

[Gumbolt]

A fog buster will cover a 5x5 square area with your warrior being the centre of it. No barbs can appear in that area. So make sure you leave the full 4 square between the warriors.

On immortal the Ai will still only have animals up to the usual 2500bc or so. The tip is to fog bust around your borders. Barbs wont spawn on tiles 1 square outside your cultural borders. Only in the fog.

I would think 4-5 fog busters should be enough. With all the other Ai usually on a map its normally enough. It really does depend on the map you play.

Post a save where you are having issues.

 

[Zexx]

First of all, even more important then fogbusting is scouting. Your initial unit should reveal a decent chunk of the map. Stick to hills, forests, and jungles. Pretty much the only way I lose my initial warrior is to a bear on a hill, or a lion and a jaguar, or two lions, etc.
This ties into fogbusting, also. When you know the good fogbusting spots, it becomes alot more viable. The basic rule is that a Barbarian unit cannot spawn within two squares of one of your units. So knowing this, you can build a network of units that prevent alot of spawning barbarians from happening.
ie -
oxxoxxoxxoxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
oxxoxxoxxoxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
oxxoxxoxxoxx

Assuming a o is a spawnbusting warrior, and the large rectangule of the x's is your landmass: No Barbarians can spawn on the continent. None. Now, the rules for Barbarian cities are a bit different, and I forget those, but I'm sure somebody else can help.

However, oftentimes you can't fogbust perfectly. It happens. Sometimes, you need to rush about 4-6 warriors, and throw them out into the wilderness and hope for the best. If this is the case, forested hills are your best friends. A warrior fully fortified is at +25%, and on a forested hill is +75%. That puts him on favorable odds against an unpromoted archer.

As far as how much fogbusting you can do, that's dependent. Often times, on Standard, and an empty area, you can only throw out so many warriors before Barbarians start to stream in. Just practice. Play some games until 500BC then restart em, or start a new one.

 

[Gumbolt]

Dont forget rexxing quickly is also just as effective fog busting. Barb archer/warriors won't enter your border unless they see a resource to pillage early on. After a while they will though.

 

[Nares]

What am I doing wrong?

Turn off raging barbarians.

A unit outside of cultural boundaries will create a "no-spawn zone" analogous in shape to a city's BFC. BUG mod can be used to create a graphical representation of what tiles are and are not "covered."

Un-escorted settlers are sometimes a necessary risk. Escorting them with a worker is a viable option. The key here is not to waste their two movement points. When in doubt, move only one tile. Blundering into a barbarian on your second move is a loss; blundering into a barbarian on your first move leaves you free to use the barbarian as a escort of sorts (barbarians likewise create "no-spawn zones").

The settler and worker themselves create "no-spawn zones," so rather than stack them, keep them separate but close to each other. Further, use the worker to explore any dangerous tiles first, and even consider using the worker to bait a barbarian who is hanging out near your future city site.

Barbarians (non-raging) won't enter your cultural borders before 2000BC, but more typically won't enter before ~1800-1600BC. I've settled cities on deity wedged between a barbarian warrior and a barbarian archer.

BW-X-Settler-X-BA

 

[TheMeInTeam]

No barracks, it takes too long and is still marginal at that point.

2-5 is usually enough. If it looks like you'd need more than that, it's time to start prioritizing a resource, archery, or gwall.

Even armed with 100% spawn bust knowledge you still need to read the situation properly.

 

[goodolarchie]

The nice thing about pumping out some early fogbusters is that you can use them later for future city garrison/HR happiness. Being able to run 5-6 specialists in your GP city in the BC's is

 

[TWSqueaks]

I had a game of continents today where I early rushed Julius and Ragnar, which resulted in my having about 50% of the world to myself, where the other AIs were trapped on two separate continents at two each. Easily won, but I got so annoyed with barbs I eventually just gave everybody Nationalism so they'd stop showing up.

 

[NihilZero]

Thanks for the replies, everybody.

On immortal the Ai will still only have animals up to the usual 2500bc or so.

Hmmm, I'm sure I've seen barb archers roaming around before 3000BC. Certainly before 2500BC, which seems to be around when they start entering your borders (I'm sure somebody knows the exact times for these things).

However, oftentimes you can't fogbust perfectly. It happens. Sometimes, you need to rush about 4-6 warriors, and throw them out into the wilderness and hope for the best. If this is the case, forested hills are your best friends. A warrior fully fortified is at +25%, and on a forested hill is +75%. That puts him on favorable odds against an unpromoted archer.

Yep, but when I have difficulties it's because either (1) my warriors get killed by barbs in the open before they can get to a good spot, or (2) I get a warrior posted and fortified on a nice spot and they can last a while against single attackers, but sometimes they get attacked by two guys at once, or they are attacked before they can heal from the last attack...

As far as how much fogbusting you can do, that's dependent. Often times, on Standard, and an empty area, you can only throw out so many warriors before Barbarians start to stream in. Just practice. Play some games until 500BC then restart em, or start a new one.

