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How to Nerf the Shoshone [Brainstorming]

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by MerchantCo, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. MerchantCo

    MerchantCo Merchant

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    1. Replace the music with a loop of "Colors of the Wind" from Pocahontas. [nobody would want to play it]

    2. The "Great Expanse" ability only gives four extra tiles per city.

    3. The Pathfinder can only choose each reward from a ruin once.

    4. Change the civilization's color from brown to hot pink.

    Now you think up some ideas!

    Moderator Action: Moved to BNW.
     
  2. IkM

    IkM King

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    Haven't played BNW yet but Pathfinder seems really op. also Assyrian UU op too.
     
  3. Helmling

    Helmling Philosopher King

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    1. Hey, I LOVE that song!
    2. That sounds reasonable...maybe 6?
    3. Depending on map size, that might be too big of a nerf. What if there's just a chance for each ruins that the bonus you select won't be there.
    4. I do like their color scheme now...
     
  4. FeiLing

    FeiLing Deity

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    Yeah talk about nerfing before 85% of the players even were able to test them ;)

    I'm excited for their early game advantages, that is however all they got (The comanche rider is only fluff to me, it's 99% the same as a standard cavalry). Obviously they need to be strong and obviously they'll always be no.1 on the leaderboard early due to the land giving so many points, but that is probably a bit misleading. And if they weren't very strong in the super early game, how would they compete at the later stages when the unique traits of the other civs kick in?

    Ruins? I don't see a problem... how many ruins do you usually get per game? 3? Maybe 5 on a very lucky day. If there's a problem at all, then that you get a comp bowman from the upgrade ruin. Then again others get a Ram from a warrior or a Knight from a Chariot Archer, so maybe that isn't as overpowered as I initially thought.

    Also: Your no.4 probably would cause the exact opposite of what you thing it would do :culture:
     
  5. pilot00

    pilot00 King

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    As if it needs testing. Gimme a couple mins to start a new game.

    Ok, pop,tech,culture,pop, culture, faith yep it needs nefring :lol:
     
  6. True_Candyman

    True_Candyman Emperor

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    You can do that as any civ... Most games in G&K i get at least 2 strong ruins. The pathfinders ability lets it get maybe one more solid one and then you get into the "meh" ones.

    It's really not OP, it's just a nice little early boost. Nothing that can't be overcome, and therefore not OP.
     
  7. Babri

    Babri Emperor

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    The only things 'I feel' that need nerfing are:-


    Pathfinders upgrading to composite bows without researching construction.

    Instead of ruin bonus can be repeated every 3 ruins, this could be changed to every 4.

    Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 4 Beta
     
  8. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    The Shoshone don't need nerfed.

    While the Pathfinder is useful, its not overly useful. You're not going to get many more techs from ruins than you normally might. The Faith is probably the most useful pick; you're for sure to get a Pantheon early. The Culture and +pop are nice, but not uncommon rewards for ruins normally. The Comp Bow upgrade is good, but it doesn't stay good. And you don't have the army to back it up at the time when it would be most useful for a rush. After you get to the Classical Era, it's just like a normal Scout Comp Bow unit. There aren't many ruins after that to take advantage of after that.

    The Vast Expanse ability only picks up the tiles that the city would've selected anyway, given enough culture. So you still get a lot of useless land with your handful of resources. It just gets the tiles early, not every so many turns. And it's not like the maximum spread has been increased; The Shoshone borders just reach the limit earlier.
     
  9. True_Candyman

    True_Candyman Emperor

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    The shoshone don't actually have any potential boosting bonuses either. Great Expanse helps them get more tiles early but it doesn't allow them to use any more tiles, so it just maximises quicker in theory. But seeing as you generally don't get citizens enough to fill out those spots all it does instead is optimise. So essentially that bonus is trying to get you close to an optimal start, but still isn't as good as a salt start (unless you have salt...). It helps prevent enemy expansion too and grab things quicker, but that's just a bonus, not particularly powerful per say because you would be doing that anyway for a minor gold/culture cost.

    As for the pathfinder, again you're just getting bonuses you would get anyway, only slightly more of them. Where the pathfinder starts pulling ahead of just a warrior or a scout is around turn 30 when everyone's grabbed 2 or 3 ruins. IF you can mop up a few more, you get some other rapidly depreciating bonuses.

    Neither of these things increase the Shoshone's potential towards any victory condition. They only increase it's efficiency early on, and that can be overcome by other civs who later get bonuses the Shoshone cannot match.
     
  10. HardRocker

    HardRocker Student.

