[GS] How do you use Industrial Zones after the changes?

[UWHabs]

Also makes the coastal IZ for Venetian Arsenal more worthwhile. It's often hard to find a high adjacency spot for that.

Yeah, that might be the better change, really. Previously, IZ were always best in an inland industrial park near a bunch of mines. But now, it should open up more spots on the coast or along rivers.

 

[Sostratus]

I'm pretty sure canals give bonus gold to trade routes passing through them, at least that's what it says in the civilopedia and the Civ Wiki. I haven't checked the numbers myself, I'll probably do that in my next game. The tricky part would be figure out what exactly the bonus is, it will probably be lumped in with the category "from other bonuses".

Currently what canals do is they add to the "route efficiency score" modifier that is the same bucket that water tiles and railroads and mountain tunnels add to - it caps at 100% of the base gold value of the int'l route. (Things like zimbabwe and various cards and merchant effects are added separately.) The Panama canal tile itself gives you +10 for owning it, but otherwise is exactly like a regular canal as far as I know. (someone correct me if i'm wrong)

So if the route is already almost entirely on water, the canal adds 0 to your trade route.

Also makes the coastal IZ for Venetian Arsenal more worthwhile. It's often hard to find a high adjacency spot for that.

On these new maps like small continent and seven seas where navy is more useful, venetian is much more useful. But I have always been struggling with this too! I either put my IZ Inland or if it's on the coast usually there's a harbor of something there instead. I hadn't even thought of this!

Unless I'm reading this wrong, IZs didn't really get the massive boost that was thought, only a marginal boost that barely impacted gameplay as it turned out. This makes me sad.

It depends on your playstyle. Just using mines and lumbermills now is no longer going to cut it; however, it has become much easier to get +5 and above than it was before. But you have to adjust to using more of the green districts - AQ, dam, canal. If you do, then production has gone up significantly, especially in otherwise low productivity cities without a lot of hilly areas. Some civs (japan, dutch, germany) have really benefitted. I mean I could repost examples from other threads but those guys can get boosts like +8, +10, (Germany mainly) +15. Anyone else can still see 6-8 in a fair number of cities just through planning and a little map luck. This is way better than before, but mostly only if you use craftsmen card.

I built more IZs than I usually do but even though there's more types of adjacency, I feel like it's harder to get good adjacency where I need to place the IZ with regional effects in mind, because now it require two mines so you end up building the IZs near stronger boosts, like strategic resources, quarries and Aqueducts/Dams. I also built more aqueducts than I usually do.

I get the sense that the IZ is now intended to be something you build more of than you need just for regional coverage. Between being able to get higher adjacency in more cities than before, the workshop giving +3, and coal plants, it just seems like building 4 IZs when you could have covered everything with 2 isn't a high crime against Sid Meier. Plus, more production is always fun!

 

[UWHabs]

Don't you also get "double-overlap" if one IZ has a coal plant and another is running an oil plant? If so, then generally speaking you need twice as many IZ as covers the area to maximize those benefits.

But yeah, I do think that I need to get back to building more IZ in general. If you plan to have them in almost all your cities, then you can really get some huge production by running Craftsman.

 

[leandrombraz]

Don't you also get "double-overlap" if one IZ has a coal plant and another is running an oil plant? If so, then generally speaking you need twice as many IZ as covers the area to maximize those benefits.

But yeah, I do think that I need to get back to building more IZ in general. If you plan to have them in almost all your cities, then you can really get some huge production by running Craftsman.

They don't stack, they count as if it was the same building.

 

[Sostratus]

Don't you also get "double-overlap" if one IZ has a coal plant and another is running an oil plant? If so, then generally speaking you need twice as many IZ as covers the area to maximize those benefits.

But yeah, I do think that I need to get back to building more IZ in general. If you plan to have them in almost all your cities, then you can really get some huge production by running Craftsman.

Craftsmen-Coal plant is so unbalanced I don't even know why they put coal plants in the game like that. But onto the point about power plant stacking...

They don't stack, they count as if it was the same building.

So technically the power plant auras are computed at the city level- if a city has multiple options, it goes with the highest one. The coal plant's aura has a zero tile range, but it's an aura nonetheless - so cities without IZs are still free to get oil/nuke coverage if you've gone heavy into coal, and those with coal plants can still get overridden by oil/nuke auras.

