How should the West contain Russia?

[SnowlyWhite]

Have you ever heard about parades of NKVD veterans in Moscow? After USSR collapse? You can't blame Red Army for Katyn. The difference is simple: SS was acknowledged as criminal organization by Nurenberg trial. Red Army wasn't. And it wasn't criminal organization.
As for "neutral" () viewpoint of Estonians - it's because you weren't considered as untermenshen by Nazis, unlike Slavs. Ask Jews who was better for them, and what is their attitude to your SS parades. You'll hear neutral point of view.
For Red army veterans who was involved in murders - you won't believe, but there were trials, and many people were imprisoned even during WW2. As Estonians were. But for you, all of them certainly were victims of Stalin's repressions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

"Neither by any international military jurisdiction nor the Red Army’s leadership have any of its members have ever been charged with war crimes by a court of law."

Leaving aside I fail to see how the Red Army could've been on trial at Nurenberg...

And in cases like the photos disclosed in Finland in '06, nothing can be done either, because, gasp, your constitution prevents any prosecution from other countries on your citizens...

 

[Yeekim]

"Neither by any international military jurisdiction nor the Red Army’s leadership have any of its members have ever been charged with war crimes by a court of law."

I believe that quote speaks about only "Red Army's leadership" never been charged.
A bit lower, the article itself mentions Soviet troops sometimes having been executed for e.g. raping. Whether that constitutes "charged with war crimes by a court of law" rather than "being sent under tribunal for undisciplined behaviour" can be argued, of course

 

[Hadesspirit]

Maybe there comes the turn of EU to weaponize to respond Russia's moves on Caucasia.The silence of EU shows EU spiritless to Russia

 

[Winner]

Maybe there comes the turn of EU to weaponize to respond Russia's moves on Caucasia.The silence of EU shows EU spiritless to Russia

What do you propose?

 

[red_elk]

Sure, except the opinion was not given from USA to USSR but from USA Commission to USA government regarding formerly hostile party.
I'll make checking easier as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Estonian)
Baltic Waffen SS units were combat units. Nothing more, nothing less. The above link also (under part "modern controversy") also shows that Waffen-SS was considered criminal with certain exceptions - and that Baltic Legions were one of such exceptions.

Ok.
Tribunal declares to be criminal within the meaning of the Charter the group composed of those persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS as enumerated in the preceding paragraph who became or remained members of the organisation with knowledge that it was being used for the commission of acts declared criminal by Article 6 of the Charter or who were personally implicated as members of the organisation in the commission of such crimes, excluding, however, those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes.[17].
So, you can define your position.
1. They were fighters for independence, and joined SS voluntarily - in this case they are criminals.
2. They were drafted, had no choice. In this case they are not criminals, but it means they were just German conscripts, and fought for Hitler.

Why neutral with ? We were occupied, harassed and conscripted by both sides, unlike Jews were. Why should the opinion of the Jews be relevant to Estonians? They have right to their own opinion of Nazis and I do not argue about that. However, most Jewish people I've spoken to, actually very well understand difficult situation and difficult choices small nations must face between larger powers. They have both firsthand experience and intelligence for that, so it is no surprise really. About "our SS parades"... random Jew living abroad can't really be expected to make fine distinctions between "SS" units or know first thing about our history. In few years, there will be no veterans left to gather anyway, so this problem will wane anyway.

Opinions of Jews and Russians are relevant, because they are also Estonian citizens. If Jew is insulted by your parades, should he just shut up, because he's not Estonian by nationality?
And you are not neutral because you are not Slavs. Nazi were not going to exterminate you. Why Poles didn't join SS in their fight for independence? Are they not neutral (pro-USSR) as well?

With my bolded question, I was actually referring to that one specific event: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_Massacre

I answered that we have no parades of NKVD veterans, which are proud of doing this.

But yes, I am sure about many facing trial during the war. In another thread, I referred to a particular order given my Zhukov to execute families of those Russian soldiers fallen prisoner, for example. I also believe, that those who participated in war crimes were often punished. For example, some claim that soldiers buried under our infamous "Bronze Soldier" were actually Red Army soldiers caught marauding and executed by Soviet officers - since Tallinn was retaken by Red Army without battle.

Also, some Estonian SS-men were convicted for burning alive Belorussian villagers . I hope they are not marching through Tallin these days, but can't be sure.

 

[Yeekim]

Ok.
So, you can define your position.
1. They were fighters for independence, and joined SS voluntarily - in this case they are criminals.
2. They were drafted, had no choice. In this case they are not criminals, but it means they were just German conscripts, and fought for Hitler.

