How to Nerf the Shoshone [Brainstorming]

[Resipsa]

As if it needs testing. Gimme a couple mins to start a new game.

Ok, pop,tech,culture,pop, culture, faith yep it needs nefring

first of all; population ruins super early aren't even that good because your are going to grow in 5 turns anyway. Pop ruins are good around t30 when your pop has grown abit. Culture, tech and faith(later on) is really good. But let's say you get Pottery, a Culture Ruin, a Pop Ruin from 4 pop to 5 pop, Archery, and an upgrade to a CB; that's a really good start for the Shoshone.

Compare that to Babylon early game that gets a Pop from 1 to 2, +80 gold, Barbarian Camp Location, upgrade to a bowman, and reveal map area. Around that same time you get an academy that pushes science way past what the Shoshone soon after. Which is better? Probably Babylon

 

[The A.K.T]

Too early to nerf, the Exspansion is not even out yet(for any of us)

 

[DeutschDachs]

I finished my first BNW game - cultural victory as Shoshone - and agree it needs to be nerfed. The pathfinder-to-crossbowman gave me 2 superpoweful explorer units very early in the game. I was on a big map so managed 6 ancient ruins. Got religion boost and first pantheon (very useful as I had 2 incense and a wine in my expanded city radius) and culture (went with liberty to get the worker/settler bonuses) and was basically unstoppable by mid game. Part of it was luck with a good starting position, but the upgraded pathfinders were really what made the most difference.

If it upgraded to a crossbowman i would call for a nerf too I don't think it's overly ridiculous though, the pathfinder is the same as having a lucky streak of ruins as any other civ, it's just guaranteed. More tiles is nice but hardly overpowered as a ua. They run out of their great bonuses really early

 

[eewallace]

Yeah they don't actually "upgrade" to anything, as in upgrading for gold. It is only through the ancient ruins that you can make them such a powerful starting unit. But don't underestimate that--2 of them (with a nice healing defense promotion also available early) can make you an exploring superpower in the early game--as noted, probably much better on big maps than small. Being able to simply REMOVE barbarian nuisances rather than hide from them is very satisfying, too.

 

[Arilian]

"As if it needs testing. Gimme a couple mins to start a new game.

Ok, pop,tech,culture,pop, culture, faith yep it needs nefring "

True. OP. And if it is another civ?

"Ok, pop, MAPS ,culture,pop, culture, faith yep IT NEEDS NERFING"

 

[Noxius]

Use your scout or w/e to go to the ruins and get a worker then just make farms around the city to make a good city early

 

[DeutschDachs]

Yeah they don't actually "upgrade" to anything, as in upgrading for gold. It is only through the ancient ruins that you can make them such a powerful starting unit. But don't underestimate that--2 of them (with a nice healing defense promotion also available early) can make you an exploring superpower in the early game--as noted, probably much better on big maps than small. Being able to simply REMOVE barbarian nuisances rather than hide from them is very satisfying, too.

Oh I was just referencing that they get turned into composite bowmen from ruins, not crossbowman. The later would really have its way in the ancient era haha

 

[FeiLing]

You can only get settlers/workers from ruins on settler difficulty

 

[MadMage86]

Cries for nerfs already?

Think on this - their bonus is good early game ONLY. Once those goody huts have been gobbled up, all they've got is a land-grab edge. They have to get out there, get an early lead with those scouts (which is not easy if your opponents scout aggressively, and I swear the AIs know where those huts are) and hope that nobody catches up to your momentum.

I do think the extra land causes them to roll high on the leaderboard, but since when has that thing meant jack? Who here has actually played out a 'time' victory type?

 

[El Caballerion]

Nobody better lay a finger on my Pathfinger.

 

[eewallace]

Oh I was just referencing that they get turned into composite bowmen from ruins, not crossbowman. The later would really have its way in the ancient era haha

Ah,yeah sorry. I meant comp-bowmen. X-bow would have been fun tho.

Reminds me of when Civ V first came out and needed a bit of tweaking -- I won a pangea game with a classical-era rifleman...