However, the nuke plant's aura is actually two: the prod and science are separate. This means that if you have a bunch of coal plants at +5 (or any number more than 4) those cities will still get the +3 science from a nuke plant in range.

But by that point it's not really a big deal, and uranium is much more useful for stomping robots than it is picking up a handful of extra science. Note that the patch also tweaked the power plant order of precedence so nuke is always used first if you've got uranium - before it was pretty easy to rig a scenario where you'd have nuke plants that never used fuel and you'd burn coal instead.

 

[UWHabs]

Craftsmen-Coal plant is so unbalanced I don't even know why they put coal plants in the game like that. But onto the point about power plant stacking...


So technically the power plant auras are computed at the city level- if a city has multiple options, it goes with the highest one. The coal plant's aura has a zero tile range, but it's an aura nonetheless - so cities without IZs are still free to get oil/nuke coverage if you've gone heavy into coal, and those with coal plants can still get overridden by oil/nuke auras.

However, the nuke plant's aura is actually two: the prod and science are separate. This means that if you have a bunch of coal plants at +5 (or any number more than 4) those cities will still get the +3 science from a nuke plant in range.

But by that point it's not really a big deal, and uranium is much more useful for stomping robots than it is picking up a handful of extra science. Note that the patch also tweaked the power plant order of precedence so nuke is always used first if you've got uranium - before it was pretty easy to rig a scenario where you'd have nuke plants that never used fuel and you'd burn coal instead.

Ah, I guess I should have read the rules. I just assumed that the coal plant production bonus was also a regional effect. It gets confusing. So do the power and production bonuses count separately? Like, if a city is in "range" of both a coal plant and an oil plant (ie. it has a coal plant, and a neighbour city has an oil plant), could it in theory gets its power from the oil plant, but as long as the coal plant is giving more than +3 production, the production bonus it gets would be from the coal plant?

If so, then I guess the best strategy would be to build coal plants in any high-adjacency districts, however making sure that you have oil plant coverage for areas without industrial zones, or whose industrial zones are getting attacked by spies, or if you want to run oil for power.

 

[Elhoim]

Craftsmen-Coal plant is so unbalanced I don't even know why they put coal plants in the game like that.

Yeah, as you can guess from my shots, I'm getting coal plants that give +16/18, which is crazy. Not sure if I want them nerfed, but oil makes almost no sense to build.

 

[Sostratus]

Ah, I guess I should have read the rules. I just assumed that the coal plant production bonus was also a regional effect. It gets confusing. So do the power and production bonuses count separately? Like, if a city is in "range" of both a coal plant and an oil plant (ie. it has a coal plant, and a neighbour city has an oil plant), could it in theory gets its power from the oil plant, but as long as the coal plant is giving more than +3 production, the production bonus it gets would be from the coal plant?

If so, then I guess the best strategy would be to build coal plants in any high-adjacency districts, however making sure that you have oil plant coverage for areas without industrial zones, or whose industrial zones are getting attacked by spies, or if you want to run oil for power.

Yes - the production aura is a separate computation from the power generation. Oil plants take precedence over coal in power generation, but coal plants almost always have higher +production- you can have the best of both worlds. And tesla doesn't make the coal plant's aura go up from 0 to 4 if you use him twice, it stays local.

Yeah, as you can guess from my shots, I'm getting coal plants that give +16/18, which is crazy. Not sure if I want them nerfed, but oil makes almost no sense to build.

I know what you mean. Slapping down +20 or +30 coal plants in germany games is part of the fun! I know that they saw my +45 hansa post in March, but they certainly haven't seemed to think many players are copying my tactics.

What i don't understand is, if they intended to have the shipyard effect in IZs, why make oil and nuke production aura so weak? If they thought players would average poor IZ adj, then why include the coal plants - it's a noob trap by their own design. If they thought players would average better IZs, then why include the oil plant at just +3? It's the noob trap at that point.
The real issue with oil is why use oil for power when every single land and naval unit needs oil to run? It's just waaay too precious to save a little co2 pollution on. You should be using nuke if you care about that anyways.

