How should we help the extremely poor?

What should we do?


  • Total voters
    45
i hate to say it, but if our economy collapses as trade goods flood in, how will we be able to help ourselves, let alone anyone else. that may just accomplish the 1st and 3rd worlds switching positions

EDIT: read below, i take this back
 
and western "protectionism" is a very small phenomenon, usually applied to key goods. very few african or 3rd world countries are even capable of manufacturing many of the goods we tariff. there are very few barriers against farm products, but its not as if the 3rd world has food to spare. we actually feed much of south america and china through exports
 
Mastreditr111 said:
i hate to say it, but if our economy collapses as trade goods flood in, how will we be able to help ourselves, let alone anyone else. that may just accomplish the 1st and 3rd worlds switching positions

Our economy is nowhere near "collapse."
 
skadistic said:
Give then food and water only. In this world the only way to get out of poverty is to work your way out.
Even that doesn't work sometimes. Even in the U.S. it is possible to lack to tools to make money and earn food. That's where we come in, to give them the tools.
 
betazed said:
I made a post in another thread and thought it really needs its own thread.

From time to time in CFC OT in different threads the issue of Africa and how the world (mostly the western world) should (or should not) help comes up. Many people have many different opinions on it. I thought it would be interesting to know what they are and why they are. So here is a not-so-hypothetical scenario and I ask your opinion on it.

There is a village in sub-Saharan Africa. The population density is low. There are few mud-houses scattered here and there. The nearest town in about 20 miles. There are no road links. 30% of the people in the village suffer from AIDs and 100% of children (and about 75% of the population) suffer from seasonal malaria. The fertility rate in about 5 - 6 per woman. The soil is depleted of nutrients so although farming is done it is barely enough to keep hunger at bay. There is no clean water supply and electricity is unheard of. There are no hospitals or schools either.

Now what exactly do you think we should do (if we should do anything) to help this village and other villages like these which number in thousands in sub-Saharan Africa?

A poll is coming up.

Unfortunately, development, as a field and an industry, simply doesn't work along these sort of technocratic equations, solutions based on them usually fail, sometimes spectacularly. The above paragraphs do not take enough into account, such as the local assets (and there are always some), the local context, history of development in the area, political situation, etc..

Actually, the example is exactly what is wrong with the development field in general. Cookie-cutter technical solutions that are applied with little regard for reality and contextual realities.

First, though, it should be noted that development is an extremely broad and complex field, incorporating a number of disciplines. Unfortunately, it's a highly charged one as well, and, say unlike with electrical engineering, every average joe feels as if they have solution and opinion, but it's just not true, and the last fifty-years of post-WWII development have witnessed a staggering number of development interventions and failures. Most of these are not actually due to "corrupt governments" but because the premise of that sort of aid (termed bilateral aid, gov't to gov't) is usually given for political reasons and not for actual development reasons, think of that sort of aid as birbery or goodwill. Moreover, most gov't aid agencies are bunglers (or worse, witness USAID support for what were little better than concentration camps in Guatemala for instance), such as USAID, due to political appointee leadership and a poor grasp of development theory. There is definitely corruption, but it is blown way of out bounds, mostly to suit the rabble-rousing of right-wingers.

There are all sorts of other types of aid, such as direct food aid, which mostly benefit American big agrobusiness and some shipping interests, who fight hard for subsidies. Unfortunately, food aid projects are rarely implemented correctly, leading, ironically, to the undercutting of local economies (never mind the horrible effect of subsidies to 3rd world farmers everywhere, occasionally leading to farmers turing away from local production due to the food aid turning into lower priced competition and, occasionally, mass starvation, oops!

The rest of aid tends to be a mishmash of international non-government organizations (INGO) and their projects. Now, these are non-governmental organizations, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily better. There are a wide variety of different organizations of varying ability and ideologies. They range from whacko religous-based ones, such as World Vision, which are basically fronts from evangelicalism, to radical NGOs who support social struggle. Take your pick.

This is leaving out the huge field of development theory, which may be for the best as I don't feel like fighting with the neolibs at the moment. I'll just say this, promoting sweatshops as along-term sustainable development is ignorant and naive.

Unfortunately, in a large sense what all this boils down to is experimenting on the poor. The International Development graduate program I just finished is kicking around the idea of implementing a licensing system for practitioners to cut down on the number of technocrats and economic neolibs screwing everything up, the idea being you wouldn't have unlicensed carpenters building Boeing 747's, so you shouldn't have a bunch of unqualified fools running development programs, or being appointed to run them.
 
Mastreditr111 said:
and western "protectionism" is a very small phenomenon, usually applied to key goods. very few african or 3rd world countries are even capable of manufacturing many of the goods we tariff. there are very few barriers against farm products, but its not as if the 3rd world has food to spare. we actually feed much of south america and china through exports

What about sugar? link I'm pretty sure a lot of 3rd world countries can produce that... :rolleyes:
 
They can, but where exactly to we get sugar? Those 3rd world countries, thats where. Haiti and the Dominican Republic come to mind. Considering the price of sugar, I cannot quite picture a high tariff on it.
 