I have been practising. I'm getting better, but some maps are really hard, namely the ones where there is a lot of land and not too much AI activity nearby. Some maps are easy.

Barbarians (non-raging) won't enter your cultural borders before 2000BC

Again, I do believe I've seen them enter before that.

Seems that there is no secret formula that I'm missing out on, or at least nothing that can be easily described. I understand the no-spawn area etc, I'm just puzzled about a lot of the finer points of fogbusting as highlighted by my numerous questions in the OP.

I suppose the thing to do is post a save as Gumbolt suggested. I'm playing a game at the moment, but I'll post a save at some point.

 

[Herrhals]

I had a game of continents today where I early rushed Julius and Ragnar, which resulted in my having about 50% of the world to myself, where the other AIs were trapped on two separate continents at two each. Easily won, but I got so annoyed with barbs I eventually just gave everybody Nationalism so they'd stop showing up.

what happens at nationalism??

 

[Grashopa]

Once you get used to when barbs appear, make sure you get the first warrior back in time and spawn bust the place you want your first city.

If there is jungle or lots of forest, DO NOT go around the coast. You want that first warrior to get XP - W1 helps and once you get W2 and you don't have to worry about barbs anymore.

Warrior first is a valid start depending on techs/BFC.

Get your warriors into position earlier. Once there are archers out, use 2 warriors to move into spawn busting position, otherwise you risk losing your warrior when you move out into the fog.

 

[Izmir Stinger]

The dates for the changes in barbarian behavior can only be estimated. The code uses benchmarks - sort of like milestones in the development of the game. The one that lets barbs enter your borders to pillage improvements is like "When the average number of cities owned by civilizations on this landmass is greater than 2" or something to that effect.

 

[Oggums]

If there is enough land where 4-5 warriors wont completely prevent spawning, you probably need archery (or great wall).

I'm not sure "fogbusting" is the right term to use. You don't need to uncover the fog, you just need to prevent spawning. Your units will prevent spawning 2 tils away, even if it's still in the fog.

 

[beestar]

So knowing this, you can build a network of units that prevent alot of spawning barbarians from happening.
ie -
oxxoxxoxxoxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
oxxoxxoxxoxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
oxxoxxoxxoxx

Assuming a o is a spawnbusting warrior, and the large rectangule of the x's is your landmass: No Barbarians can spawn on the continent. None. Now, the rules for Barbarian cities are a bit different, and I forget those, but I'm sure somebody else can help.

I think that diagram is accidentally a bit denser than necessary - you can have 4 tiles between fogbusting O's in the horizontal direction, as well as the vertical direction:

[B]O[/B]xxxx[B]O[/B]xxxx[B]O[/B]xxxx[B]O[/B]xx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[B]O[/B]xxxx[B]O[/B]xxxx[B]O[/B]xxxx[B]O[/B]xx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[B]O[/B]xxxx[B]O[/B]xxxx[B]O[/B]xxxx[B]O[/B]xx

Also, it's a 5 x 5 square (not quite a BFC has mentioned by another poster previously).

 

[Zexx]

Truth, my mistake.
I tend to build tighter nets for purposes of reinforcement when the fully fortified CI Cover warrior on a forested hill dies to an archer at 2400bc.

 

[jauggy]

Turn off raging barbarians.

A unit outside of cultural boundaries will create a "no-spawn zone" analogous in shape to a city's BFC. BUG mod can be used to create a graphical representation of what tiles are and are not "covered."

I have BUG mod but where is the feature to reveal where the barbs won't spawn?

 

[Zexx]

If I remember correctly, you spawnbust about the same size of a BFC, only on the outer corners as well.
So the dotmapping feature with the mod should show you a nearly perfect spawnbusting net.

 

[iggymnrr]

The easiest way to fogbust is to play vanilla deity.

 

[NihilZero]

The dates for the changes in barbarian behavior can only be estimated. The code uses benchmarks - sort of like milestones in the development of the game. The one that lets barbs enter your borders to pillage improvements is like "When the average number of cities owned by civilizations on this landmass is greater than 2" or something to that effect.

Cool, that's useful info. On Immortal most AIs get their second city circa 3000BC, and if you have spammy rexers like Joao around the cities start exploding all over the map pretty fast. Of course, then there is less space for the barbs to spawn...

I'm not sure "fogbusting" is the right term to use. You don't need to uncover the fog, you just need to prevent spawning. Your units will prevent spawning 2 tils away, even if it's still in the fog.

There seems to be some disagreement about this. Some say barbs can spawn in any fog tile, others that the spawnbust area is always the same regardless of fog...do any of the code readers have the authoritative facts?

The easiest way to fogbust is to play vanilla deity.

Hehe, that's true. But no thanks.

 

[Cusanus]

There seems to be some disagreement about this. Some say barbs can spawn in any fog tile, others that the spawnbust area is always the same regardless of fog...do any of the code readers have the authoritative facts?

There is no disagreement at all.
Fog is irrelevant, barbs can't spawn near units. (2-tile radius, as mentioned in this thread)

It's only the game itself that claims barbs could spawn anywhere in the fog, but that's just a lie.