[GS] How do you use Industrial Zones after the changes?

[acluewithout]

I do think the huge power surge at industrialization is good. The only thing that feels off to me is it seems like they are almost too useful vs other districts in the middle ages (you want to build them because you've already doen the AQs and you're gonna have guilds civic soon...) If the eras were stretched out about 1.5x, then i think i'd push the IZ back to early Ren. Or maybe if the early/mid game was stretched out, apprenticeship wouldn't feel like it basically comes right after ironworking half the time.

The IZ changes are definitely growing on me. I really like they way they’ve sort of rebalanced a whole bunch of Civs and made them way more interesting, particularly Japan, Netherlands, Rome and Khmer. I think the way into the changes is really the Craftsmanship Card - it gives you the multiple to adjacency that makes IZ actually worth the effort (more so once you get Coal plants), and is sort of another way to tie it into existing mechanics like governments and culture.

Using all these Green Districts also gets you into higher pop cities, that then make Specialists a bit more desirable particularly with the changes to Tier 3 buildings.

That said, I agree pacing still feels off generally, but particularly around Districts. I think the bigger issue though is how early Campuses arrive.

If you play really efficiently, then a lot of these mechanics just become irrelevant. So fast. But I also think pacing comes down to play style a little. I think the game is designed and paced around a sort of “sub-optimal” play style, where you still play to win but you maybe don’t necessarily chop relentlessly or spam campuses, and are maybe more willing to build some stuff you don’t strictly need. So, yeah, pacing is tricky.

I think part of the problem with mid game production is a lack of really crazy stuff to build. Mid game, I’m not building units usually, because I’ve already built all the units I need. I’m often then buying buildings and other things with gold. There’s really only Wonders. Maybe planes. Maybe a Spy. And after that, I’m mostly just running projects.

My feeling is GS and the patches have sort of given everyone the tools to do something in the mid and late game. But we’re maybe needing a third expansion to flesh out what that “something” is, because at the moment it feels like all we have is Robots and Rockbands[0].

[0] Although, even that has go a bit better. It’s maybe worth building walls more now. And planes. And bit of a different story if you’re doing a Science Victory. And scored competitions. So, yeah, there is some stuff to spend all these lovely hammers on.

 

[Sostratus]

I think the way into the changes is really the Craftsmanship Card

I have run this card since time immemorial. It was bad for a long time but, once you run it in GS, it's really like having a +100% building card for the IZ. It's probably better to see it that way than just an adjacency card.

That said, I agree pacing still feels off generally, but particularly around Districts. I think the bigger issue though is how early Campuses arrive.

So many of the little details - like how resources can give science, culture, or faith - are obscured by the extremely early campus+TS.
If it were up to me, and it isn't, but if it were, I'd kick the campus back to education and make the library a CC building that only gives the +2 science (like the monument.) The gap between Unis and Labs would be filled by something like the Public School from civ5. I wish TS could be kicked to the middle ages too, I just don't know where. Medieval Faires fits the theme but is too late, it would be best in the Civil Service tier. (Acropolis would be okay as an "unlocked early" district.) Then you're left with Holy site as ancient, which is fine since it's a totally optional district for religion. CH and Harbor and EC classical, which I'm fine with since they give trade routes and some gold, and the EC should be available for players who need the amenity. (And its not like EC rush will ever be a thing in this game.) Sci/Culture/Production districts all coming in the middle ages. You'd have to move back Natural Philosophy and the theater one too, but that's okay. So the first two eras are much more impacted by your terrain utilization than slamming down as many cities and campuses as you can.

Edit: 1000th message! WOOOOOOO! Only 24 to go until I hit a big round number milestone.

 

[Bibor]

I think '10 turns to build' is the golden rule in this game. If it takes longer, either your production is not up to speed or you need to chop it.

Let me expand on this:
Scenario 1 - junker city: if you need only one district to build (say a +4 campus), the initial build might take very well over 20 turns. 20 turns is a decent amount of time if you literally just need the campus. But if you want libraries, etc. as well you need to either have cash at hand, chop them or wait for a very long time, during which this city is contributing nothing else. Basic production and growth is relatively easy to set up, usually needs around 6 worker charges. With some mines, lumbermills etc. your city will not only produce the campus in under 20 turns, but ensure you have enough production for later buildings. This is why I build either an aqueduct or granary first, even in a junker city, so it can grow to at least size 4-5.