 

[acluewithout]

The real issue with oil is why use oil for power when every single land and naval unit needs oil to run? It's just waaay too precious to save a little co2 pollution on. You should be using nuke if you care about that anyways.

Well, it’s the same question in real life. You’re generally better of producing power from coal not oil. Oil is for cars and plastic.

In the game, I think the use case for Oil as power is just you have Oil but don’t have Coal, and you need Power more than Military. You’re probably not going to have Oil plants that often, which is fine.

Auras are a bit funny. I don’t think those Aura hammers have ever mattered, say compared with Aura amenities, culture, faith and science. I prefer how aura hammers work now - power plant’s main job is to give power, and the extra aura hammers are just for fun.

 

[S1AL]

Well, it’s the same question in real life. You’re generally better of producing power from coal not oil. Oil is for cars and plastic.

Kinda, but not really. Oil was the primary fuel source of electricity for a long time and dropped off due to prices, not efficiency. The game also doesn't acknowledge the existence of natural gas. The mechanical differences between the types of plants has absolutely nothing to do with reality, but that's another issue entirely.

The larger problem is that oil in-game is nowhere near its availability IRL. Would have been nice to have tiered technologies for extraction and the like.

 

[acluewithout]

Kinda, but not really. Oil was the primary fuel source of electricity for a long time and dropped off due to prices, not efficiency. The game also doesn't acknowledge the existence of natural gas. The mechanical differences between the types of plants has absolutely nothing to do with reality, but that's another issue entirely.

The larger problem is that oil in-game is nowhere near its availability IRL. Would have been nice to have tiered technologies for extraction and the like.

Fair enough.

It’s a pity there’s no natural gas in the game (even justice tip of the hat via a tech or policy card) and no sort of tiered unlocking of oil beyond onshore and offshore. It would also be ace if Oil was revealed on the maps in a couple of waves.

 

[Bibor]

I've been using IZs heavily even before the patch, but even more so now, here's how.

The combination of removal of Goddess of the Harvest, and incentive to keep jungles, means cities are bound to grow more slowly, making good adjacency IZs more significant in terms of overall production output, even before coal plants. In other words, yes, individual tiles are pretty strong production-wise, but it takes time to grow onto them.

I always play on disaster level 4, so take that into account, but:
If you have floodplains, dams are actually a good investment, as they provide housing and eventually power. By the time you get to Buttress, floodplains should've already done their yield-boosting job anyway, and serious floods can be devastating.
Engineers shave off quite a bit of production costs for these, so it's now worth building a few and keeping them around for later railroading.
Emphasizing Aqueducts means you have more liberty and incentive for settling spots without fresh water in the post-Engineering/post-Feudalism era, provided you plan for aqueduct placement. With dams and aqueducts, growth really stops being an issue.
I don't find canals very useful, but this really depends on the map. They are also really difficult to "hard build".

An low-yield IZ can realistically grant you +3, which will skyrocket with Guilds (Craftsmen card) and any industrial city-state(s) and coal plants, without you needing to jump through too many hoops to get the effects. Eventually, tile yileds can no longer compete with an average IZ production output, provided you have enough coal.

I personally priroritize setting up strong cities from turn 1 of settling (less emphasis on long-term wide planning), so district placements are usually planned around what that single city can do. This doesn't mean however that you can't get some crazy double floodplain river action going.

With good planning I get my IZs up to +5/+6 adjacency without too many issues, which is far higher than it used to be, as maps didn't change (i.e. it was always hard to get a good production/food city).

The biggest challenge for me is knowing *exactly* where aqueducts and especially dams can go before I have the tech and can check, because I had already some situations where I kept scratching my head as to why it's not a valid spot.

 

[Sostratus]

If you have floodplains, dams are actually a good investment, as they provide housing and eventually power. By the time you get to Buttress, floodplains should've already done their yield-boosting job anyway, and serious floods can be devastating.
Engineers shave off quite a bit of production costs for these, so it's now worth building a few and keeping them around for later railroading.
Emphasizing Aqueducts means you have more liberty and incentive for settling spots without fresh water in the post-Engineering/post-Feudalism era, provided you plan for aqueduct placement. With dams and aqueducts, growth really stops being an issue.
I don't find canals very useful, but this really depends on the map. They are also really difficult to "hard build".

