how to make the most out of the spiritual trait?

[smjjames]

I've heard that some ppl don't like the spiritual trait that much for various reasons, partly because.. well, I dunno.

but anyway, I did hear somewhere that it is a good trait of you use it right, so thats what I'm wondering about.

 

[Lord Chambers]

Switch civics more often than not. That means war civics for going to war, and peace ones for being at peace. Boom.

 

[sand]

found early religions to get the most out of cheap temple's.

 

[Immaculate]

Its one of my two favorite traits (alongside philo- Arabs are my fav.).

1) religous scouting. If you control more then one holy city, you can switch between the religions you 'control/founded' to see more of the enemy civ before attacking.

2) GPP generation. Switch to caste system/pacifism when you are trying to push for a particular Great Person

3) Adopting slavery for five turns to get all your whipping done then convert back to whatever else you want to use. this means, in the late game, when you would normally run emancipation mostly, you can still maek use of slavery. Also, you can get more out of your workers by swithcing between serfdom and slavery as required.

4) Buying sprees, then a return to police state/representation or Hed. Rule as required. You don't have to stay in Univ. Suffrage to buy a bunch of stuff for you cties. Just time it so you are buying all your stuff within the same general time frame (five turns), then go back to whatever you need depending on your play-style.

You'll find that your civ goes trough regular repeating civic epics depending on your requirements. Maybe police state/theocracy/vassalge during and prior to war, representation/caste system/pacificism for GPP generation, hereditary rule/serfdom (or slavery)/organized religion for infrastructure developement, etc.


My 2cents i am sure others will have more/better advice.

 

[Oggums]

Switch between theocracy and organized religion often, whenever it suits your immediate needs.

Or switch to slavery and whip out some buildings/units, then back to something else.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

but anyway, I did hear somewhere that it is a good trait of you use it right, so thats what I'm wondering about.

Spiritual: No Anarchy, double production speed of temple.

OK, cheap temples means that cultivating many religions is a cheap way to acquire happiness.

No Anarchy means that changing civics, or state religions, for momentary, temporary advantage is viable (because it doesn't cost you any turns). So how do you leverage that.

Religious spying is one technique: if you own the holy city, you can see all cities with your religion in the world. So when you change from one religion to another, cities that were hiding in the darkness suddenly appear on the map. And you can see what is going on in the neighborhood, so it's a great way to keep an eye on your neighbors.

But it also means that you can change your civics to meet the immediate needs of your economy. Want faster buildings? Switch to OrgRel. Want better units? Switch to Vassalage/Theocracy.

You can exploit this in at least two ways: get your economy on cycle (so that all cities are producing units, or all cities are producing buildings), and you can zimzam your civics back and forth depending on what you are building at the moment.

You can even get micro with this. The +2XP civics only matter when the unit is finished. So you can build a unit, take if off the queue when it is finished, and switch civics when enough cities have units ready. Switch civics, finish the units, switch back 5 turns later.

You can, of course, switch civics mid turn: so you can slave rush all your buildings, then switch civics, then run your workers (or the other way around).

Of course, this only works if you have lots of civcs to play with. Which means that (1) technologies which unlock civics have a higher research priority than it would be true otherwise, (2) the Pyramids is huge huge huge.

Nicely, these technologies are all grouped together in the tree. Masonry is on the way to Monotheism/Theology/Monarchy.

For instance, research Polytheism, Masonry (hook up some marble), Monotheism, Priesthood (start the Oracle), Writing, finish the Oracle, take Theology. You've now got two or three religions in hand, an extra source of Priest points, and two religious civics that are very easy to leverage in the Ancient and Classical eras.

If you weren't Spiritual, the civics would be less important. The same strategic idea would be more likely to play as Meditation (or Poly) Priesthood Writing + Oracle = Code of Laws, and gun for a Great Prophet to pick off Philosophy for you (not an option in the other path, because you've grabbed Masonry). [ Edit:Actually, this approach here is a pretty good one for Saladin, as Caste System and Pacifism play very well with Philosophical, and Angkor Wat + Shrines + GPP bonus is pretty sweet.]

If religions and civics aren't fun, spiritual is probably not the trait for you.

 

[Immaculate]

The same strategic idea would be more likely to play as Meditation (or Poly) Priesthood Writing + Oracle = Code of Laws, and gun for a Great Prophet to pick off Philosophy for you (not an option in the other path, because you've grabbed Masonry).

Just to clarify. You use a great SCIENTIST to get philosophy and this is not dependant on getting masonry or not. Voice is mixed up with civil service which is the great PROPHET option that is available after code of laws if you don't have masonry.