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    I think that the only nerfing that the Shoshone need is to start with a warrior. They are the only civ in the game that starts with a scout-type unit, and it is too big of a boost I think. Make them build the Pathfinder from scratch to get the bonuses, but maybe make them cheaper so it's still somewhat of a boost.

    Idk, just brainstorming, but I really like the Great Expanse ability so I don't want them to lose it :lol:
     
  11. True_Candyman

    True_Candyman Emperor

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    I would have thought that originally they would have started with a warrior and play testing deemed that the pathfinder was essentially useless unless they started with it.

    It's not like this civ has just been thought up and thrown at us, there's plenty of testing that's gone on to get it to its current state, and certainly a lot more than anyone has done with them since release :rolleyes:
     
  12. Seabastian Civ

    Seabastian Civ King

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    Agree w hardrocker above, but don't think its an issue. Shoshone is just a strong civ, for a human player, Theres really no need to knock them down.
     
  13. Lyoncet

    Lyoncet Emperor

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    I haven't played them yet, but I think people may be underestimating Great Expanse by looking at it out of the context of the game. I find that a lot of times, there will be a city site that's just vastly superior to anything near it. But if I want to settle it in that optimal spot, I'll often need to buy out to the third ring to grab some vital resource or other important hex. Especially if I don't have Tradition. And while the cost for a tile or two isn't huge, it's not negligible, nor is the time saved by getting the tile developed early as opposed to waiting for it to expand naturally. Given how much more punishing the early-game economy is in BNW, that's a pretty significant advantage. Even if on paper, it's kind of ho-hum.

    Even in situations where you're not going to buy the tile, sometimes you can get an extra hammer or food for free just by having early access to the tile. I think that's a better way of evaluating the ability than looking at it in terms of "well you always end up with all you hexes filled anyways, so what's the big deal?"
     
  14. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    That would be a good way to look at it, except that it's the AI picking the tiles for you. You rarely get the third ring resources. It likes to pick the flat land in the second ring just like when it picks it for cultural expansion. I had a silver in the second ring that it didn't pick in my capital. And even after it had added several more tiles via culture, it still left the silver out. I ended up buying it because I dearly needed the happiness.
     
  15. Lyoncet

    Lyoncet Emperor

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    Oh. Well I stand corrected then.

    "Trust but verify" indeed. :crazyeye:
     
  16. HardRocker

    HardRocker Student.

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    That sounds almost like a special case. I played a game to the end as the Shoshone and it always gave me nearly all of the nearby resources just by founding the city. The only time it didn't is when here was cows in the 2nd ring and it gave me the wine nearby instead.

    Most of the time the ability is very nice to have, and it's good for just plopping a city down and getting all the territory around it, works well on crowded continents.
     
  17. eewallace

    eewallace King

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    I finished my first BNW game - cultural victory as Shoshone - and agree it needs to be nerfed. The pathfinder-to-crossbowman gave me 2 superpoweful explorer units very early in the game. I was on a big map so managed 6 ancient ruins. Got religion boost and first pantheon (very useful as I had 2 incense and a wine in my expanded city radius) and culture (went with liberty to get the worker/settler bonuses) and was basically unstoppable by mid game. Part of it was luck with a good starting position, but the upgraded pathfinders were really what made the most difference.
     
  18. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    I also plopped a city down on a jungled isthmus. The AI threw an arm of tiles out around the coast rather than pick up a forested gem tile in the third ring.

    I put another city in the desert near Russia. It picked up a bunch of tiles in the flat desert around the oases in the second ring, but it skipped a third ring stone tile between the city and Russia.

    In my experience, it definitely prefers the easy terrain over resources in rough terrain and will tend to grab resources on the outer ring only if they are on the easy terrain. It's exactly like how it picks tiles for cultural expansion.
     
  19. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    I got pretty much that from a random ruin assortment as Indonesia, and was lucky to run across that many ruins. Going for the easy, and obvious, pop grabs will hit your happiness when you want to be expanding, so has an inherent balancing factor.

    Ruins are, in general, balanced and players tend not to get too much of an advantage from them. Being able to choose between balanced options is hardly gamebreaking. Culture and faith boosts are both one-offs - they won't do a lot if you don't play to exploit them. An early pantheon on its own isn't that big a deal.
     
  20. Ryoga

    Ryoga King

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    The problem wit that is that at higher difficulties the AI starts with a scout on top of the warrior.

    So depending on maps and if you are unlucky you might end up without any ruin to find by the time you have your pathfinder, and this would turn an overpowered ability into a pretty useless one.
     

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