Mastreditr111 said:
and western "protectionism" is a very small phenomenon, usually applied to key goods. very few african or 3rd world countries are even capable of manufacturing many of the goods we tariff. there are very few barriers against farm products, but its not as if the 3rd world has food to spare. we actually feed much of south america and china through exports

Acutally, many developing countries have, or would have, plenty of food to spare, and would wipe the floor with American agribuisness, if it weren't for subsidies.
 
Mastreditr111 said:
They can, but where exactly to we get sugar? Those 3rd world countries, thats where. Haiti and the Dominican Republic come to mind. Considering the price of sugar, I cannot quite picture a high tariff on it.
Did you even read that link? The EU (and I believe also the US) pays it's sugar farmers around three times the market price for sugar. How does the third world compete?
 
Mastreditr111 said:
i hate to say it, but if our economy collapses as trade goods flood in, how will we be able to help ourselves, let alone anyone else. that may just accomplish the 1st and 3rd worlds switching positions
Well, since we buy the trade goods we'd reach equilibrium long before collapse. And actually it can be beneficial by freeing up labor for more lucretive tasks.
 
read the edit, perfection

Gangor, no i didnt, there was a link? Also, i looked on a bag of sugar, and it was a product of the Dom. Republic.

zamecnik- they should sell their food to China and India and nations that need it, then, not to us. We can produce enough food to sustain our population 4 times over easily, so why should we buy theirs?
 
Mastreditr111 said:
Gangor, no i didnt, there was a link? Also, i looked on a bag of sugar, and it was a product of the Dom. Republic.

The US still contrives to produce over 8 million tons of the stuff annually, and the EU twice that. Also, let me quote from the link you can't be bothered reading:
Richard Waghorne said:
It has been calculated (Borrell and Pearce, 1999) that unhindered global trade in sugar would add $4.7 billion to world GDP. Donald Mitchell of the World Bank has suggested free trade in sugar could create a million jobs in poor countries.

zamecnik- they should sell their food to China and India and nations that need it, then, not to us. We can produce enough food to sustain our population 4 times over easily, so why should we buy theirs?
Because it would be cheaper than buying unsubsidised locally produced food.

Edit: changed the numbers... (upwards)
 
Gangor said:
Also, let me quote from the link you can't be bothered reading:

I didn't say I couldn't read it, I missed entirely!!!! I am not that much of an a**hole.

also, their food could really be put to much better use in China or India... why go to the expense of shipping it halfway around the world, then ship our food halfway back to sell it to China, when we can just eat ours, and they can sell to China. I also debate that American agriculture is THAT much more expensive than 3rd world. I'm sure the costs are higher, but that is because we go to extremes to make our food extremely nutritative and safe for consumption. I expect that our higher labor costs are balanced by their lower yields. Actually our labor costs are not that high. My grandfather is a farmer, and his income is something like 9,000$ a year, but when my mom was groing up he kept part of his produce and the co-op system provided both housing and electricity around the area.
 
Mastreditr111 said:
I didn't say I couldn't read it, I missed entirely!!!! I am not that much of an a**hole.

also, their food could really be put to much better use in China or India... why go to the expense of shipping it halfway around the world, then ship our food halfway back to sell it to China, when we can just eat ours, and they can sell to China. I also debate that American agriculture is THAT much more expensive than 3rd world. I'm sure the costs are higher, but that is because we go to extremes to make our food extremely nutritative and safe for consumption. I expect that our higher labor costs are balanced by their lower yields. Actually our labor costs are not that high. My grandfather is a farmer, and his income is something like 9,000$ a year, but when my mom was groing up he kept part of his produce and the co-op system provided both housing and electricity around the area.
If that's the case, why are subsidies needed? I'll tell you why: to protect the rich farming co-ops from imports from poor third world countries.
 
Ok i already said they are higher, but there are safety reasons behind this. Anyway, China buys food from us, and it CANNOT possibly be more efficient, in financial or personal terms, to ship food from Africa to us, unload it, then load some of ours and ship it to China. Ship their food to China, save oil, and money.
 
Mastreditr111 said:
Ok i already said they are higher, but there are safety reasons behind this. Anyway, China buys food from us, and it CANNOT possibly be more efficient, in financial or personal terms, to ship food from Africa to us, unload it, then load some of ours and ship it to China. Ship their food to China, save oil, and money.
Then explain why the subsidies have to exist.
 
To be completely honest, I don't know, I was never arguing in their favor, just that it doesn't (or shouldn't) really matter that much. Do you know how big they are? (honest question)

By the standards of this country, farmers do more work than just about everyone and make less money as well. The co-ops in PA are not rich, though it is hard to be more poor than an African farmer. There is no standard for comparison there, so do not try that.
 
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