You conveniently disregarded the paragraph which talked about Baltic Legions in entirety, irrespective of how they were recruited, didn't you? So, according to you, any Estonian in German uniform must fit under one of two categories: 1) He fought for Hitler; 2) He was a criminal. Wonderfully broad-minded argument indeed.

Opinions of Jews and Russians are relevant, because they are also Estonian citizens. If Jew is insulted by your parades, should he just shut up, because he's not Estonian by nationality?

Estonian Jews know better than to pin the atrocities committed to their ancestors by Nazis to Estonians. EDIT: At least, on defenders of Blue Hills. Those with any degree of personal responsibility are long since been tried and executed.. You read what I wrote about Jews, right?

And you are not neutral because you are not Slavs. Nazi were not going to exterminate you.

Umm, if anything, that means the Slavs are not neutral. I hope even you can see that.

Why Poles didn't join SS in their fight for independence? Are they not neutral (pro-USSR) as well?

How could they? You seem to forget that USSR and Germany were ALLIES, when they JOINTLY attacked and conquered Poland. And after that... I think "Why Red Army stood and twiddled its thumbs across the Vistula River waiting for Nazis to suppress the Warsaw uprising?" is much better question.

I answered that we have no parades of NKVD veterans, which are proud of doing this.

They weren't especially proud even right after they did this. They pinned it on Germans as you know... But how about parades with portraits of Stalin, who gave the command?

Also, some Estonian SS-men were convicted for burning alive Belorussian villagers . I hope they are not marching through Tallin these days, but can't be sure.

1) There has, afaik, never been any "SS-parade" in Tallinn. Commemorations at Blue Hills battle site is about as much as has ever happened. EDIT: Checked my facts, must revise.There was some gathering in 2004, at least.
2) I have heard accusations about some Estonians committing crimes in Belorussia and I have heard rebuttals. I need to look it up. However, if they really were convicted (in which court?, Do you have any source?), then you surely know what punishment they faced. Unlikely they would march anywhere after that. And even if that story is true? How many participated? There were 70 000 Estonians in German army, they all should not be judged according to that.

 

[red_elk]

You conveniently disregarded the paragraph which talked about Baltic Legions in entirety, irrespective of how they were recruited, didn't you? So, according to you, any Estonian in German uniform must fit under one of two categories: 1) He fought for Hitler; 2) He was a criminal. Wonderfully broad-minded argument indeed.

Show me where Nuremberg trial states that Baltic Legions are exception? May be I missed something. So far, I see only 2 possibilities, either they were SS and criminals, or they were conscripts and fought for Hitler.

Estonian Jews know better than to pin the atrocities committed to their ancestors by Nazis to Estonians. EDIT: At least, on defenders of Blue Hills. Those with any degree of personal responsibility are long since been tried and executed.. You read what I wrote about Jews, right?

Ask any Jew in your country, what he would prefer, Nazi rule, or USSR? That's what I meant.

Umm, if anything, that means the Slavs are not neutral. I hope even you can see that.

What you mean, "even you"? I think, between USSR and Nazi, Slavs were not neutral . And Estonians were on the other side, they prefer Nazis to Soviets as I heard from Estonian (by nationality) people many times.

How could they? You seem to forget that USSR and Germany were ALLIES, when they JOINTLY attacked and conquered Poland. And after that... I think "Why Red Army stood and twiddled its thumbs across the Vistula River waiting for Nazis to suppress the Warsaw uprising?" is much better question.

We were talking about 1944, year when many Estonians joined SS for their "fight for independence". USSR and Germany were allies in 1944? Do you see the difference between behaviour of Poles and your people?

They weren't especially proud even right after they did this. They pinned it on Germans as you know... But how about parades with portraits of Stalin, who gave the command?

In Russia, there is no official negation of proven crimes, made by Stalin or NKVD. Unlike Estonia, where crimes of people or organization can be justified, only because they fought against USSR.

1) There has, afaik, never been any "SS-parade" in Tallinn. Commemorations at Blue Hills battle site is about as much as has ever happened. EDIT: Checked my facts, must revise.There was some gathering in 2004, at least.
2) I have heard accusations about some Estonians committing crimes in Belorussia and I have heard rebuttals. I need to look it up. However, if they really were convicted (in which court?, Do you have any source?), then you surely know what punishment they faced. Unlikely they would march anywhere after that. And even if that story is true? How many participated? There were 70 000 Estonians in German army, they all should not be judged according to that.

They should not all be judged according to that. People who committed crimes (from all sides) must be convicted personally. Organizations which are criminal according to previous trials must be banned. Promoting or glorification of such organizations is a crime.