I feel similarly. If you know you're going to build aqueducts, it doesn't make rivers any less of prime real estate, but it does seriously free up settling on the front end. You can military engineer canals.
I seem to start ending up with a ME brigade from a central encampment city (an armory is a eureka) to slam down dams and canals and aqueducts in new cities.

An low-yield IZ can realistically grant you +3, which will skyrocket with Guilds (Craftsmen card) and any industrial city-state(s) and coal plants, without you needing to jump through too many hoops to get the effects. Eventually, tile yileds can no longer compete with an average IZ production output, provided you have enough coal.

I personally priroritize setting up strong cities from turn 1 of settling (less emphasis on long-term wide planning), so district placements are usually planned around what that single city can do. This doesn't mean however that you can't get some crazy double floodplain river action going.

The coal constraint is only a power constraint - the coal plant gives its yield regardless - and if you don't have enough power for the factory, it's 3 production.

With good planning I get my IZs up to +5/+6 adjacency without too many issues, which is far higher than it used to be, as maps didn't change (i.e. it was always hard to get a good production/food city).

The biggest challenge for me is knowing *exactly* where aqueducts and especially dams can go before I have the tech and can check, because I had already some situations where I kept scratching my head as to why it's not a valid spot.

Double floodplain action is my favorite. Only exceeded by the odd river bend that lets me set up a triple AQ triangle for turbo adjacency gains. I used to get excited about +5 IZs. Now we need to be talking 7+ to pique my interest. (10 for germany or japan.)
The rules on aqueducts and dams are really weird and have gotten me good before. The mute horror of staring at the screen, realizing you already built the aqueduct and a couple districts around where that dam would go...
For the record, the actual dam rule is
1) On a floodplain
2) the tile must have the same river on two adjacent tile edges. This means a U shaped river bend, the inside will be okay but the outside won't. It also means that when a river meets the sea, depending on where the river mouth is, it may or may not work. But, when it does, there are often some very fun opportunities to get AQ+Dam+Canal all around one tile. I have an example in my Hansa guide of this with an ingame screen shot, just ignore the CH obviously.

I'm planning on making a generic IZ guide to go with my Hansa guide to cover stuff like this.

 

[UWHabs]

Hmm, now I'm thinking I should try an England game where I go crazy spamming military engineers, since they're the only civ that gets a bonus to them, right?

 

[Sostratus]

Hmm, now I'm thinking I should try an England game where I go crazy spamming military engineers, since they're the only civ that gets a bonus to them, right?

Yes. Aztecs have a pseudo boon in that you can have military engineers and builds on one tile for dual boosting.
But England's +100% prod and +2 charges is that only thing of its kind in the entire game. Basically quadruple engineer power. Send 2 engineers to a city and that's 80% of an aqueduct and dam. And the build time will be what another civ needs to rush 40% of just one of those.

 

[iammaxhailme]

Hmm, now I'm thinking I should try an England game where I go crazy spamming military engineers, since they're the only civ that gets a bonus to them, right?

Yes but I still don't find them to be super useful

 

[Sostratus]

Yes but I still don't find them to be super useful

They are supremely handy for flood barriers and canals, which are built late game and thus very pricey.
The U shape canals in particular a few posts of mine back are hardy tolerable without those MEs.

 

[darkace77450]

Do you find yourself using the Aqueducts or Dams to boost your IZs to compensate?

I don't, but not because they're lacking. Early game I'm usually too busy juggling other priorities; and by the time I hit Industrialization, the +2 adjacency bonus on offer is diminished by factories and coal plants.

 

[Sostratus]

and by the time I hit Industrialization, the +2 adjacency bonus on offer is diminished by factories and coal plants.

If you build a coal plant then that +2 is already going to be +4. Or +8 under craftsmen - beating the standard factory.
It's a good point about juggling the priorities, especially since early cities end up on rivers where the AQ is just an expensive granary.
One nice thing is since none of the green districts require population (they don't take up slots like specialty districts do) you can place them as soon as the tile is cleared of woods or resources and then just come back to them later; either when you've got time or you have military engineers around to crank 'em out.

 

[local_hero]

Been struggling to adapt to the new placement rules for IZ, but I did good in my latest game. Not Sostratus good, but still. It hurts a bit to place so many districts on floodplains, I want to make farms.