Scenario 2 - normal city: costs of new buildings increase and yet you want these cities to fulfill multiple roles. Any of those roles will require your reaction in 10 turns or less - be it an war, new tech or wonder. Keeping your production at 10 or less turns means your cities will build at least 10 things in 100 turns, or 20 things over 200 turns. That's a lot of things. This logic doesn't delve into "are you spending the production wisely", that's up to you. It just gives you the means.
New production times are granting us exactly this.

My biggest concern right now is that tiles are an unreliable source of production manipulation. Once you commit (either to a tile improvement or district), there's no turning back. Borders grow so slowly that switching from production to food and vice versa is pretty much a goner, with some notable exceptions.

 

[Jerovich]

I’ve felt since Civ6 was released that IZ investments were unworthy in general terms.

This patch has definitely modified the impact IZs have in the game, but slightly in my opinion.

I usually play science games, and sometimes cultural ones. I can’t offer a proper point of view in other victory types since I’m not that experienced.

Building one full IZ is very useful if you need a very productive city (Spaceport, military needs and so on). Building two full IZs can be useful if you need the eurekas (2 coal plants, 2 oil plants). Building a third IZ can be useful for powering purposes. But that’s all IMO.

In terms of productivity: the district costs around 150-200 cogs, the workshop 150, factory and power plant a lot more. A full IZ can bring you a very productive city BUT...

I’ve always found it simpler, faster and smarter to build what you want or need (e.g. full campuses, theatres with anphitheatres and museums, holy sites, hubs, harbours, etc) instead of investing all that production in an IZ that will boost your production in later builds.

In conclusion, I’ll still build only the IZs needed for eurekas/power/spaceport. Maybe someone here can give me a good reason to invest on them further than that. It’d be so much appreciated.

Best regards my dear Civlovers!

 

[Sostratus]

In conclusion, I’ll still build only the IZs needed for eurekas/power/spaceport. Maybe someone here can give me a good reason to invest on them further than that. It’d be so much appreciated.

Well, IZs were a raging dumpster fire for most of vanilla and RF, but in GS they made not IZs but IZ adjacency extremely powerful with the coal plant. If you run craftsmen+coal plants, then the actual production provided by a lot of these IZs is extremely high. For example, if you observe a simple pair of Aqueducts feeding a pair of IZs for +5 each, just the IZ+coal plant together will grant 20. If you make one of those aqueduct triangles around a dam, maybe slap down another district to boost the 3 IZs to +8, that figure grows to 32 each. Germany or japan might be looking at 40 - 60. Then add on workshop and factory for another +9. The actual production of a good IZ is extremely high. Since you usually have most of this setup under craftsmen before you get the industrial, often the district has paid for itself+the workshop well before you even get to factories and coal plants. The chronology matters because at that stage in the game you have not yet unlocked research labs, broadcast towers, spaceport, etc., so investing production into future production can be very worthwhile since the alternative is running projects with a terrible conversion value.

The craftsmen card turns into 5 year plan that also touches campuses (which you should be trying for good adj on for rationalism,) so it's not like it's dead weight the whole game. You only need maybe 1 or 2 city clusters with these high adj IZs to have a backbone to do whatever you want. there's more than enough time to get campus+theater+commhub+iz in your core cities if you aren't warmongering, the only constraint is settling and growing them fast so you can build when districts are cheap.

 

[darkace77450]

In conclusion, I’ll still build only the IZs needed for eurekas/power/spaceport. Maybe someone here can give me a good reason to invest on them further than that. It’d be so much appreciated.

The Great Engineer points can be quite handy for space victories, and earning them via IZs + buildings frees your gold/faith up for other purchases.

 

[Kurnn]

I use all districts. Depending on the current game and my situation.
I LOVE that you cant just build all districts fast, in every city, anymore.

Industrial district is good for many things, but it is one of those that adds bonuses to your nearby cities. And if you have a city state or natural wonder that adds 3 hexes to all city effects that effects your friendly cities within 6 hexes. Thats 9 hexes and VERY good.