 

[The Tyrant]

The Spiritual trait allows an enormous amount of flexibility (no anarchy for switching civics is incredible) and allows you to mimic many of the other traits by using civics appropriately. The following is compiled (shamelessly plagiarized) from here and here:

Building infrastructure: Bureaucracy, Serfdom, Organized Religion.

War-time production: Police State, Vassalage, Caste System (for expanding conquered cities culture) and Theocracy.

Lots of cash on hand: Switch to Universal Suffrage for a few turns

Suddenly attacked by the AI? Switch to Statehood and start conscripting units.

AI asks you to accept their favorite civic/religion... no problem, and you can switch back 5 turns later without losing the diplo bonus you got from agreeing to their request.

Want a quick land grab like creative? Use Caste System/Free Speech for a few turns.

Want to be a peaceful builder getting GP like a philosophical leader? Switch to Representation/Mercantilism/Pacifisim

Want a quick wonder but like Representation? Don't worry, switch to Organized Religion to build faster, Serfdom to cut forest faster, Universal Suffrage to get a few more hammers and allow rushing, 5-10 turns later you go back to your Representation/Free Religion mode.

If you have multireligion, you can switch state religion to 1) scout different sets of AI cities; 2) make friends with someone who threatens you most that you don't want to fight, or a leader who has more techs to trade 3) somewhat control the culture spread.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Just to clarify. You use a great SCIENTIST to get philosophy and this is not dependant on getting masonry or not. Voice is mixed up with civil service which is the great PROPHET option that is available after code of laws if you don't have masonry.

Well, if you want to be technical, the Great Scientist is going to prioritize Mathematics first, where the Great Prophet needs to clear Civil Service and Monarchy off the decks.

Either way works, although Immaculate is quite correct for calling me out, as I did make it sound simpler than it is in practice.

 

[JoeBlade]

What Tyrant said.

I used to dislike spiritual at first as well, but these days I can hardly live with the ability to switch between civics and religions on a whim anymore.

Also keep in mind that switching to another civ's favourite civic is a non-issue with spiritual. Just switch back a few turns later and you'll still have that "You adopted our favourite civic" relation bonus with the civ.

Also, you can use it to temporarily boost relations with other civs through the "You have wisely chosen your civics" bonus. It takes a while to increase but I've seen it go as high as +5.

 

[VirusMonster]

Very good posts all, I can find little to add.

Best use of religious trait is probably to switch between optimal infrastructure building, warmongering, and Great Person production civics. The nr.1 mistake you can do with religious trait is to forget the flexibility available to you.

And if you meet an enemy civilization you can't match, try to align your civic with his civics, so you can get "you have chosen your civics wisely." bonus to help your diplomatic struggle.

 

[VirusMonster]

The problem with spiritual is that early game you don't have many (or any) civics to choose from. As the gain more civics, you can start micromanaging.

 

[Immaculate]

Well, if you want to be technical, the Great Scientist is going to prioritize Mathematics first, where the Great Prophet needs to clear Civil Service and Monarchy off the decks.

Either way works, although Immaculate is quite correct for calling me out, as I did make it sound simpler than it is in practice.

Actually, i didn't know that. I have never tried to get philo with a great prophet. I would imagine that waiting for civil service and monarchy to be done (or traded) would mean that you lose out on Taoism (which i guess isn't too bad). Do you atually do this in your games Voice?

In many cases, what i do is get buddhism or polytheism, then a worker tech (usually agriculture, sometimes fishing), then priesthood and writing and math (helps chop out the last of the oracle sometimes if tech is fast and hammers is slow). Oracle grabs code of laws. I build a temple after the oracle and run a priest to speed up getting my prophet. A second city builds a library and runs two scientists until a great scientist is produced (timed to go after the prophet pops). Prophet pops me civil sercice and scientist pops me philosophy. This does a few things: puts me in charge of three religions (buddhism/polythiesm and confusionism and taoism), gives me a head-start on the liberatlism race (though i usually swing by currency first), and puts me in a great position to start a GPP farm (caste system and pacifism are now both open). I was thinking of putting this together with Mutineer's early muskets strategy but have yet to implement it. I imagine that i could pop another scientist in time to help with education (or paper if i am fast but i think paper researched and education scientist-rushed would be better- Mutineer- you around? watchia think?)

Anyway, having shared one of my favorite strategies, i would love to hear about how you make philosophy with a great prophet fit into your strategies.

PS: Didn't mean to sound confrontational, just didn't know you could do that.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Actually, i didn't know that. I have never tried to get philo with a great prophet. I would imagine that waiting for civil service and monarchy to be done (or traded) would mean that you lose out on Taoism (which i guess isn't too bad). Do you atually do this in your games Voice?