 

[CaptainUnknown]

Would you be happy if it upgraded into a spearman instead of the classical era comp-bow? It obviously can't upgrade in the normal archer as it's weaker. I personally haven't had any issues from Shoshone, but this change would stop any multiplayer comp-bow rushes in the ancient era.

As for picking ruins. there is nothing wrong with that as any civ can have that streak of luck as others have mentioned.

 

[steveg700]

Like so many nerf threads, it starts with the hasty assumption that everyone is on the same page, with no discussion of the issues. Which, of course, makes the call for nerfing seem kneejerk.

The pathfinder can't get everything from a particular ruin. He only gets certain options. This was my civ of choice for a first play of BNW, and even going all out scouring with a trio of pathfinders I got maybe five pulls from ruins. No faith. A couple of tech pulls. A couple of culture pulls. It did its job as a UU, but nothing to get bent ouf of shape about..

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Would you be happy if it upgraded into a spearman instead of the classical era comp-bow? It obviously can't upgrade in the normal archer as it's weaker. I personally haven't had any issues from Shoshone, but this change would stop any multiplayer comp-bow rushes in the ancient era.

As for picking ruins. there is nothing wrong with that as any civ can have that streak of luck as others have mentioned.

I don't think you would be able to do much with it in the ancient era, war-wise. If you pump out 3 Pathfinders, and manage to turn them all into Bowfinders, then you have to pump out a few warriors to go with it.

BTW, Pathfinders take longer to build than Warriors.

Early game economics being what they are, you probably can't afford the maintenance on that many units plus workers and monuments and all that jazz. You're going to fall behind.

 

[CaptainUnknown]

I don't think you would be able to do much with it in the ancient era, war-wise. If you pump out 3 Pathfinders, and manage to turn them all into Bowfinders, then you have to pump out a few warriors to go with it.

BTW, Pathfinders take longer to build than Warriors.

Early game economics being what they are, you probably can't afford the maintenance on that many units plus workers and monuments and all that jazz. You're going to fall behind.

Those are good points plus if you did decide to do a early game attack you would suffer some Diplomacy hits when you need friends the most. You could however kill enemy scouts and steal more ruins potentially.

Overall the Shoshone MUST be successful early game to have an above average mid/late game. If they miss a lot of ruins then they are just as average as any other civs. That's where the balance lies.

 

[CanaDutch]

In my game on Emperor I was only able to get 2 ruins (culture and faith). Though this can probably be blamed on me adding 3 extra civs on a standard map. The pathfinder is almost twice as expensive as a regular scout and I only found out later that they don't upgrade to composite bowman without a ruin . Now I'm using my scouts to pillage Assyria since Nineveh has Kilimanjaro within their borders which gives my scouts 3 movement points sometimes.

 

[FECAL_URGENCY]

The only reason everyone thinks the Shoshone need a nerf is because all of their bonuses are readily apparent in the first 5 turns of the game. Their bonuses are amazing very early on, but those bonuses fizzle out almost entirely and very quickly, and I think people are overestimating the effects of that early boost.

Is a composite bowman, a free tech, a couple population, and quicker access to your capital's luxuries going to give you a great start? Definitely. But now you're in the medieval era, you've found all the ruins and laid down all your major cities. What do you have? A small defensive bonus is all you have, for the rest of the game. Meanwhile, Ethiopia has a similar bonus but they've also got a full-fledged religion by then, for example.

 

[IAmOzymandias]

I played shoshone and was only able to choose each bonus one time. . . unless you mean each pathfinder only gets to choose once and then it's random after that for that unit. . .

Shoshone isn't OP, IMO. They're early game strong, but after classical they quickly become just another civ, especially if you're playing tall.

I suppose the only thing i'd suggest is a small rebalancing of the pathfinder's attack strength. . . maybe down to 7 or even 6. It kind of obsoletes early game melee units when the pathfinder is just as strong as a warrior. . . But maybe that was the point.

Consider, though, that unless you get the fast archer upgrade from a ruins (ie scout upgraded to archer) they obsolete and become full on useless on most map types, and there's nothing they do besides choosing bonuses that mounted units don't do better.

 

[OmniPotent42]

Still not as powerful as Atilla in the early game.

 

[Gamgee]

I love this unit!