I only play on Marathon speed and Immortal difficulty. I know that fast speed and lesser difficulty has different priorities.
I must add, that every district you build, you get another "worker" in your city. (The specialist). You can put them whereever you want.
All districts are better then no districts for any city. The hex you built it in, will generate FAR more then any hex can do.

 

[local_hero]

Finally... the 30 production Hansa... I hope there is some niter to be discovered beneath my districts too.

 

[MrRadar]

Finally... the 30 production Hansa... I hope there is some niter to be discovered beneath my districts too.

Congrats!
But... Empire lens please! And mouse over the cog icon on the Hansa for the tooltip to show adjacency maths. Pretty please?!

 

[local_hero]

Congrats!
But... Empire lens please! And mouse over the cog icon on the Hansa for the tooltip to show adjacency maths. Pretty please?!

Sure! There was some niter, unfortunately it was on the Hansa tile...

 

[MrRadar]

Sure! There was some niter, unfortunately it was on the Hansa tile...

Ah, thank you! Now, that's a proper way to show off

 

[Sostratus]

Finally... the 30 production Hansa... I hope there is some niter to be discovered beneath my districts too.

Once you learn to spot rivers that support an aqueduct triangle (see sig) you can make a +30 with just 3 cities. It's amazing. And to think we once grovelled in the dirt with 6 cities to achieve such beauty!

 

[local_hero]

Once you learn to spot rivers that support an aqueduct triangle (see sig) you can make a +30 with just 3 cities. It's amazing. And to think we once grovelled in the dirt with 6 cities to achieve such beauty!

Yeah true. I was a bit anxious when I placed my districts this time though because it's not always a tile is eligible for a aqueduct. There is some other requirement in addition to border a river and being adjacent to the city center I haven't learned yet. Suppose I could check the civilopedia, but it's not reliable.

 

[Bibor]

There is some other requirement in addition to border a river and being adjacent to the city center I haven't learned yet. Suppose I could check the civilopedia, but it's not reliable.

It's actually quite easy. Here's an infographic.
Having a river between the city and aqueduct hex is not a prerequisite for building the aqueduct. City center itself is the aqueduct start node, and the other end must touch a river, lake or mountain, but it can't make a U-turn back to the river flowing between the aqueduct and city center.

 

[Victoria]

You only need maybe 1 or 2 city clusters with these high adj IZs to have a backbone to do whatever you want.

Yeah, I think the idea is to have a variety of cities. Heavy production cities, High science cities, a high pop city end so on.
Certainly the eurekas and inspirations encourage it.

Some great engineers are handy too.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Yeah, I think the idea is to have a variety of cities. Heavy production cities, High science cities, a high pop city end so on.
Certainly the eurekas and inspirations encourage it.

Some great engineers are handy too.

I'd certainly be happy for a return to more specialized type cities.

 

[Victoria]

I'd certainly be happy for a return to more specialized type cities.

It’s how I play. I often think people underestimate the value of inspirations and eurekas. They allow you to be a bit more lax with campus and theaters and a well rounded game feels better to me. I even mix my army real well, spears may seem a bit meh but can be useful and also at pike do become more hardy, more useful and just feels like an army.

 

[acluewithout]

Just some observations... and this seemed the best place to put this...

I’ve just had a game where I found I’d settled on Coal. Settling on Coal or some other resource, then making a triangle with CC, Aqueduct and IZ is very satisfying. That’s +4 right there. Get in a quarry or a couple of mines, or a Gov Plaza, and you’re at +5 to +6. It’s then not hard to get in a dam, and now you’re +7 to +8, without much effort. If it’s otherwise a good settled, then all that housing and amenities means I’m also working a lot of hill mines too. Really fun.

Getting a City like that, or with a good IZ otherwise, plus Craftsmanship and Magnus / Blackmarketeer is also handy and often fun. You basically end up with one City that can really push out units when required, which is just awesome.

There is also a weird dynamic with Tundra cities. Tundra Cities tend to have a lot of resources. Settled on a River, and throw in Aqueducts and Dams and you can get some awesome IZ. You have very little Pop though (without using internal resources), so its a real tricky one to get right - lots of production off the IZ but many mines aren’t getting worked unless you boost pop. But regardless, it makes Tundra Cities feel way more interesting. I find I have a real “up north” in a lot of my games now. (“Trouble at Mill...!”)