No, this was all just an exercise in thinking about it, partly from experimenting recently with Saladin, partly from experimenting with Monty, and in particular thinking about the challenge of getting more than one religion into a city. I wrote it up in the hopes that someone would spot ways to improve it (which I think running scientists does - over committed to first scientist for Academy, I am).

So here's my thought - if we're making a run toward Philosophy, do we really want to stop off at Civil Service first? What if instead we crank on the scientist first? So Mysticism Meditation Priesthood Writing [Oracle] Code of Laws Mathmatics [scientist]->Philosophy [prophet]->Civil Service

or alternatively [prophet]->Shrine [prophet]->Civil Service.

Part of the goal here being to try to get both religions (and the Oracle too, if that's possible) into the same city. The perfect storm would probably be a situation where you get your second city, a GP farm under a forrest, and chop the oracle there. The library in the capital lands you the scientist you need for Philosophy, which also appears in the second city. Now you can take your time. A couple temples will help speed up the prophets, and the shrines each give you three slots as well. National Epic and later Wall Street go here, the Angkor Wat whenever you can manage it, and you start attaching 2P/5g prophets to the city. A lot of them.

My guess is that it is too slow - unless you happen to be able to block off a chunk of territory, waiting so long for city #3 is going to be a realy handicap. But Saladin is Philosophical, doubling his GP score, so maybe it can be done. (I wouldn't consider it with anybody else).

 

[Immaculate]

In relation to what you mentioned about philosophy before civil service (or your first great prophet), i have never tried that; usually i need early hammers for war and not libraries but i think that would a good idea.

I think you will find that you have plenty of time to research math by the time a scientist pops (even with a philosophical leader) and that researching math is pretty cheap whearas philosophy is comparatively VERY Expensive. In my humble (but on this issue, educated) opinion, its best to research cheap techs and great-person research the more expensive ones (for example, use a scientist for education, not paper).

I am playing as greece in my current game and was able to do the oracle slingshot to Civil Service (i need irrigation chains more then theology and didn't have masonry or marble so it was actually easier) so i lost theology.

I was able to grab philo with a scientist and now (in 5AD i think) i have confu, philosophy and am on my way. I am posting the game so you can have a look/compare to how you would play. I will post the 4000BC auto-start too.

Research is now at 0% while i build courthouses and research currency (before i finish civil service). I took over two civs and have more cities then i can afford (temporary) so thats a priority.
So the two options for getting to paper (and on to liberalism) are civil service and theology. Civil service is more expensive but provides more benefits during what should be a peaceful period of expansion and consolidation so i went with that. I guess the determining factor would be if you have researched masonry and organized religion or not (the only reason i would do that is if i had marble/stone).

After these techs, the plan continues to be a run for liberalism, the development of gun-powder based weapons and a second war of expansion.



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View attachment 125892

I guess i don't even have spiritual here, so this post may be inappropriate for the thread but it does continue our discussion. I hope no one minds too much.

 

[Immaculate]

National Epic and later Wall Street go here, the Angkor Wat whenever you can manage it, and you start attaching 2P/5g prophets to the city. A lot of them.

My guess is that it is too slow - unless you happen to be able to block off a chunk of territory, waiting so long for city #3 is going to be a realy handicap. But Saladin is Philosophical, doubling his GP score, so maybe it can be done. (I wouldn't consider it with anybody else).

what about ironworks/wall street? That would be my choice if i had lots of priest super-specialist.

 

[futurehermit]

don't know if anyone has said this yet but if you're playing on normal speed spiritual is nearly worthless imo since anarchy only lasts one turn (you would have to be changing civs a LOT for it to make THAT much of a difference esp in order to justify sacrificing a different trait).

spiritual is HUGE though if you're playing marathon or even epic since anarchy lasts longer.

 

[sucinum]

Anarchy may last 2 (or even 3?) turns as well on normal speed, if you switch enough civics at the same time.

 

[futurehermit]

i guess, but i still think it's MUCH more worth it on epic/marathon. for 2-3 turns i'd rather have a different trait imho.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

what about ironworks/wall street? That would be my choice if i had lots of priest super-specialist.

Ironworks/WallStreet is clearly the ideal situation for a priest, but I'm not sure that it's ideal for a civ. Ironworks comes in the industrial era, vs Literature at the beginning of the classical era. I think you will be better served by getting priests sooner than by doubling their production value in the endgame.

There's also the fact that forge+ironworks is pretty unhealthy - not a good thing for a GP farm (although perhaps a non issue).

And where Ironworks maxes out the value of the priest specialist, the specialist (2P) doesn't do nearly as much for the Ironworks as a plains mine (5P).

Put in more abstract terms, you want the GPFarm put where you have the most (concentrated) food available, but you want the Ironworks where you have the most food+production available.

So I'm not sure this is a match; I think I could be persuaded, though.